[Preemptive]

On the User Group thread, Shuswap raised questions about Freenode

I don't know much about this -- or how much it will matter to people here -- but I thought that it would be worth bringing to everyone's attention that at least some of the people from freenode have chosen to start a new service: https://libera.chat/news/welcome-to-libera-chat.

Edit: for the sake of balance, here's a link to the other side of the story: https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss

And here's El Reg's take on the situation: https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/...staff_resigns/

It appears that webOS Ports has reserved channels on the libera.chat alternative and Herrie agreed to ask a colleague to reserve #webOS for us.

Jonwise80 has suggested SimpleChat / Discord as another alternative.

The three main questions seem to be:
A) Why leave?
B) If leaving, where to go?
C) how to back up / take the logs with us and leave a forwarding address

The last point seems fairly easy to accomplish as the logs are made by webOS Ports and each has a public URL, so a quick sweep with wget can likely do the job easily. We can leave a final notice about a future chat venue, possibly reposting it from time to time if passing people add further comments.

So I expect the debate will mostly be around the first two items.

[Preemptive]

(edit of IRC discussion, 23rd May 2021)
<Preemptive> 5.1. Use of Freenode IRC for discussion
<codepoet80> Sure! Motion to move the user's group to Discord/SimpleChat :-)
<nomad84> I agree with codepoet80. It works so much better on both new and retro devices.
<Preemptive> Just to kick off, Topic for #webos is: Unofficial webOS dev discussion | Please direct Enyo discussion to #EnyoJS | Touchpad discussion goes to #touchpad | Source of truth: http://developer.palm.com | Forget the content of a conversation? Archives are here: Index of /livelogs/webos/ * Topic for #webos set by Adora (Thu Jan 26 00:17:54 2012)
<OneLastTry> I had to get help to try to get on here with step by step instructions which took some tries. Otherwise I would not be present right now.
<Preemptive> Historically, this has been the home for discussion and moving should be considered carefully as it could be the equivalent of broken links on the web
<codepoet80> Understood, but of the historical participants, how many are left?
<Herrie> Just us in general
<Preemptive> Moreover, LuneOS discussion also takes place here and we should probably consult with that project on there views, plans and intentions as the current discussion taking place here is essentially a maintenance effort until LuneOS is a viable daily driver. Palm and legacy webOS are not coming back in the old forms
<Herrie> We have backup on the new chat stuff that was founded by the ex Freenode people
<Herrie> libra it's called I think
<Herrie> We're keeping an eye on the developments for now
<Herrie> Wrt freenode
<Herrie> Might be good to "claim" #webos on libra
<Preemptive> Herrie: OK, if that's a viable project, then it's an option. I suppose we should lay out reasons to depart Freenode first. The most obvious being if the service folds.
<codepoet80> I have been monitoring this channel regular for two months. There is no activity on a daily basis.
<Herrie> I can ask the guy who claimed #webos-ports and #webos-ports-dev to do that
<Preemptive> herrie: Good point. Are you able to do that?
<Herrie> Preemptive: I can ask the guy who did it for the other channels
<nomad84> my client is always online here for a few years, the majority of the discussions are the meetups
<Preemptive> Herrie: Thanks.
<Preemptive> I did not get the impression that Freenode was about to fold and the owner's statement seemed to indicate that this was a misunderstanding or over-reaction. Obviously, the Register article gave me a bit more reason to pause, but what is the threat considered to be here?
<Preemptive> For a bit of clarity, I'm thinking we discuss: A) Why leave? B) Where to go? and C) how to back up / take the logs with us and leave a forwarding address
<codepoet80> I think this is less about freenode and more about using a system where there are actually users
<Preemptive> codepoet80: Do you mean total users or webOS-interested users? Because the latter is pretty few now
<codepoet80> Active participating users in our discussion
<Preemptive> This channel was mainly used by 'techy' webOS types and may be an old 'bookmark' people might return to to find we are still going...
<nomad84> the SimpleChat group is all about webOS
<codepoet80> Instead of making a decision now, why don't we try the new system for a month or two,
<Preemptive> But we could leave a forwarding address...
