[cgk]

your analysis is largely based on this idea that having an SD slot or providing a way to sync data locally is a contradiction to the rewriting of their OS -- to their re-targetting and re-imaginning their hardware.

Ridiculous.

Neither haviing a micro SD slot or writing an application to import and sync data from the Palm Desktop / Outlook would add much to the production hardware costs.

Doing it would have ensured high rates of purchasing from their existing user base -- empowering an explosive intial surge of Pre adoption, cementing the PRE's credibility.

That they haven't is mindless -- what imaginable benefit or gain offsets the comparable minimal costs ???

It's nothing to do with hardware or cost, it's because what they are doing is Paradigm shifting and when you shift Paradigm your supersupersuperrighness means that eventually everyone will accept the paradigm shift you have presented is the only way, the ONLY way. Desktop sync - that's so web 1.0, the cloud is all, the cloud solves all!

That's tongue in check - but we've seen it in action -

The iphone has no keyboard because a smartphone does not require a keyboard and that's why it doesn't have a keyboard because keyboards are old fashioned and not needed. That a lot of people would like an iphone with a keyboard is neither here or there. Palm is effectively run by a guy who spent 16 years learning the apple system for running companies. The apple system works well but it seems to based on the idea that "The customer is right when the customer agrees that we are right" and I think that's what we are seeing in action here. Is it hubris? maybe but if Palm makes a big bucket of cash, everyone and their dog will come out of the woodwork to say what an obvious idea it was to ditch the desktop - it's obvious! If it's a terrible terrible disaster, palm will quickly rush out a desktop sync and everyone will say it was a obvious disaster to ditch the desktop, terrible terrible idea.

Because you are entirely right - adding a SD slot is trivial, it's unit cost is trivial but it's exclusion is important because of what it says about the mindset of the company because I've thought about it and I've thought about it and I've thought about it - and I can't think of a single functional reason to exclude an SD slot.

I dunno - anyone? Has Palm provided a functional reason why the phone doesn't have expandable storage?

I can find this over at the Palm Infocenter and if it's right, it's through the looking glass stuff:

This regrettable omission was made for both size concessions as well as to give the user more value and convenience, as they would not have to rush out to purchase an "expensive" flash card to use in their new devices

http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9...ions-from-ces/

Well there you have it - removing the SD slot provides "value and convenience", it's almost Orwellian - removing customer choice increases the value and convenience to the customer. Obvious innit..

Doubleplusgood to you all.

[dwhitman]

For them to install software to make it accessible from the cloud, they would have to either have you open up certain ports/translations to the Internet for the Pre to access it (which is beyond most people), or install some sort of server software that checks in with a repository to relay the information a la GoToMyPC.

Not necessarily. I'm using CompanionLink for Google to sync my Palm Desktop to Google contacts and calendar. The install was fast and painless. As near as I can tell, it just uses the standard HTTP port 80 to communicate on. Which will be open in both directions for anyone using the web.

[dwhitman]

Contradicting myself. I do see one complication to getting your PC on the cloud.

Most home internet connections, and presumably the Pre will be on a dynamic IP address, and unless at least one end has a DNS entry, it's going to be hard to guarantee a connection can be initiated. Whenever one systems gets a new IP address, the other system can't find them. If both get new IP addresses before they can communicate, neither can initiate a session, and the link is broken.

The problem goes away if one or both systems has a DNS entry, but that does make the problem more involved than I thought it was.

[Toby]

The "cloud" is only a new idea to those who are too young to have endured mainframes. Sure, there are differences, but the bottom line is the same: when the connection goes down (and it will), you are screwed!

I think you are misinterpreting the cloud concept. There is no indication that if the connection goes down you will lose anything. SaaS is only one potential use of 'The Cloud'. It is by no means the only use.

Sure, the cloud makes it easier for sys admins to maintain software at a central location, and for companies to charge for their "service," but it means the user has far less control of the security, availability, ability to manipulate (i.e., apps), and speed of access of their data. The cloud compares to the PC like public transportation compares to your personal car (Anyone in Seattle who was stranded when the buses stopped running during the recent snow storm will understand.).

Don't conflate SaaS with 'The Cloud'. Again, the cloud is a network communications concept. It's simply an abstraction for some things going on between two endpoints that are too complicated to go into detail. It doesn't mean that the Pre will be a dumb terminal. It means it will be leveraging the Internet to gain data from multiple disparate sources.

