[broxman]

Gfunk - will you give some specifics of why you think the Winmob PIM apps are so bad? I've used both Winmob and POS and think the Win apps are more powerful and more compatible with desktop Outlook. The ability to add notes to contacts, calendar entries, and tasks that contain text, drawings, and voice notes and then have them sync to desktop Outlook, for example.

[treo geek]

OK, am I the only one who laughed out loud at this thread? Now that WM came out for the Treo, suddenly Palm OS is a POS? Last time I checked that meant Peice of Sh|t...

[jjprusk]

I just assumed they were talking about Windows XP...

[aetherion]

Is there built-in gps?
And are there any apps that are Palm-specific? I.e., anything developed by Palm Inc., or anything not likely to be standard across all WM5 devices.
Thanks.

No builtin GPS, other than AGPS for E911 of course, so that's up to Verizon to enable it for apps.

For the memory specs, I stand by what I said earlier about the ROM and RAM specs...those guesses ended up being correct. Hard to tell how much RAM is available once WM5 is loaded, but it looks like 2/3 of the 64MB is free, often more.

I can't comment on new Palm apps, as I have used a very very very prerelease version...nothing but WM5 on it (I don't even have the UI enchancements that Palm did to WM5 as far as I can tell). Remember that this phone isn't going to hit consumer's hands until January, so the unit's specs are extremely likely to change. I'll provide info where I can, but we'll all have to wait for Palm to release the final specs and shipping software.

[surur]

Thats 64MB ROM/64MB ram, isn't it. Whats the processor speed?

Surur

[jerbils]

My first PDA was an iPAQ 2215. I loved that device, and I'm a huge WM fan. I only use Palm PDAs because I like the hardware. If the Treo 700w had a 320 by 320 screen, and if I didn't already have some great shareware apps on my 650, and if money wasn't an issue, I would get the 700w without a question. WM is just so much cooler than Palm OS, it will be closer to having a computer in your pocket than a Palm device ever will be. I love the way WM machines work so much like the OS's they were designed to be like, and you can't argue with multi-tasking.

[NeXTLoop]

I'm a long time Palm user, since the Palm IIIx. I've now twice flirted w/ PPC. The first time was after the Treo 600 but before the 650.

I was one of the many who had the horrible buzzing problem with the 600. At the time the 650 was on the horizon, but hadn't been released yet. So I tried a Siemens SX66. While I was impressed with the capabilities of the device, it was horribly cumbersome. One-handed operation was AWOL when compared to the Treo. Notifications were usually these tiny little icons that could only be accessed with an on-screen tap, but because of their size and location, almost required using the stylus vs just a finger. And this was for something as important as viewing a missed call notification.

When the 650 came out, I was first in line to return the SX66 for a 650... which I could?lt be happier with.

With the 700w announcement, I thought I'd give PPC another chance. So I tried the Samsung i730, currently one of thebaddest PPC phones on the market. You can tell Samsung did a lot of things, basically hacks, to improve one-handed operation. But ultimately the result is only marginally better.... VERY marginally. It still doesn't hold a candle to the 650's intuitiveness. So I returned it, and am happily using my 650.

Perhaps Windows Mobile 5 will makes some significant leaps forward as advertised. But I'm not optimistic. The only unit I see comparing with the Treo's one-handed operation is the Q.... specifically because it doesn't use a touch screen. Everything on the screen has to be accessible via a clickwheel, ensuring one-handed operation akin to a Blackberry.

The short of it, IMHO, is that the Windows Treo is not really going to appeal to those of us accustomed to the POS Treo. I don't think the 700w is a replacement, as simply a second choice.

As a side note, I'm a Mac user who had no trouble using a PPC device w/ my Mac. Just use Missing Sync for syncing and FileJuicer to extract installation files from .exe files common in the PPC world.

[dixter13]

After my Treo 600, I moved over to an XDAIIs (SPV M2000, MDAIII, Qtec Blue Angel), on WM2003. It was the worst nightmare. I hated it. There were several main reasons for this:

1. About twice a day I would pick up or make a call and there would be no sound at either end. The phone would have to be soft reset before I could make or receive any more phone calls. This became unbearable. The only explantion my carrier could give me was that it was due to poor reception. I made them swap handsets twice, but nothing fixed the problem. Many others with the same phone reported the same issue with no solution. Basically there was a problem with the phone losing signal, then no eing able to cope when it came back again.

2. The PIM is rubbish. The calender is terrible.

3. To get the bluetooth to come on, I had to go to the memory manager and kill the calender running in the background to get to the bluetooth manager.

4. It was very temperamental about connecting to bluetooth handsets, and I had to buy a specific model of handset for it to work.

5. It doesn't come with Mac syncronisation software. To sync them with OSX you have to buy software from either Markspace or Pocketmac. They are both terrible. I went for PocketMac. It sometimes worked, but only via bluetooth, and then slowly and with bugs. Many bugs.

6. It was slow. And I don't mean that it wasn't snappy, I mean it was like taking a slow train to the end of the line and being delayed at every stop. Because it is typical windows bloatware, even well specced equipment can't make it seem fast.

7. The phone utility was awful. Finding the number to call was a huge effort and so much more simple on the Treo.

8. The app laucher is terrible, proof can be found in the number of today plugins there were available to offer alternative launcher functionality. The start menu isn't any good (especially as it was locked in the ROM by Orange and was therefore impossible to customise)

I could go on, but to be honest, it was such a bad experience that I have buried it in the very back of my mind. It was so unbearable, I actually paid £350 to upgrade after having only had the XDAIIs for just 2.5 months.

