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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    Perhaps a pivotCE article is in order (and notes in the Internals wiki). How to make your app available as a default option (and how to patch other apps for this).
    Understand that patching other apps to handle launch parameters is not as simple as making them full screen. You have to actually make the code changes required to handle the incoming parameters and do something with them in the app. If an app wasn't coded for this, it will require developing a good understanding of the app and making the required changes. I think writing an article would not be helpful to someone that doesn't have the skills needed to do so, but a development guide for devs that have not done this particular thing might be helpful.
    Preemptive likes this.
  2.    #82  
    Summary of the meeting of December 17th at 1700 GMT / UTC.

    **PLEASE NOTE: NOTHING HERE SHOULD BE TAKEN AS A PROMISE AND NO TIME LINES WILL BE MADE PUBLIC. ANY PROGRESS WILL BE HELPED IF MORE PEOPLE OFFER ASSISTANCE.**
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    • 1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees.
      There were 4 attendees. The meeting was chaired by Preemptive.
    • 2. Any proposed updates to the aims or rules of the group
      Though the intention is clear, the group currently has no formal aims or rules. Misj referred to the statement of the webOS Museum as an example of aims.Preemptive proposed that while meetings would remain public, those contributing to projects would qualify as members. If any issues arose that required a group vote, members would be entitled to vote. It was agreed that it was still too early to formalise anything.
    • 3. Possible selection of officers or area contacts.
      Preemptive suggested some possible roles for members who would be experts or co-ordinators of particular areas the group was working in. It was again agreed that it was too early to formalise anything.
    • 4. Progress reports
      • 4.1. New browser (for TP only). (nizovn)
        No report.
      • 4.2. Legacy browser patch. (Misj, Shuswap)
        Misj reported that no progress had been made on a phone version of the TP patch, but the existing work remains useful. Users can define their own filters.
      • 4.3. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito)
        No Report.
      • 4.4. Updated location service. (Misj, mazzinia)
        No Report.
      • 4.5. Fix the webos internals patch feed or manage it manually. (novaldex, Herrie) > Progress Report
        No Report.
      • 4.6. webOS Nation App gallery submission and access. (Preemptive)
        Preemptive will try to chase this up again.
      • 4.7. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation* (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS & 3rd party sources such as webOS101). (All members in the sub-sections)
        It is hoped that sub-projects can be integrated into the main project as they mature. Misj has been backing up https://kylemaas.github.io/luna-sysmgr/ Herrie reported the original author is sometimes on the webOS Ports IRC channel.
        • 4.7.1. Use the webOS internals wiki for technical information. (novaldex, Preemptive, bbito & Shuswap) > Progress Report.
          As the wiki is now fixed, the updating process will be handled by the documentation project.
        • 4.7.2. Find / improve documentation of mojo / enyo (Misj)
          There is already has a good collection of mojo / Enyo documents at: Index of /webos/documentation but there may be more to find.
        • 4.7.3. git.webos-internals.org has gone for a long time, so maybe some sources of preware apps are lost.. would be nice to recover it too (likely solution in post 15). https://github.com/wosigh (Herrie)
          This item can also be absorbed to the larger project, though it's not yet clear where the archived material will be hosted..
        • 4.7.4. On device Help System..
          No Report.
        • 4.7.5. Old domains associated with webOS. (Preemptive)
          It was suggested to use the webOScenter.com domain for app development resources and documentation. Possibly, it could become the domain name for the webOS Museum project.
      • 4.8. Lobbying TCL for an open Palm device. (Preemptive)
        No report. (Preemptive will give it another go)
      • 4.9. Indexing the FTP app source. (JVLebbink1)
        JVLebbink1 reported on the progress of indexing old apps and data from the old catalog in the webOS museum. Issues around this were discussed. It was suggested a further effort to get hosting permission from the original devs or sending apps to archive.org
    • 5. Discussion of other items
      • 5.1. webOS time service issue (Network Time not keeping clocks accurate - webOS Nation Forums)
        A small group of forum users have volunteered to test new code for a network time service check.
      • 5.2. Device back up options.
        No Discussion.
      • 5.3. Default apps: Can we patch the system to give us more default options? (e.g. Qupzilla, LuneTube) (see post 69)
        It was noted that apps could be coded or even patched to automatically register as default app options for various MIME types ot urls. This can be complex, so it was hoped a tutorial on this could be produced.
      • 5.4. Krack hack
        The necessary work to fix this has been identified, but no one has come forward to do it.
      • 5.5. App stores discussion.
        No discussion.
      • 5.6. Can we document any hardware upgrades for legacy devices to increase or prolong their function?. (yes, it's a long shot!)
        Though a minor consideration and unlikely to be attempted by most users, it was suggested that a list thread of hardware upgrades could be made.
    • 6. Any other business.
      Misj reported partially fixing Bing maps. The patch is on the service pack list and could be added to the updated meta-doctor. The patch does not support version 8, but Misj does not plan to work further on this. pc-world has been patching the Qt plugin to enable the webOS clipboard.
    • 7. Date of next meeting.
      21st January 2018 1700GMT.

