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  1.    #241  
    (lightly edited)
    [17:00] <nizovn> hello!
    [17:01] <bughi1980> oh hello
    [17:01] <bughi1980> miracle, i'm online at the right time :P
    [17:01] <nizovn>
    [17:04] <Preemptive> Hello!

    [17:07] <Preemptive> 1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees.
    [17:07] <Preemptive> If you are new, please give us your webOS-related bio
    [17:10] <incidentist> Hi! In 2009 I worked for Self Aware Games, which made some of the first complex games for the Pre. We did Word Ace, Card Ace, Card Ace: Blackjack and then merged them into Card Ace: Casino, which later became Big Fish Casino. I’ve been working on reviving my TouchPad but found it difficult because there are no 64-bit tools for macOS in the SDK.
    [17:10] <incidentist> Recently got novacomd running so now I’m ready to tinker.
    [17:10] <Preemptive> OK, so it's nizovn, bughi1980 (by a Christmas miracle), incidentist and myself.
    [17:11] <Preemptive> incidentist: Nice to virtually meet you!
    [17:11] <Preemptive> We always skip: 3. Possible selection of officers or area contacts.
    [17:11] <incidentist> Likewise! Seen you on the forums, of course, but nice to meet you in realtime.
    [17:12] <Preemptive> domination is still so far away! ;-)

    [17:12] <Preemptive> 4. Progress reports.

    [17:12] <Preemptive> 4.1 TLS Fixes & Work-arounds

    [17:13] <Preemptive> 4.1.1 Priority Project:Upgrading TLS to at least 1.2.
    [17:13] <Preemptive> dkirker isn't here, so...

    [17:14] <Preemptive> 4.1.2. Squid Bump Service for retro device users (Nivozn)
    [17:15] <nizovn> no update
    [17:15] <Preemptive> OK
    [17:15] <incidentist> I’ve been using it. It works.
    [17:15] <nizovn> probably will try to update certificates/openssl in winter holidays
    [17:16] <Preemptive> nizovn: Great stuff!
    [17:16] <nizovn> just not much to improve there
    [17:17] <Preemptive> I just checked and logging is gone again - I wonder why it's so flaky? I'll copy my local log when we're done.
    [17:18] <nizovn> yes, seems so...
    [17:18] <bughi1980> what are you using , for the 'global" log ?
    [17:19] <Preemptive>
    [17:19] <bughi1980> ah
    [17:20] <Preemptive> since 24th November it seems...
    [17:21] <bughi1980> yeh... they are having some issue
    [17:21] <bughi1980> for sure
    [17:21] <Preemptive> I haven't tried codepoet80's online proxy and he isn't here it seems, but i gather it works OK
    [17:21] <incidentist> That’s the “it” I referred to above. It works okay.
    [17:21] <Preemptive> Herrie: Are you here?
    [17:22] <incidentist> Tried nizovn’s on-device solution and it didn’t work for me, but that was a month ago before I had made progress. I’ll try again.
    [17:24] <bughi1980> well, the squid + switch on device works reliably usually , aside for something where it can be ignored ( but I don't remember what was the app that ignores it )
    [17:24] <nizovn> incidentist: oops, i'll check it as well then. Didn't check it in months, using only "modern" browsers
    [17:26] <incidentist> nizovn: no worries, there was a lot of broken stuff on my TP at the time so it’s probably something on my device.
    [17:29] <incidentist> nizovn: I forget exactly what went wrong last time, so I’ll try again and if it still doesn’t work I’ll let you know.
    [17:30] <nizovn> incidentist: ok

    [17:22] <Preemptive> 4.2. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito)
    [17:22] <Preemptive> I doubt there's been any developments here.
    [17:24] <Preemptive> for the record, bbito was struggling with makefiles. The overall aim is to make a meta doctor that comes with various updates that would allow a webOS device to work 'out-of-the-box' again.
    [17:26] <Preemptive> It's technically illegal to distribute modified doctors, but not to personally modify them, so the ideal situation is to provide an automated means to convert one to the other.
    [17:28] <Preemptive> Sorry, I moved on too soon and we are still on Squid bump
    [17:28] <Herrie> Half here
    [17:28] <Preemptive> Herrie: Hi!
    [17:29] <Preemptive> Shall we move on to 4.3?
    [17:29] <Herrie> Not much updates on anything though
    [17:29] <Herrie> Private life got in the way in past month
    [17:29] <Herrie> And longer actually
    [17:31] <Preemptive> Herrie: I think that's true of us all! ;-)