<codepoet80> We can have someone monitoring the old channel, so we don't miss anyone, and send folks over to simple chat for a few meetings. Then decide which we like better for our community
<Preemptive> codepoet80: I think that if we have a back up of the logs and "So long and thanks for all the Freenode. We are now found at [channel]" would be sufficient...as the last entry that is...
<codepoet80> Agree
<nomad84> I can setup a bot for redirection in case if we don't want to change our beloved topic
<codepoet80> Heart emoji
<nomad84> Topic set by Adora on 26 January 2012, 01:17:54
<nomad84> it's going to be 10 years old soon
<Preemptive> So my question is, why leave? I've only just skimmed the material. I know there are technical issues with logs from time to time, but I assume that wasn't the freenode service itself. Is it a technical question or an access issue or some (small p) political objection to the owner?
<codepoet80> I think it's a user experience question. This old system is not easy to use for new users, the proposed approach is much more likely to attract participation
<nomad84> simplechat has a more vibrant webOS community
<OneLastTry> To be open, I have wanted to join this for months just to participate and no so much contribute as I don't know much. I tried going off of the Mazzinia post from page 7 with those instructions and never was able to get it to make sense to me at all. Plus I think it could shy away other non-tech but WebOS loving users.
<Preemptive> OneLastTry: I have to reference that as I reinstalled a few months back and keep forgetting to tell Hexchat to remember my pw. As I'm registered, I put in the line: [/]msg NickServ identify [yourpasswordhere]
<Preemptive> then the join webOS command.
<Preemptive> OneLastTry: What client do you use?
<codepoet80> That extra prompt helped me today! But simple chat actually has a GUI for logging in...
<OneLastTry> XChat Azure from the Mac App Store. I tried going off the https://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration step by step and it never made sense to me, as I was like where do
<OneLastTry> I go / do all this lol.
<Preemptive> OK. So at the moment, it seems the reasons to leave are a) uncertainty about the future of Freenode & b) better interface elsewhere.
<OneLastTry> (Shoutout to CodePoet) for the link to that and his step by step. http://wosa.link/t.php?am9ud2lzZXxvMzQ0OWNkOA
<codepoet80> Happy to help, probably fair to point out that you got that help on simple chat :-)
<OneLastTry> Also, just to throw in I tried to register my ILovePeaches username and never got the email to finalize the username to my yahoo email, so then made this OneLastTry to a gmail account and it worked, I even checked my spelling 4x over, spam folder, etc and it never came
<Preemptive> And we have two suggested possibilities for where to go which are: Libera.​Chat (freenode fork?) and SimpleChat.
<OneLastTry> Yep, did get the help in simple chat! Which I got working on my Veer, Pre 3, TouchPad and now Mac.
<Preemptive> I think backing up the logs should be fairly easy with something like wget
<Herrie> Well the logs are hosted by ka6sox not by Freenode
<Herrie> ka6sox is admin of webos internals and ports infrastructure
<Herrie> So those are safe and secure in general
<Preemptive> Herrie: Right - hence the logging problems not being a freenode issue I think. So they can be assume to be safe, but they all have URLs and are just text, so anyone wanting to make a 2nd backup can do so.
<Preemptive> *assumed
<Herrie> Yes not a freenode issue
<Herrie> Issue with logger tool on our infra
<Preemptive> At the moment, I'm thinking we move this to a thread on WN and discuss the various aspects there for a bit, then come back here to narrow down the choices and make some decisions.
<Preemptive> One other point is 'fragmentation'
<Preemptive> I think that a future of webOS that resembles the past is only to be found in LuneOS at this time
<Preemptive> So close ties with webOS ports is important
<codepoet80> Again I think my main point is to go where there are active users. We have discussion on simple chat if not daily at least weekly. If we point users there we don't have to worry about fragmentation.
<codepoet80> But I am okay to move this discussion to the forums and move to other topics, for the sake of everyone's time
<Preemptive> OK, so I'll set up a thread with the three questions upthread if that's OK with everybody.
<Preemptive> What title for this thread? The future of Freenode webOS discussion?
<bughi1980> sounds fine
<Preemptive> Maybe "Debate the future of Freenode webOS discussion" ?
<Preemptive>27th June 2021. 1700GMT See you next month and on the forums!