    The full log of the sixth meeting is here: #webos log: SUN Dec 17.


    A LIST OF USER GROUP PROJECTS
    Last edited by Preemptive; 12/27/2017 at 09:19 PM.
  3.    #83  
    Proposed agenda for Meeting No. 7 of The webOS User Group, on January 21st 2018 at 1700 GMT / UTC.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (Feel free to post if you think of anything that can be added)



    As notes to myself,
    • I think the Open webOS site is still down.
    • Should the webOS Qt5 plugin become a separate project? Maybe it would depend on how many want to work on it with NIN_ru. Note that studying for exams means NIN_ru will probably not be updating this or Qupzilla for a few months.
    • Should the app indexing project be renamed as the webOS Museum?
    • Not sure that I want to make the agenda even longer, but maybe under section 5, we should discuss a testing team and general testing protocols?
    Last edited by Preemptive; 12/27/2017 at 09:34 PM.
    NuclearKev likes this.
  4. #85  
    Hi Group,
    My company has been short-staffed and I have not been able to touch webOS or other 'extracurricular' projects in the last couple of months and likely not until late February at the earliest. I have not even booted up my linux box to work on
    4.3. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito)
    and it is well outside my comfort zone anyway, so you're not losing any makefile expertise by my unavailability. I would like to get back to this when I can again find time, but if anyone else wants to step-up and join the project to move it forward I would be the opposite of disappointed...
    I'll pop-in to the meeting if I can tomorrow, but in case I can't make it I wanted to put this out there.
    Preemptive likes this.
  5.    #86  
    We all have lives, so no one should beat themselves up about the pace of work.

    I think the key is to continue making progress rather than performing monthly miracles. In part the IRC meetings are more about maintaining attention and focus to avoid our projects just gathering dust.

    As I write, I'm about to start the next one...