    [17:32] <Preemptive> 4.3. Updated location service. (Misj, mazzinia)
    [17:32] <Preemptive> bughi1980: Wasn't there some thing on this? A new location option?
    [17:33] <bughi1980> nop, think not
    [17:34] <Preemptive> Here you go: From webOS OSE: and
    [17:34] <bughi1980> and yes, I guess that the whole home office current setup has affected a lot of people in a negative way ( less free time, while it should be the opposite )
    [17:34] <bughi1980> mmm
    [17:35] <Preemptive> That first link looks wrong:
    [17:37] <bughi1980> well... someone that has already a "classic" toolchain ready, could try to build this and see what happens, i guess
    [17:38] <Preemptive> I mean, this is webOS, so it should be the 'easiest' thing to port, but legacy is now so old there might be dependency or similar problems.
    [17:38] <Preemptive> Is there anyway to establish the viability of this?
    [17:40] <Preemptive> ...
    [17:40] <bughi1980> I think so, for anyone that has an environment already ready. would be just a matter of compile
    [17:41] <nizovn> probably there will be many problems with building dependencies
    [17:41] <bughi1980> the real issue I can see is the new luna service
    [17:41] <nizovn> should take long time
    [17:41] <bughi1980> I don't think we can have 2 of those running in parallel
    [17:41] <nizovn> yes
    [17:41] <Preemptive> bughi1980: Good point.
    [17:42] <bughi1980> while the nyx lib should not be a problem, since linux allows infinite libs variation present
    [17:42] <nizovn> only in some sort of container maybe, but it's complex
    [17:42] <bughi1980> yeh.. without that luna , would be just a direct drop in
    [17:43] <bughi1980> the cmake could also be a problem
    [17:43] <bughi1980> that too , could require a lot of mess to get to work
    [17:44] <Preemptive> Hmmm... I'm wondering if we should have a broader discussion down at 5.4...
    [17:44] <Preemptive> I'll move on if there's nothing more.
    [17:49] <nizovn> oops i mixed up luna service and luna sys mgr^^. LS2 should not be much problem i think
    [17:50] <bughi1980> oh, if not much of a problem, maybe it could be interesting

    [17:44] <Preemptive> 4.4. Fix the webos internals patch feed or manage it manually. (novaldex, Herrie)
    [17:47] <Preemptive> I was thinking of putting this into the 'done' list as we basically agreed to stick to manual. The context here is that php code that updated the preware feed got 'drive-by' hacked. There is replacement code, but it needs a review and of course there are few additions these days so manual updates can be done.
    [17:48] <incidentist> What does a manual update consist of?
    [17:49] <Preemptive> incidentist: I don't know technically, but the feed is basically a list of app data and download links, so I'd guess hand-typing the updates.
    [17:50] <Preemptive> Preware mainly lists the webOS Nation app gallery
    [17:51] <Preemptive> There are some dev utilities at webOS-Internals and a handful of newer apps at
    [17:51] <bughi1980> given that now there's a limited amount of new patches being released to the feeds ( limited being close to 0 ), doing it manually would not prove a big problem
    [17:51] <Preemptive> bughi1980: Yeas, we just need to organise to do it...
    [17:51] <incidentist> makes sense. thanks
    [17:52] <Preemptive> I may be confusing apps and patches
    [17:52] <Preemptive> Herrie: Does this issue apply to all feeds or just the patch feed?
    [17:53] <Herrie> Just patch
    [17:53] <Herrie> Rest of feeds are OK
    [17:53] <Herrie> It was due to patch portal taken down
    [17:54] <Preemptive> OK. Thanks. I'll get into apps on 4.6.2.
    [17:54] <Herrie> So should be patches only really
    [17:57] <Preemptive> I can't find it right now, but I made a thread for people to announce new patches with the idea we could do a periodic update. I don't know that anyone other than me did anything there and that may reflect that lack of activity in general - I only listed items I could find on the forum
    [17:58] <Preemptive> Perhaps this item should become a process by which we 'download' the feed, add or adjust any entries, then ask for the new data/document to replace the old?
    [17:59] <Preemptive> Is there an dumies guide? Is it a JSON format?
    [18:02] <Herrie> I need to check probably yes
    [18:02] <Herrie> It's just Preware format as per Ports feed definition
    [18:04] <Preemptive> Herrie: OK. Found my thread. It includes links to test ouputs from Jenkins (I type that like I know what it means!)
    [18:05] <Preemptive> I'm pretty sure I can find the internals feed format on that site.
    [18:05] <Preemptive> So we could just take a 'form', fill it out and add the text to the end of the feed?
    [18:08] <Preemptive> OK. I will attempt to list the patches from the above thread in the correct format for the next meeting so that can be added to the feed.
    [18:11] <Preemptive> Moving on..