[jonwise80]

Here's my take on the first two questions:

A) Why leave?

- The only time the #webos channel on IRC has activity is the monthly meetings. Literally nothing else happens there -- it gives the perception that there's no one left in this community when you log-in and see nothing happening. A lot of folks monitor it, but don't participate regularly. In contrast, SimpleChat has been relatively vibrant. Activity isn't quite daily, but its definitely weekly. We answer questions for newer users, we discuss the platform, and we have... a community. IRC hasn't had that in years. Literally.

- IRC isn't a good user experience, or welcoming for new users. Its difficult to get logged in, clients are primitive by today's standards, and you have to be a power user to set-up monitoring -- otherwise, you only see activity if you're watching it to make sure your client hasn't been booted/disconnected. Even if you want to be a part of the community there, its really hard. And that's speaking as a software architect. By contrast, SimpleChat is easy to use on all webOS devices, and mirrors the conversation to Discord, which is easy to use on any modern device. You don't miss messages, because you get notifications even when you're offline -- its a modern experience on an 11-year old platform, that even a novice can pick up easily.

- Related to the above, but separate from it. We won't attract new members to the community if the tools are hostile. Having to know the "secret handshake" and special time to log-in to IRC to find out what's going on with other users is a good way to keep this platform obscure and un-findable. Retro computing is having a renaissance right now. People are looking for alternatives to the Apple and Google duopoly, and while webOS may be on its last legs, attracting new developers to webOS and LuneOS are a good way to keep it alive -- but only if people can find us. A conversation that happens in an obscure, rarely used channel only once a month is not one that welcomes new users. SimpleChat and Discord are lively and relevant.

B) If leaving, where to go?

I'm not sure why the Freenode fork was raised as an option. A fork of a bad user experience that solves none of its problems but is even more obscure is not a real option at all.
Discord is where virtually every "nerd community" is in 2021, and SimpleChat let's webOS users participate. The API is simple (hence the name) and it would be trivial to make a client for LuneOS too. And there's an active developer building it that actually cares about this platform (me!) If there's features we're missing to support our community, I'll build them. Will anyone in the Libera effort do the same for webOS?

[nomad84]

I’m a long time IRC user (20+ years). The protocol and most of its platforms are at their winter. I think I will be one of the last ones disconnecting, but there is barely any activity anywhere there.

My client is always online on #webos, just like another dozen users or so. I have to agree with @jonwise80, there is nothing happening there besides the meetup logs. The discord channel and SimpleChat are a whole lot more alive. There are day to day webOS discussions, with users and devs alike.

I support the move to SimpleChat.

[mazzinia]

May I take a different approach ?
As far as I know irc can be mirrored to discord, too, the same way simplechat is doing now. Why not adding a bot on irc to do that, thus keeping the discord as central hub, but allowing also irc to integrate ?
Is this equivalent of saying "lets move to discord" ? maybe. But this would also give the most flexibility


https://github.com/reactiflux/discord-irc

this one I'm told working quite well

[Preemptive]

May I take a different approach ?
As far as I know irc can be mirrored to discord, too, the same way simplechat is doing now. Why not adding a bot on irc to do that, thus keeping the discord as central hub, but allowing also irc to integrate ?
Is this equivalent of saying "lets move to discord" ? maybe. But this would also give the most flexibility


https://github.com/reactiflux/discord-irc

this one I'm told working quite well

I was just messing about looking for a Lineage image for the N4 (not supported any more, but apparently I can build one - gulp!) and they are also on Libera.chat

I was actually looking at this stuff last year for another project. I think the candidates were Whatsapp, Slack, Discord and one called Zulip. I don't know much about chat apps - they look mostly the same except different colours. I know Slack is IRC with addons, I wasn't impressed by Discord & the owner of Whatsapp gives me pause. Zulip was my preference as though the free version was limited, it was OSS & could be deployed at scale by someone with a server and a bit of expertise. But this is basically a version of Slack (I think a little better) and has channels and topics within them, so is somewhere between a chat app and the forum. It might be a good pick if starting from scratch, but we already have this forum and are really only looking for chat I think.