    Quote Originally Posted by bbito View Post
    Hi Group,
    My company has been short-staffed and I have not been able to touch webOS or other 'extracurricular' projects in the last couple of months and likely not until late February at the earliest. I have not even booted up my linux box to work on and it is well outside my comfort zone anyway, so you're not losing any makefile expertise by my unavailability. I would like to get back to this when I can again find time, but if anyone else wants to step-up and join the project to move it forward I would be the opposite of disappointed...
    I'll pop-in to the meeting if I can tomorrow, but in case I can't make it I wanted to put this out there.
  6.    #87  
    **PLEASE NOTE: NOTHING HERE SHOULD BE TAKEN AS A PROMISE AND NO TIME LINES WILL BE MADE PUBLIC. ANY PROGRESS WILL BE HELPED IF MORE PEOPLE OFFER ASSISTANCE.**
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Summary of Meeting No. 7 of The webOS User Group, on January 21st 2018 at 1700 GMT / UTC.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    • 1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees.
      There were 8 attendees. The meeting was chaired by Preemptive.
    • 2. Any proposed updates to the aims or rules of the group
      There was discussion of the relationship between the webOS museum project and the webOS User Group. Further discussion will happen next month.
    • 3. Possible selection of officers or area contacts.
      No action was taken here.
    • 4. Progress reports
      • 4.1. New browser (for TP only). (nizovn)
        Updates have yet to be released, but support has been added for context menus on long tap. A close button has been added to the window frame, so bookmarks/history can be used now. Rotation support is planned. A long term goal is hardware acceleration and a new touch UI. Nivozn also plans to separate out the Qt libraries, making them available to other apps. Suggestions were offered as to the best place in the file system for these libraries. There was brief discussion of where to host the app, given that it requires dbus (and will need the separated Qt5 in future). The pivotCE feed currently does not support dependencies. This will be looked into.
      • 4.2. Legacy browser patch. (Misj, Shuswap)
        This is still Touchpad only. It was suggested that a list of 'web-streamlining' services could be made to encourage users to create more filters for this patch.
      • 4.3. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito)
        No Report.
      • 4.4. Updated location service. (Misj, mazzinia)
        No Report.
      • 4.5. Fix the webos internals patch feed or manage it manually. (novaldex, Herrie) > Progress Report
        No Report.
      • 4.6. webOS Nation App gallery submission and access. (Preemptive)
        There has been no progress here and it was suggested that first the exact problem need to be specified so clear information can be passed to the webOS Nation admins.
      • 4.7. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation* (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS, git.webos-internals.org & 3rd party sources such as webOS101). (All members in the sub-sections)
        • 4.7.1. Documentation policy.
          No Report.
        • 4.7.2. Find / improve documentation of mojo / enyo (Misj)
          A lot of material has been collected, but requires some sorting and formatting. An index of links was proposed as a first step to aid accessibility. Summarising information from the forums may be a future step.
        • 4.7.3. On device Help System.
          There has been no progress here. There was some discussion about how requests were formed and / or dealt with by the old server and if this could be reproduced or if the original files could be used as the basis for a different source of help.
      • 4.8. Lobbying TCL for an open Palm device. (Preemptive)
        No Report.
      • 4.9. Indexing the FTP app source. (JVLebbink1)
        Misj offered a closed beta test of the App museum. It was proposed to use the 'missing apps' category to begin a search for these.
    • 5. Discussion of other items
      • 5.1. webOS time service issue (Network Time not keeping clocks accurate - webOS Nation Forums)
        It may be possible to use a HOSTS file entry to redirect time.palm.com to a host on pool.ntp.org: the internet cluster of ntp servers dkirker may try to work on a an ntp daemon in optware as another solution.
      • 5.2. Device back up options.
        A couple of 'off-the-shelf' solutions have been suggested. No one had any comments on them. There was very brief discussion of data restoration methods.
      • 5.3. Default app options (e.g. Qupzilla, LuneTube) - possible patching / tutorial on this (see post 69)
        It has been established that apps simply need to be correctly coded for the system to offer them as options for the default MIME-type handler. Work has been done that may enable this in a future version of Qupzilla. webOS passes a json argument when launching an app.
      • 5.4. Krack hack
        Krack Hack. It was mentioned that this can be fixed, but hasn't been. It appears that webOS devices are vulnerable to Meltdown and Spectre. Though the chips are old, they are Cortex8. webOS is also vulnerable to the 'dirtycow' hack, but this would need to be delivered by a malicious app. This can be fixed by recompiling the kernel with a patch. A thread on vulnerabilities will be made.
      • 5.5. App stores discussion.
        Not discussed.
    • 6. Any other business.
      As members begin to test new fixes, apps & services, it was suggested that a simple testing protocol could be made to streamline and standardise this process. No comments were offered.
    • 7. Date of next meeting.
      18th February 2018, 1700 GMT.