I want the Pre badly, but lack of desktop synchronization is a show stopper. I deal with proprietary data that cannot be trusted to the unsecured internet, and my employer will not allow my personal smartphone to get access to the company networks over an unsecured wireless connection. Yet the value of my Outlook PIM data (e.g., meeting notice) depends on me having access to it on my PDA.

That will be the most interesting thing from my perspective as well. It's also what kept me from the iPhone. There are certain things I don't want on the Internet. I'm sure that a developer will come up with a solution. The main questions are who and when.

[cgk]

It's simply an abstraction for some things going on between two endpoints that are too complicated to go into detail.

That's partly my fault - I should have made it a bit clearly that SaaS is one application of the cloud not *the* cloud. I'm a bit baffled that we are still explaining local cache of data - I think a good percentage of the forum still think their phone will go blank as soon as the connection is lost.

[Pearl_Diva]

Interesting discussions.

I honestly think it was a mistake to not include a microSD slot. I also think they should allow the option to use desktop sync. Removing good usable features previously available to customers, even if this OS is new, isn't good IMO.

[Toby]

Not necessarily. I'm using CompanionLink for Google to sync my Palm Desktop to Google contacts and calendar. The install was fast and painless.

Except that it doesn't address the concern at hand, which is that the data shouldn't reside on an external server.

As near as I can tell, it just uses the standard HTTP port 80 to communicate on. Which will be open in both directions for anyone using the web.

Not exactly. Port 80 is not open to incoming connections on most firewalls. Your outgoing traffic goes out on port 80, but comes back as established session traffic on a port above 1023. Since it's tagged as being part of an established session, the 'firewall' allows the response back in. How much inspection it gives the packets is going to depend on the firewall. Most SOHO 'firewalls' will simply see if the session agrees with the translations and ports established with its original session negotiation.

GoToMyPC and LogMeIn function in a similar way. An application resides on the computer and initiates an outbound connection with their servers constantly, so all traffic is viewed as initiated from the inside of the network. Their servers then act as a proxy for the remote access. This is only slightly less disturbing from a security perspective, since the data theoretically only resides on their server for the period required to proxy it.

Contradicting myself. I do see one complication to getting your PC on the cloud.

Most home internet connections, and presumably the Pre will be on a dynamic IP address, and unless at least one end has a DNS entry, it's going to be hard to guarantee a connection can be initiated. Whenever one systems gets a new IP address, the other system can't find them. If both get new IP addresses before they can communicate, neither can initiate a session, and the link is broken.

The problem goes away if one or both systems has a DNS entry, but that does make the problem more involved than I thought it was.

That's less complicated than you think. DHCP leases are typically not expired that quickly. Many ISPs have extremely lenient policies with regard to DHCP and ARP caching. I'm on a 'dynamic' address at my home that has not changed in nearly four years. There are also DynDNS providers all over the place. You install an app that logs into their service every so often and confirms your current public IP and keeps the internet aware of it.

[morningstar1844#IM]

the whole paradigm shift is all great and wonderful. It is still has limits especially on top of not having a memory card for backups. Those with the 'you don't like it, go pound sand' can go pound sand yourselves. there's a reason people haven't gone to BB, win mob, symbian, and android. there's a few basic concepts that keep people with Palm. Much of which is taking them to the next generation with Palm. So they'd like to stay with Palm. There's no reason this big shift in syncing has to alienate the very same people who have been loyal palm users for all these years. There's no reason to alienate people who are still more desktop based than cloud based. To say because I'd this big shift, the phone is not for you and to deal with it is just as narrowminded as any ridiculous statement from iphone fanboys and the like. Idiots speak in absolutes, not believing in middle ground. We are a representative sample of palm users. Many. in fact most don't post on forums. So if there is a rather large contingent here that thinks a desktop sync is necessary, then imagine how many users there are out there who think the same way. And I'm sure many of them aren't as tech savvy as people on here are. I know the people I work with aren't and the all use PD. Heck, one still has dial up.

The Pre is supposed to be intuitive. Well it's not intuitive when you're forcing everyone to abandon the way they're used to doing things, especially when it works well for them.