So maybe I'm just unaware of the special features that make these other chat apps better than IRC, but I'm not that bothered. I would agree that something accessible from a webOS device is good (wIRC is a thing), so if a SimpleChat interface to libera is possible, then it enables us to be on a platform with webOS Ports, using a client that others may prefer.

It's worth noting that the IRC channel used to be open until there was a rash of spamming and drive-by abuse. That is why registration and logging in is now required. We could consider an open channel and a private one or perhaps the chosen platform would have a login as a default, yet easy to do.

[jonwise80]

I would agree that something accessible from a webOS device is good (wIRC is a thing), so if a SimpleChat interface to libera is possible, then it enables us to be on a platform with webOS Ports, using a client that others may prefer.

I really feel like you're not listening by continuing to suggest an alternate IRC server. Bottom line: there is no active community on IRC; there is an active community on SimpleChat/Discord. Why would we ignore the active community in favor of an alternate IRC server?

Why not adding a bot on irc to do that, thus keeping the discord as central hub, but allowing also irc to integrate ?

If someone wants to add a bot to mirror from Discord to the old IRC, on the off chance that someone stumbles on that channel or pulls it out of an old bookmark, I'll support that integration in the Discord server.

[mrhall17]

I’m a long time IRC user (20+ years). The protocol and most of its platforms are at their winter. I think I will be one of the last ones disconnecting, but there is barely any activity anywhere there.

My client is always online on #webos, just like another dozen users or so. I have to agree with @jonwise80, there is nothing happening there besides the meetup logs. The discord channel and SimpleChat are a whole lot more alive. There are day to day webOS discussions, with users and devs alike.

I support the move to SimpleChat.

SimpleChat...Bam! It's that Simple

-- Sent from my Palm TouchPad using Forums

[Shuswap]

Sorry I missed the meetup. My Sundays alternate between quiet and busy.

Why Leave?

I like IRC, but I agree that it's not particularly friendly to new users, and it is clear that it has been an obstacle for some of the people who have wanted to participate in the meetups.

If Leaving, Where to Go?

It would be a good idea to connect up with an active forum. However, Discord appears to be a proprietary network using a proprietary framework on centralized servers. I prefer open source solutions and I wonder if that might be behind Preemptive's hesitation? Having said that, I have a Discord account, because several projects that I've been interested in have channels (I can't bring myself to call them servers when they're not) there.

Can't the IRC, wherever it is, be fully connected to Discord (and by doing that to SimpleChat)? I was on the PinePhone Discord channel for a while and it seemed that a lot of people were commenting from IRC, though they might just have been connecting their IRC clients to Discord. I'm not sure. In any case, projects like this (https://github.com/reactiflux/discord-irc) seem to suggest fully connected servers/channels are possible.

If that could be done, users could choose whether to use IRC, Discord, or SimpleChat. The benefits of that approach would be: a) ease of access for users; b) redundancy, which is never a bad thing.

[mazzinia]

Hello Shuswap , I think the discussion originated from the freenode current turmoil and people moving to libera.

[jonwise80]

I think the discussion originated from the freenode current turmoil and people moving to libera.

The discussion originated because we have an active community on SimpleChat/Discord and we're trying to connect them, but the barrier to entry for IRC is too high and we aren't a big enough community to split it into "comfortable using IRC (circa 1998) but are rarely active" and "comfortable using modern software and are regularly active" camps.
I'll support mirroring to IRC, but I propose moving the user group to where there are actually users.

The fact that Freenode is in disarray is a contributing factor, but not the key issue.

[Chairman Honeycrisp]

Hey folks,

Unfortunately I have nothing to contribute to this discussion but I just wanted to say it's nice to see some activity in here after all these years. Unfortunately all my webOS devices have since given up the ghost, and the Nexuses I purchased to try LuneOS on were rather shortlived as well, but I still have happy memories being a part of this community and using webOS.

Hope everyone is doing well!