    The full log of the seventh meeting is here: #webos log: SUN Jan 21.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 01/22/2018 at 07:08 AM.
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  7.    #88  
    Ugh! i just realised the meeting is today and I haven't even done an agenda! I guess it's basically the same as before:

    Proposed agenda for Meeting No. 8 of The webOS User Group, on February 18th 2018 at 1700 GMT / UTC.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    As notes to myself,
    • I think the Open webOS site is still down.
    • Should the webOS Qt5 plugin become a separate project? Maybe it would depend on how many want to work on it with NIN_ru. Note that studying for exams means NIN_ru will probably not be updating this or Qupzilla for a few months.
    • Should the app indexing project be renamed as the webOS Museum?
    • Not sure that I want to make the agenda even longer, but maybe under section 5, we should discuss a testing team and general testing protocols?
  8.    #89  
    **PLEASE NOTE: NOTHING HERE SHOULD BE TAKEN AS A PROMISE AND NO TIME LINES WILL BE MADE PUBLIC. ANY PROGRESS WILL BE HELPED IF MORE PEOPLE OFFER ASSISTANCE.**

    Summary of Meeting No. 8 of The webOS User Group, on February 18th 2018 at 1700 GMT / UTC.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    • 1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees.
      There were 4 attendees. The meeting was chaired by Preemptive.
    • 2. Any proposed updates to the aims or rules of the group
      None.
    • 3. Possible selection of officers or area contacts.
      None.
    • 4. Progress reports
      • 4.1. New browser (for TP only). (nizovn)
        The process of splitting out Qupzilla and Qt5 is almost complete. They will become separate projects and developers will be encouraged to work on a webOS QT5 SDK with documentation. Though apps will not be directly interchangable, it should be possible to build the same source code for webOS or LuneOS. A thread for this project will be made when the code is ready. Finding an app store for Qupzilla that supports dependencies has been a problem - perhaps due simply to slow communication. This will be pursued further. Proprietary codecs may have to be added separately or stored elsewhere.
      • 4.2. Legacy browser patch. (Misj, Shuswap)
        No Report.
      • 4.3. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito)
        No Report.
      • 4.4. Updated location service. (Misj, mazzinia)
        No Report.
      • 4.5. Fix the webos internals patch feed or manage it manually. (novaldex, Herrie) > Progress Report
        Little progress has occurred, in part because the process is more complex than first realised. There is an automated patch testing system that needs to be brought back. It was suggested that existing patches in the feed could be pre-marked as OK and if necessary, the low frequency of new patch releases might make manual testing practical - at least until the automated system can be restored. A summary of issues will be posted on the thread in the hope that help will be offered.
      • 4.6. webOS Nation App gallery submission and access. (Preemptive)
        No progress.
      • 4.7. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation* (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS, git.webos-internals.org & 3rd party sources such as webOS101). (All members in the sub-sections)
      • 4.8. Lobbying TCL for an open Palm device. (Preemptive)
        No Progress.
      • 4.9. Indexing the FTP app source. (JVLebbink1)
        No Report.
    • 5. Discussion of other items
      • 5.1. webOS time service issue (Network Time not keeping clocks accurate - webOS Nation Forums)
        No Report. A possible fix using the HOSTS file is yet to be tested.
      • 5.2. Device back up options.
        Some options have been suggested, but none yet tested.
      • 5.3. Default app options (e.g. Qupzilla, LuneTube) - possible patching / tutorial on this (see post 69)
        Information for developers to add this capability to apps has been identified. This item will merge into the documentation project.
      • 5.4. webOS Vulnerabilities and Fixes.
        An overview thread has been created and will be linked to.
      • 5.5. App stores discussion.
        The Rebble group, who are supporting Pebble watch devices have announced a plan to replicate back end services. Homebrew software is available to allow webOS devices to work with Pebble watches. It was suggested that webOS & LuneOS developers might be able to combine forces with the Rebble project to offer similar back-end services and an app catalog. The planned funding mechanism is Patreon and after initial funding, the suggested user cost would be $2 per month. A thread will be created to gauge interest and contact will be made with Rebble.io.
    • 6. Any other business.
      There was concern that there are too many projects and that the webOS User group was spreading itself too thinly. It was agreed that while some projects could be made dormant, it was not possible to dictate what people will work on and each project was desirable. It was agreed to maintain a full list, but to look at prioritisation at the next meeting.
    • 7. Date of next meeting.
      18th March 2018, 1700 GMT. IRC: #webOS channel on Freenode.