I actually posted on the palm blog, but I wasn't surprised to not seet the post get approved. guess they felt it was too negative.

Paul Lauffer, who is responsible for the blog (at least he was) Was generous in posting negative blog's. I posted a lot of neg blog's; haven't been on their blog in over a year. It sometimes was taking up to 48 hours or so before some post's will be posted.

[Toby]

That's partly my fault - I should have made it a bit clearly that SaaS is one application of the cloud not *the* cloud.

Well, I realised what you meant, which is why I didn't call you out.

I'm a bit baffled that we are still explaining local cache of data - I think a good percentage of the forum still think their phone will go blank as soon as the connection is lost.

It's seeming that way. Just trying to help quell the hysteria.

[GeorgeP]

I think you are misinterpreting the cloud concept. There is no indication that if the connection goes down you will lose anything. SaaS is only one potential use of 'The Cloud'. It is by no means the only use.
... It's also what kept me from the iPhone. There are certain things I don't want on the Internet. I'm sure that a developer will come up with a solution. The main questions are who and when.

Not clear to me he was conflating SaaS with the "cloud." This thread is fundamentally about syncing with a desktop app vs a cloud-based analog. From that perspective, I think the points made are dead on.

I'm pretty sure the iPhone does desktop sync. My wife syncs her iPhone with Outlook on her desktop, using iTunes. But I agree, there are certain things I don't want on the internet either. I own a small business and we have confidential data that I wouldn't want to give custody to a third party that would keep it on the Internet.

[eekinsman]

That's partly my fault - I should have made it a bit clearly that SaaS is one application of the cloud not *the* cloud. I'm a bit baffled that we are still explaining local cache of data - I think a good percentage of the forum still think their phone will go blank as soon as the connection is lost.

Seriously, is it clear how much data will be cached locally? All of it? Some of it? Who decides, me, Palm? If access to ALL my pim data is prevented when a connection is lost, the phone may as well be blank. Oh and forgive my hysteria.

[GeorgeP]

I think the point is - it's delighting the new customer that palm is interested in. That's really what most of the debates here are about - they aren't really about hotsync or SD cards or anything like that - they are about loyalty and the relationship that has been built between the Palm OS community. There are those of us (and I'm in that camp) who think that Palm just doesn't care about the needs of legacy Palm OS users one iota and those who think that's complete wrong (and of course people in the middle). ...

Interesting post, but I think it is simpler than all that.

From Palm's perspective I think they omitted these to make it simply easier to sell the next version of the Pre. Seems like Rubinstein is applying the approach used at Apple. iPod's don't have SD cards, and increased memory is a main reason many people upgrade iPods. Also Apple didn't include things like 3G in the first iPhone so they could make a bigger splash with the second iPhone.

From the users' perspectives (at least for me) I don't think it is about loyalty, I just wouldn't get the Pre if it doesn't have desktop sync (or some other way of addressing the security concerns I have with what I've seen so far).

I think the Pre is a great device and should do very well. I'm looking forward to hopefully a more commercial-grade webOS device in the future. Until then, I'm perfectly happy with my Treo Pro.

[dbpaddler]

I think the point of buying anything else but an iphone is because it's not an iphone and not following the apple credo. so when you make something more like an iphone you push away the crowd that is looking for an alternative to the iphone. So would you rather try and turn those who have or want an iphone or get & retain those that like the new interface, bells and whistles that don't want an iphone as well as the ones that are looking at the iphone and not sold on it?

[cgk]

Interesting post, but I think it is simpler than all that.

From Palm's perspective I think they omitted these to make it simply easier to sell the next version of the Pre. Seems like Rubinstein is applying the approach used at Apple. iPod's don't have SD cards, and increased memory is a main reason many people upgrade iPods. Also Apple didn't include things like 3G in the first iPhone so they could make a bigger splash with the second iPhone.

True - that's another good reason.

[dbpaddler]

why is that a good reason? One reason why people don't buy ipods and iphones is because of Apple's restrictive and proprietary ways. It's actually a good way to alienate customers that actually know something. And if the iphone were it's only real competition, I would kind of agree it's a good reason, but the Storm, Touch, gPhone, Instinct/Glyde and such are also competition that have microSD expansion.