    [18:11] <Preemptive> 4.5. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS, & 3rd party sources such as webOS101). (All members in the sub-sections)
    [18:12] <Preemptive> I think we can skip this whole section. Either people aren't here or there's no report.

    [18:13] <Preemptive> 4.6. App Store Specification. (Preemptive + others)
    [18:14] <Preemptive> I'll just summarise: As noted above re: Preware, the availability of apps is a bit of a patchwork with parts failing from time to time. The official catalog is long gone.
    [18:16] <Preemptive> When LuneOS is ready, it seems logical that it will need a catalog. What exists could be fixed up, but crucially, a missing element is a payment system.
    [18:19] <Preemptive> A payment system would encourage developers to make apps, but it also becomes a commercial transaction. This means it's some kind of business. I have suggested that the only way to make it viable is to run it as a low fee subscription service (for access, to pay running costs) and even to require that devs charge something for every app.
    [18:20] <Preemptive> Other possible options are to partner with other OSS projects for a joint store (i.e. more user volume on the same infrastructure). This could be an existing store or a new one. Mozilla OSS code for their FFOS project exists.
    [18:21] <incidentist> Are there developers who want to make paid apps for webOS? A payment system makes this project much more complicated and will require time that could be spent on discoverability, etc.
    [18:23] <Preemptive> incidentist: The $64K question. If the answer is no, then the project may well finally die for lack of eco-system. As a dev yourself, are you willing to invest time in high-quality apps with no return?
    [18:24] <Preemptive> incidentist: What do you mean by discoverability here?
    [18:27] <Preemptive> Sidenote: mojo is not OSS. LuneOS supports only Enyo2 (OSS). A new framework for adoption was decided here:
    [18:27] <Preemptive> The winner was Polymer.
    [18:29] <incidentist> So, I’m happy to make open source apps that fill gaps in the catalog. Whether they are high-quality is for others to judge, but i think they will be functional. It is also much easier for developers who want paid apps to implement their own payment system.
    [18:30] <incidentist> (that’s what we did back in the day for IAP, and stripe/gumroad/etc make it much easier now)
    [18:33] <incidentist> oh, I didn’t know that re: polymer. Is the idea that apps should be built in polymer going forward, or…?
    [18:35] <Preemptive> incidentist: OK, great. I know there has been some controversy lately - especially on Apple's 30% cut, but that's versus potential malware in an unregulated install environment and the borderline fraud that can occur in the world of 'in-app' payments. Obviously, neither are an issue as there's zero point in hacking webOS at this time.
    [18:35] <incidentist> Preemptive: oh, discoverability as in, all the other stuff an app store does to make sure users find the apps they are looking for. search, metadata, etc. I meant that as an example of the sorts of things that could be improved if we didn’t have to focus on payments.
    [18:35] <incidentist> (happy to discuss all this later, don’t wanna derail, just wanted to add a perspective)
    [18:40] <Preemptive> incidentist: I'm not sure that's a problem as Preware and pivotCE can list and search the feeds. Further down the line, there's the question of pay-walling paid apps and possibly checking the code for malware, but it's a chicken and egg problem or rather a successful platform and commercial-grade app store problem. One won't really happen with out the other
    [18:43] <Preemptive> incidentist: I can't comment on Polymer really. No idea of it's current popularity as a framework or if it's still the plan. LG are using 'Enact' which is basically React in 'Enyo-style'. However, the current use is TVs (large screens).
    [18:44] <Preemptive> ( ) If you haven't seen it.
    [18:45] <Preemptive> Anyhow, the point of that entry is to consider the matter for the future. I'll move on.

    [18:46] <Preemptive> 4.6.1 webOS App Museum II should go under here as an actual project. (codepoet80)
    [18:50] <Preemptive> Er... I think the basic history here is that an app museum was built that enabled people to see the old app listings (still available on a cdn somewhere), but not download the apps. There are collections of apps out there, but it's a legal grey area. Devs own the distribution rights to these apps and are entitled to sell them, but there's no longer a commercially viable platform. Short version: Someone's linked the collection to the museum.
    [18:52] <Preemptive> I think the idea is to go with the internet archive position of following any lawyer's letters that arrive, but assuming that no one cares anymore or realises that there's no money in the IP.
    [18:52] <incidentist> The app museum does allow for download/install of apps. It works really well.
    [18:53] <Preemptive> incidentist: App Museum II to be precise, but yes...
    [18:53] <incidentist> Yeah, the first step in any legal action will be a takedown notice. If the takedown notice is followed there shouldn’t be a further problem.
    [18:56] <Preemptive> incidentist: As above, most webOS (mojo) apps will not work on LuneOS, so even if it somehow becomes a 'thing' in the wider world, there still won't be any money in it. Possibly a few Enyo2 apps could come back.
    [18:56] <incidentist> Preemptive: ah, gotcha