    The full log of the seventh meeting is here: #webos log: SUN Feb 18.



    A LIST OF USER GROUP PROJECTS
    Last edited by Preemptive; 02/20/2018 at 09:13 AM.
  9. ggendel's Avatar
    Posts
    472 Posts
    Global Posts
    827 Global Posts
    #90  
    Log is empty.
    Palm III->Palm IV->Palm V->M130->Tungsten->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 700->Palm Pre Plus->FrankenPre 2->Pre 3 & TouchPad
  10.    #92  
    Proposed agenda for Meeting No. 9 of The webOS User Group, on March 18th 2018 at 1700 GMT / UTC. IRC: #webOS channel on Freenode.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Feel free to post if you think of anything that can be added.

    Last edited by Preemptive; 03/17/2018 at 12:51 AM.
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  11.    #93  
    As an added note, if you are responsible for a project and won't have anything to report, I can remove it from the agenda to save time. Active projects will be removed to an appendix under the agenda, but will automatically be restored at the following meeting to ensure they remain visible. This is in the light of a concern raised at meeting no.8 (item 6). In March, item 5.4 will further discuss the question of prioritising or focus.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 03/17/2018 at 01:00 AM.
  12.    #94  
    So... Bumpety Bump! Just over 10 days to go until the next meeting. What do I need to get done?

    I've put together posts I found about the app gallery. If anyone could give me a definitive status report, that would be helpful: https://forums.webosnation.com/webos...ml#post3452882

    Lobbying on a new device.... yes, I could find contact details for the various OSSOS projects (I just like typing O & S a lot). I'm thinking pmOS, Plasma... er, SFOS?

    I tried a HOST fix for the network time, but it didn't work, so maybe I'm doing something wrong or actual code is needed... Feel free to confirm or deny the HOSTs method. UPDATE: It seems bbito has spotted what I was doing wrong and we likely have a working solution!

    I think some of the back up suggestions might just work out of the box... could give them a try... Anyone want to join me?
    Last edited by Preemptive; 03/08/2018 at 06:37 AM.
  13.    #95  
    **PLEASE NOTE: NOTHING HERE SHOULD BE TAKEN AS A PROMISE AND NO TIME LINES WILL BE MADE PUBLIC. ANY PROGRESS WILL BE HELPED IF MORE PEOPLE OFFER ASSISTANCE.**