I can't speak for others, but I will think a lot less of Palm if their goal is to become more Apple like with regards to restrictive features. The death of the POS kills one reason to remain loyal. If they do the above I'll have zero reasons to be loyal and will most likely shop elsewhere for future phones (after giving the Pre a shot of course since I can always sell it and go back to the Centro).

True - that's another good reason.

[cyndy]

FWIW, the following was at the bottom of an email i got from markspace yesterday. looks like they're open to suggestions.

Palm Pre Coming Soon
Palm announced last week the upcoming release of the Palm Pre, a powerful new touchscreen phone with a revolutionary way of accessing and presenting your information.
New features in the Palm Pre include the ability to easily switch between various running applications, enhanced functionality for contacts and calendars, a handy notification bar, web connected programs, grouped message threads by contacts, and email support for Outlook, Gmail, Yahoo and AOL.

If you'd like Mark/Space to create products for the Palm Pre or T-Mobile G1, let us know.

[GeorgeP]

why is that a good reason? One reason why people don't buy ipods and iphones is because of Apple's restrictive and proprietary ways. It's actually a good way to alienate customers that actually know something. And if the iphone were it's only real competition, I would kind of agree it's a good reason, but the Storm, Touch, gPhone, Instinct/Glyde and such are also competition that have microSD expansion.

I can't speak for others, but I will think a lot less of Palm if their goal is to become more Apple like with regards to restrictive features. The death of the POS kills one reason to remain loyal. If they do the above I'll have zero reasons to be loyal and will most likely shop elsewhere for future phones (after giving the Pre a shot of course since I can always sell it and go back to the Centro).

There are two separate issues I think you are conflating.

1) As a consumer, do I want SD expansion?
2) Is it good business/product strategy for Palm to omit SD expansion?

As a consumer...yes I'd prefer SD expansion. That is a separate issue from whether it is good business/product strategy for Palm to omit the SD expansion.

First of all, I don't think Apple's ways alienate others as much as you. While the iPhone is not for me, it has highest customer satisfaction ratios and fastest growing market share of all the "smartphones". Second, ultimately Apple's goal (as should be Palm's) is to maximize revenue, not minimize alienation. e.g., better (from a business strategy perspective) to have a customer buy the Pre 1 and Pre 2 and be only 70% satisfied, than to only buy the Pre 1 and be 95% satisfied.

[Toby]

Not clear to me he was conflating SaaS with the "cloud."

How else is one supposed to interpret the mainframe comparison? Cloud-based syncing does not de facto equate to cloud computing.

This thread is fundamentally about syncing with a desktop app vs a cloud-based analog.

Yes, and that's why comparing it to the mainframe world is a bit off base. There was no syncing in the classic mainframe days. All processing was done on the mainframe with only bits on a screen showing up on the terminal.

From that perspective, I think the points made are dead on.

Except that the mainframe comparison only holds up when SaaS is what you're referring to. Even then it gets a bit shaky in that SaaS isn't necessarily all processed at the head-end.

I'm pretty sure the iPhone does desktop sync. My wife syncs her iPhone with Outlook on her desktop, using iTunes. But I agree, there are certain things I don't want on the internet either. I own a small business and we have confidential data that I wouldn't want to give custody to a third party that would keep it on the Internet.

Sorry I wasn't explicit. The iPhone does have desktop sync capabilities, but it does not have an application like Pocket Quicken where I can enter debit card transactions so that I can sync them up with Quicken on the desktop. iPhone users that I know dismiss this concern by saying that one can sign up for Quicken's web service. However, then I add an additional potential hole into my financial data (my bank being one that already exists).

[Q]

Seems like Rubinstein is applying the approach used at Apple. iPod's don't have SD cards, and increased memory is a main reason many people upgrade iPods.

True--though the iPod never had an expansion slot. That's a bit different than going from having one to not. And plenty of Palm users have upgraded for increased onboard memory, with or without expansion slots (it was definitely a factor in 3 of my upgrades over the years).

[Q]

That's why I think the MyPalm PIM service (if it exists) will be free. It would be competing with the free Google, Yahoo and Live offerings, so they will probably provide calendar and tasks for free with a lot of premium add-on services.

It's come up before that someone has to underwrite the costs involved; since I don't see Palm doing that, I think it's more likely that they'd use a rebranded offering from someone else--possibly ad-supported.