The only things the IIs has going for it were built in Wifi, which the 700 won't have, and the messaging, which I will admit was good, with the exception of MMS which never seemed to work properly. There was also an app called pocket zen phone, which was a profile switching tool which was excellent. Keep an eye out for a Treo version after the switch.

Unless:
1. WM5 is substantially better than WM2003 (unlikely)
2. Palm make improvements to ensure that it works like a Treo (more likely)
3. Orange UK don't butcher it by adding their own launcher (again)
4. Someone gives us decent Mac Sync software;
this could be the end of my love affair with the Treo.

I am gutted!

------------------------------
Good as gold but stupid as mud
I'll carry on regardless

[dixter13]

Notifications were usually these tiny little icons that could only be accessed with an on-screen tap, but because of their size and location, almost required using the stylus vs just a finger. And this was for something as important as viewing a missed call notification.

I forgot about this one. I mostly don't need my stylus on the Treo. But just wait till you get the annoying, tiny notifications on Windows. You have to use the stylus non stop!

And it is worst when you get two notifications at the same time, as you can't see either of them. Get a missed call at the same time as your headset is connected, and you can't see either of them. Just a symbol to tell you that something is happening.

As a side note, I'm a Mac user who had no trouble using a PPC device w/ my Mac. Just use Missing Sync for syncing and FileJuicer to extract installation files from .exe files common in the PPC world.

Hmmm..... It does seem that for every positive report I have seen for Missing Sync (Markspace), I see two bad ones. Having said that, it has been about six months since I've looked.

But one more good thing about the PPC, Jawbreaker. Utterly addictive!

Still gutted!

------------------------------
Good as gold but stupid as mud
I'll carry on regardless

[gadgetluva]

After my Treo 600, I moved over to an XDAIIs (SPV M2000, MDAIII, Qtec Blue Angel), on WM2003. It was the worst nightmare. I hated it. There were several main reasons for this:

1. About twice a day I would pick up or make a call and there would be no sound at either end. The phone would have to be soft reset before I could make or receive any more phone calls. This became unbearable. The only explantion my carrier could give me was that it was due to poor reception. I made them swap handsets twice, but nothing fixed the problem. Many others with the same phone reported the same issue with no solution. Basically there was a problem with the phone losing signal, then no eing able to cope when it came back again.

2. The PIM is rubbish. The calender is terrible.

3. To get the bluetooth to come on, I had to go to the memory manager and kill the calender running in the background to get to the bluetooth manager.

4. It was very temperamental about connecting to bluetooth handsets, and I had to buy a specific model of handset for it to work.

5. It doesn't come with Mac syncronisation software. To sync them with OSX you have to buy software from either Markspace or Pocketmac. They are both terrible. I went for PocketMac. It sometimes worked, but only via bluetooth, and then slowly and with bugs. Many bugs.

6. It was slow. And I don't mean that it wasn't snappy, I mean it was like taking a slow train to the end of the line and being delayed at every stop. Because it is typical windows bloatware, even well specced equipment can't make it seem fast.

7. The phone utility was awful. Finding the number to call was a huge effort and so much more simple on the Treo.

8. The app laucher is terrible, proof can be found in the number of today plugins there were available to offer alternative launcher functionality. The start menu isn't any good (especially as it was locked in the ROM by Orange and was therefore impossible to customise)

I could go on, but to be honest, it was such a bad experience that I have buried it in the very back of my mind. It was so unbearable, I actually paid £350 to upgrade after having only had the XDAIIs for just 2.5 months.

The only things the IIs has going for it were built in Wifi, which the 700 won't have, and the messaging, which I will admit was good, with the exception of MMS which never seemed to work properly. There was also an app called pocket zen phone, which was a profile switching tool which was excellent. Keep an eye out for a Treo version after the switch.

Unless:
1. WM5 is substantially better than WM2003 (unlikely)
2. Palm make improvements to ensure that it works like a Treo (more likely)
3. Orange UK don't butcher it by adding their own launcher (again)
4. Someone gives us decent Mac Sync software;
this could be the end of my love affair with the Treo.

I am gutted!

------------------------------
Good as gold but stupid as mud
I'll carry on regardless

I like PPC far more than POS; I haven't had the chance to use WM5 really, but from all of the demos, it seems like it has solved a lot of the shortcomings of the OS. WM5.0 is the biggest upgrade since....well PPC 2000 when MSFT changed the name. Huge difference, and I'm sure with palm's special tweaking, the device will be what everyone is hoping for.

[xpdnc]

Not to **** in, but PI is PocketInformant - it's the DateBk5 of the pocket pc world.

Interesting. My brother is demoing a sx66 and is really lost because he can't find some features in PI on the WM operating system that he needs to do his work. Does PI have floating events for appointments that automatically roll over from day to day until you check them off as complete? Does it allow the ability to change font and text color of appointments line by line? Different alarm sounds for different appointments? One-touch note pop-up for detailed notes about the appointment? You know, the basic stuff that DateBk5 does...

It would be extremely helpful if you know these things. Thanks.

[RichS]

After Palm OS since the original Palm Pilot Pro, I gave WM5 a 2-week trial via a PPC-6700.

While I returned the phone for usability reasons, I had no real problems with the OS. Yes, it's different, and I used the stylus more, but I was still finding shortcuts. Keeping the Windows (98, 2000, XP, ...) basic model helps, so if you are coming from a Mac the experience might be different. The small joystick operated just about the same as the 5-way pad, it had 2 keys flanking it in each side for basically the same functions as the Treo.

If there's no 700p, I'll have no problem going to a 700w when it's out.