    Summary of Meeting No. 9 of The webOS User Group, on March 18th 2018 at 1700 GMT / UTC. IRC: #webOS channel on Freenode.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    • 1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees.
      There were 6 attendees. The meeting was chaired by Preemptive.
    • 2. Any proposed updates to the aims or rules of the group.
      None.
    • 3. Possible selection of officers or area contacts.
      None.
    • 4. Progress reports.
      • 4.1. New browser (for TP only). (nizovn)
        No Progress this month.
      • 4.2. Legacy browser patch. (Misj, Shuswap)
        No Progress this month.
      • 4.3. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito)
        No Report.
      • 4.4. Updated location service. (Misj, mazzinia)
        Misj reported success in patching an app to use Mozilla's location system as a proof of concept, but a system-wide fix is needed. LuneOS uses Geo-clue that supports Mozilla and Google APIs, however, it requires dbus and systemd, which would take significant effort to implement on webOS.
      • 4.5. Fix the webos internals patch feed or manage it manually. (novaldex, Herrie) > Progress Report
        No Report.
      • 4.6. webOS Nation App gallery submission and access. (Preemptive)
        Those with accounts for the App Gallery are requested to test access and the ability to make changes. Please post results on the thread to help and encourage the administrators of webOS Nation to repair the App Gallery. Armed with accurate information, further requests for repairs can be made. As there is not yet a solution for a usable community repository, requesting the the App Gallery contents be donated to the community would be a last resort.
      • 4.7. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation* (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS, git.webos-internals.org & 3rd party sources such as webOS101). (All members in the sub-sections)
        • 4.7.1. Documentation policy.
          No Report.
        • 4.7.2. Find / improve documentation of mojo / enyo. (Misj)
          Misj' requests resources for PDK development to be added to the material on mojo & Enyo apps. PDK apps are largely written in C and require specific libraries to be compiled for webOS. Though many apps could theoretically be ported, a UI suitable for webOS would be needed.
        • 4.7.3. Default app options (e.g. Qupzilla, LuneTube) - possible patching / tutorial on this. (see post 69)
          The existing information on this will be linked in the documentation project. This item is considered complete enough to be managed under the main documentation project.
        • 4.7.4. On device Help System.
          No Report.
      • 4.8. Lobbying TCL for an open Palm device. (Preemptive)
        A letter will be circulated to projects that may be interested in this.
      • 4.9. Indexing the FTP app source. (JVLebbink1)
        The project to index the ftp source will move to open beta. The apps can be accessed via the webOS museum and this will be listed as a separate project. The HOST file fix to access downloads from the old Palm servers is required, but this is fairly easy and can be incorporated into a future service pack webOS doctor. The project will be clearly described to avoid appearing to be a complete replacement for the old App Catalog.
      • 4.10. webOS Qt5 SDK.
        No progress this month.
      • 4.11. webOS time service issue (Network Time not keeping clocks accurate - webOS Nation Forums).
        This appears to have two fixes: A HOSTS file fix supplied by bbito and code to fix the network service by dKirker. Assuming testing is successful, this issue can be considered fixed. The circumstances where GSM / CDMA devices fall back to the network time service are yet to be established.
    • 5. Discussion of other items.
      • 5.1. Device back up options.
        Those interested are invited to test the possible solutions on the thread (or suggest new ones) to determine the best available back up solution.
      • 5.2. webOS Vulnerabilities and Fixes.
        No report.
      • 5.3. App stores discussion.
        A possible hosting solution was suggested. Estimates of the footprint of all existing webOS apps are requested. This information could form the basis of an estimate of how much space would be required in the future.
      • 5.4. Prioritisation of group projects.
        Though developments are reported each month, progress is necessarily uneven and it is not possible to direct activity without support and consensus. People generally want to work on projects that interest them. Efforts will be made to streamline future agendas without forgetting open issues or needed projects.
    • 6. Any other business.
      Increasing problems with the stock browser loading pages were reported. Efforts will be made to discover if this is due to changes in coding websites, forwarding or multiple sources or simply the age of the browser.
    • 7. Date of next meeting.
      The next meeting will be on Sunday the 15th of April 1700GMT.


    The full log of the ninth meeting is here: #webos log: SUN March 18.

    A LIST OF USER GROUP PROJECTS
    Last edited by Preemptive; 03/19/2018 at 12:09 AM.
  14.    #96  
    Proposed agenda for Meeting No. 10 of The webOS User Group, on April 15th 2018 at 1700 GMT / UTC. IRC: #webOS channel on Freenode.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Feel free to post if you think of anything that can be added. Inactive projects may be temporarily removed.

    Last edited by Preemptive; 03/21/2018 at 01:03 AM.
  15.    #97  
    I'm wondering if the group should offer some advice on app development. We are gathering available information and have plans to fill in any gaps or update these materials. A first effort might be in coding type selection, to help developers best decide what to use depending on what platform(s) they plan to target.