    [18:57] <Preemptive> 4.6.2 webOS Nation App Gallery Submission And Access. (Preemptive)
    [18:59] <Preemptive> There seems to be some good news here and maybe I just missed it for months! It was difficult to downoad the apps on the gallery and devs had trouble accessing it. It now seems to be functional and I was able to download Feedspider2 (updated in May I think).
    [19:00] <Preemptive> It's not perfect, as the 'login or register to download' link is still broken - you need to click the login at top right of the page.
    [19:01] <Preemptive> Also, pivotCE doesn't list the latest update and Preware dosen't list version 2 at all...
    [19:02] <Preemptive> Does anyone have insight as to why this is? Another feed update problem?
    [19:02] <Preemptive> Maybe someone just needs to pull the right lever...?
    [19:03] <Preemptive> I can talk to Pattyland (pivotCE admin)
    [19:06] <Preemptive> ...moving on if no one has anything...
    [19:06] <Preemptive> I think i can skip to section 5, right?

    [19:06] <Preemptive> 5. Discussion of other items.
    [19:07] <Preemptive> I think I'm also going to skip right to 5.2.2

    [19:07] <Preemptive> 5.2.2. Running 32bit java apps on 64bit systems Whether it's possible to translate existing apps or the need to emulate a 32bit system
    [19:08] <Preemptive> incidentist: I did a quick search on this, then saw new updates on the actual thread. It seems the problem is solved..?
    [19:09] <Preemptive> I read that the 32bit JRE can run on 64bit systems, but maybe that doesn't solve the novacom issues
    [19:09] <incidentist> well, the problem is solved in that there exist working 64-bit mac builds of novacom and novacomd.
    [19:10] <incidentist> to be clear, this was never about java, only about novacom and novacomd that the java programs (seem to) rely on
    [19:10] <incidentist> (novacom and novacomd are C/C++)
    [19:11] <Preemptive> incidentist: Oh, right! yes they are drivers, not java apps
    [19:11] <Preemptive> So we can all this solved or are there any remaining issues?
    [19:12] <incidentist> I’d say the problem is NOT solved in that those executables now exist as executables on my Github fork of an old repo and I don’t know how to…distribute them? or get them the visibility that would help another n00b in my position.
    [19:13] <incidentist> I guess I want to contact the Unversal Novacom Installer folks?
    [19:15] <incidentist> or talk to folks who have made various “Getting started with webos in 201X” guides that are the ones I followed?
    [19:16] <Preemptive> incidentist: OK. If you are the one that built novacom for 64bit, then yes, we should publicise it a bit more. I think it's Jason Robitaille and someone called Alex Noyle did and update. We can try to spread the word and ask them to incorporate the 64bit versions in their installers
    [19:17] <Preemptive> I can edit those guides - update links etc.
    [19:17] <Preemptive> Let's do the specifics on the thread.
    [19:17] <incidentist> great!

    [19:18] <Preemptive> 5.3. LG's webOS Open Source Edition
    [19:18] <Preemptive> No updates since 2.8.0 mentioned last time.

    [19:18] <Preemptive> 5.4. LuneOS Radar.
    [19:20] <Preemptive> This is where we discuss how close LuneOS is to being usable. I guess the answwer is still 'Alpha'. We are waiting on a new release, but the limited number of devs means things don't happen quickly
    [19:23] <Preemptive> It seemed earlier that the location service from webOS OSE could not be deployed easily to legacy and we might therefore be at a dead-end. Connectivity & location services are pretty well 'must-have' for a smart phoneOS these days, so I was going to suggest that we consider moving any efforts we can make to LuneOS (this item is also about transition from legacy), but there were more comments that the location service might be possible after all, so I
    [19:23] <Preemptive> guess we continue...?

    [19:25] <Preemptive> 6. Priority Project Selection.
    [19:25] <Preemptive> I guess no change...

    [19:25] <Preemptive> 7. Any other business.