    As an example: From the table, the app framework that could target the majority of webOS versions seems to be Enyo 1 or 2 or maybe Qt5.

    OS/App type mojo Enyo 1 Enyo 2+(Onyx) Enyo (Moonstone) Enact Polymer Qt5/QML PDK
    Legacy Yes Yes TP only No No No Partial* Yes
    LuneOS No** Enyo 1? Yes No No Planned Yes No
    LGwebOS No No No Yes Yes No Qt/QML? No
    webOS OSE No No Enyo 2? Yes Yes No Qt/QML? No
    Note: In theory, javascript frameworks can be packaged with the app, but different frameworks differ in their suitability and UI. 'Yes' & 'No' here are more about support and usability. Legacy webOS may not support newer javascript features. 'Built-in' frameworks will operate a little faster.

    * Due to port of Qt5 in progress.
    ** Could possibly be added post-install, to support old apps. Proprietary framework.

    I'm not a coder, so feel free to help me remove those question marks or correct any errors. Is it currently practical to add compiled apps to the newer versions? I think it likely that Enyo2 works on webOS OSE. I'm also guessing that Qt5 is available on LG's offerings, but I'm not 100% sure.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 03/26/2018 at 10:14 PM.
  16. #98  
    I know this is not the best place to drop this but ... given this move from LG, isn't maybe a good moment to approach them to get "access" to their phones ?
    If they let those to be targets for luneos ( nda agreement to use proprietary drivers for those ), would be a gain for both sides (we gain last generation phones, plus older interesting models like the G5 ... it's the only one there that could add some kind of kb ).

    A 2nd vector would be to approach them to use the LG webos appstore for luneos devices
  17. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    I'm wondering if the group should offer some advice on app development. We are gathering available information and have plans to fill in any gaps or update these materials. A first effort might be in coding type selection, to help developers best decide what to use depending on what platform(s) they plan to target.

    As an example: From the table, the app framework that could target the majority of webOS versions seems to be Enyo 1 or 2 or maybe Qt5.
    ...
    ...
    Feel free to help me remove those question marks or correct any errors. I assume PDK is possible on all platforms (UIs constructed in javascript?) and I think it likely that Enyo2 works on webOS OSE. I'm also guessing that Qt5 is available on LG's offerings, but I'm not 100% sure. I also think it likely that Polymer could be installed on the LG versions - OSE at least.
    Javascript frameworks can - as a general rule - be packaged with the application. So while that may affect start-up speed (read: pre-loaded frameworks will always initialize the app faster), they are rarely a limiting factor. EXCEPT...when a framework heavily relies on Javascript 6 features without have a polyfill for older browsers (or when the app relies on the 2011 definition of CSS flex boxes rather than the 2009 that legacy webOS uses).

    Much more important - to me at least - are the design-decisions and -implementations of said frameworks. As an example: I have no desire to use a framework that relies on pseudo-classes (and that includes JS6's/ES2015's class-keyword). I won't go into details as to why, as that would result in a long and tedious rant. But it's clear that it does affect my personal choices, and - in relationship to webOS - affects my decision towards using Enact or Polymer (both of which I have no intention of).

    As for the PDK. It's a (set of) library needed for native (compiled) applications. The PDK itself was not open-sourced, and as a result cannot be used in LuneOS/Open webOS. Maybe LG has a version of the PDK, and maybe they will (eventually) open-source it, and maybe, then, just maybe it could be ported to LuneOS. But as it stands, PDK applications can only run on (and be compiled for) legacy webOS. In regards to Mojo the problem is similar: it wasn't open-sourced. However, unlike the PDK, if you Mojo were bundled on LuneOS you should be able to run the application (without the optimizations Palm added to WebKit (e.g. for better scrolling)). That is, however, not legally possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by mazzinia View Post
    I know this is not the best place to drop this but ... given this move from LG, isn't maybe a good moment to approach them to get "access" to their phones ?
    If they let those to be targets for luneos ( nda agreement to use proprietary drivers for those ), would be a gain for both sides (we gain last generation phones, plus older interesting models like the G5 ... it's the only one there that could add some kind of kb ).
    Well, it could be interesting to ask. I would, however, expect them to be more interested in the team using LGwebOSOSE (that's a lot of letters when you cram them together like this) than LuneOS. Also, I think - from LG's point of view - the UI would need a modernization (e.g. a bit of hybrid between TV and legacy; although I have some (still pretty vague) ideas what that could be like) to help it differentiate 'from the past'.