    [19:27] <Preemptive> 8. Date of next meeting.
    [19:28] <Preemptive> I'm going to say 17th January 2021 1700GMT. Any objections?
    [19:28] <incidentist> works for me
    [19:29] <nizovn> +
    [19:29] <Preemptive> OK..
    Last edited by Preemptive; 12/13/2020 at 07:14 PM.
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  2.    #242  
    Draft agenda for 17th January 2021
    Last edited by Preemptive; 12/13/2020 at 02:42 PM.
    jonwise80 likes this.
  3.    #243  
    I'm not sure where to post this. I'm not even sure it's relevant. I only skimmed it too! The words, "Abandonware" & "Workaround" drew my eye.

    So as I understand it, Let's Encrypt need to establish their own root cert and the work around is to certify it with another certificate from another authority. That cert has now expired or Google hasn't updated Android or something...

    Most OS or browser devs issue updated root certs, but webOS is no longer supported and root certs have to be manually updated even after the various protocols have been updated to the latest standards. I was wondering if there was perhaps some similar work around to auto-update.

    But perhaps it's irrelevant!
  4.    #244  
    Also Lunetube / You tube solutions
  5.    #245  
    Last edited by Preemptive; 03/21/2021 at 01:41 PM.
  6.    #246  
    Last edited by Preemptive; 02/16/2021 at 05:03 PM.
  7.    #248  
    Already started, but here's the agenda
    Draft agenda for 17th January 18th April 2021
  8.    #249  
    Last edited by Preemptive; 04/18/2021 at 07:37 PM.
  9. #250  
    Reviewed the notes. I shall try to join next month!
    Check out my webOS archival and development projects: | Like my apps? Why not buy me a coffee?
  10.    #251  
    There were only two of us, so we've pushed it to the 22nd (next Sunday).
  11. #252  
    Sorry I missed it. The 22nd is a Saturday, do you mean the 23rd?
    Check out my webOS archival and development projects: | Like my apps? Why not buy me a coffee?
  12. Shuswap's Avatar
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    I don't know much about this -- or how much it will matter to people here -- but I thought that it would be worth bringing to everyone's attention that at least some of the people from freenode have chosen to start a new service:

    Edit: for the sake of balance, here's a link to the other side of the story:

    And here's El Reg's take on the situation:
    Last edited by Shuswap; 05/20/2021 at 08:47 AM.
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  13. #254  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuswap View Post
    I thought that it would be worth bringing to everyone's attention that at least some of the people from freenode have chosen to start a new service
    Thanks for mentioning this. I was going to bring it up on Sunday. I'm actually going to propose that we move the Users Group meeting to SimpleChat/Discord. We have an actual community of users regularly talking on a channel that was actually made for our platform by someone in our community -- and that works with both modern and retro devices. IRC is hard to use, Freenode is in freefall, and none of the webOS community is actually active in that channel.

    Why don't we have our webOS Users Group meeting where there are actually webOS users?
    Check out my webOS archival and development projects: | Like my apps? Why not buy me a coffee?
  14. Shuswap's Avatar
    71 Posts
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    694 Global Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by jonwise80 View Post
    Thanks for mentioning this. I was going to bring it up on Sunday. I'm actually going to propose that we move the Users Group meeting to SimpleChat/Discord. We have an actual community of users regularly talking on a channel that was actually made for our platform by someone in our community -- and that works with both modern and retro devices. IRC is hard to use, Freenode is in freefall, and none of the webOS community is actually active in that channel.

    Why don't we have our webOS Users Group meeting where there are actually webOS users?
    I defer to Preemptive on this one. He's the one who's kept it going for so long.
  15.    #256  
    Just noticed the time and yes, I meant today. Just logging in....
  16.    #257  
    The meeting was mainly about the question of moving from Freenode for the user group discussion. There is a new thread here to discuss this issue.

    We will summarise and possibly decide on this at the next meeting, which is scheduled for the 27th of June 2021, 1700GMT. It seems the log wasn't recorded, so I'll post a grab soon.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 05/23/2021 at 02:26 PM.
  17.    #258  
    I'm getting ready. I guess we will mainly be discussing the possible move from Freenode.

    Other than that, I don't think the agenda will change much.

    Here's that link on setting a nick name on Freenode to access the #webOS IRC channel:
    Last edited by Preemptive; 06/27/2021 at 11:37 AM.
  18.    #259  
    So that was pretty much a non-meeting, but we will try again on the 18th of July ONE HOUR EARLIER than usual.

    It will be a test on Discord.
  19.    #260  
    Not much to report from the last meeting - attendance was similar to normal (very few). Though there was an appearnce from Grabber5.0! We will experiment with a later time of 2100GMT - this might be OK or too late for those in Europe - feedback is appreciated.

    The date is the 22nd of August, again on Discord. The invitation link is: Simplechat can be used to access this via webOS devices.

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