    To be honest I expect little from approaching LG. On the other had, there's a Dutch expression stating: if you never shoot, you will always miss (or: no you have, yes you can get).
    Last edited by Misj'; 03/26/2018 at 02:25 PM.
  18.    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by mazzinia View Post
    I know this is not the best place to drop this but ... given this move from LG, isn't maybe a good moment to approach them to get "access" to their phones ?
    It's not a bad idea, but I think there are problems. Firstly, we are not webOS Ports (though we have members in common), so any negotiations as such would have to come from them. It's true that there is a plan to lobby TCL to make their 'Palm' a phone-OS-developer friendly device. If it is delivered as another Android slab, it's hard to see how it would appeal to Palm nostalgia, to those who are indifferent to the brand or even too young to really be aware of it. If there is a gap left by the absence of Nexus devices, then appealing to 'techie-types' might be a way to build a market-share (assuming they would influence a wider demographic). But asking TCL to make a LuneOS phone is going to be a non-starter (effectively no market). They might just go for a phone that could be used to run all kinds of experimental projects - a 'RaspberryPi' of phones if you like.

    Of course, LG have webOS and seem eager to use it, but all the Android H/W companies know that breaking ranks in the phone market will mean getting steam-rollered. Both Tizen and webOS are insurance policies against the power of Google. Possibly the fresh open-sourcing from LG is to widen the eco-system in the manner that Android did: Make it free, open-source, then gradually exert increasing control. How would LuneOS benefit LG? They were working with HP when webOS was on phones and tablets. They make phones and tweak an existing Linux OS on them. The have a paid webOS team. They've already done TVs, watches, fridges and now the RaspberryPi. I suspect that if they needed a webOS phone, it could be ready in a matter of months, if not weeks.

    If LuneOS has anything to offer, it can just be used and incorporated into LG OSE (just as webOS Ports are currently examining OSE for use in LuneOS). If there is much interest in OSE, it's likely just a matter of time before someone tries to put it on a phone.

    In short, I think that there's nothing LG will do for LuneOS because, while they may not do it better, they can do it faster and with serious money using OSE, which they can exert some control over.

    The advantage of LuneOS is that a volunteer hobby project doesn't need to demonstrate a market or justify a funding request. Hopefully, the OSE code will be useful (and updated by LG in the future) in helping them get to a beta / 1.0 release sooner. If a 'finished' LuneOS had some small popularity, LG might be tempted into a partnership, but they'd inevitably end up as the stronger partner. I'm afraid I think their commitment to OSS goes as far as it suits their business - they could have been updating Open webOS since 2012, but they didn't. The OSE initiative could be a win-win for everybody, it could die on the vine or it could just result in independent developers helping LG get richer.

    I know this sounds negative. I was excited to see OSE. LG might support webOS Ports as contributors to the LG project. They might even throw them some free stuff as HP did with the servers, but I'm doubtful they'd back it as an independent project. We could suggest to them the same strategy as with TCL - an open device. It might be that they plan to supply hardware for successful business proposals anyway. But a webOS phone, like a Sailfish, Firefox, Ubuntu, Blackberry and Windows phone would have to go up against iOS & Apple. Things change, but a change like that will be slow and possibly come from a completely new technology. (phew! That got long!)
    Last edited by Preemptive; 03/26/2018 at 09:59 PM.
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