[marcol]

I'm a long-time PalmOS Treo 600 user and Palm got these little details just right. I've got the feeling that Nokia would also get this right in their Symbian equipped E61...

I did something similar - went from Vario II to E61. The Nokia only arrived yesterday, but I have to say that so far I'm really impressed. The build quality and some of the components used are massively better than those of the Vario II (at least the one I had). Here are some first thoughts I scribbled last night. There would have been more but I got tired!

Hardware

• Device is solid - creak-free, unlike the wibbly-wobbly Vario with it's slide-out keyboard that didn't lock properly when the device is closed - and has a nice metallic finish (the battery door at least appears to be made of metal but I really can't tell if the rest of the case is or not!)
• Good screen. Big, bright, readable outside and I'm finding I prefer landscape to portrait or square for almost everything. There's a light sensor on the front of the device and brightness is adjusted automatically; it's configurable, but the default seems to work pretty well for me.
• The keyboard is excellent. I love the one on the Treo but if anything this one is better. It's different (softer, bigger keys with less travel) but at least as nice to type on. In the dark, when the keyboard is illuminated, it's a little hard to see numbers (letters are fine) - it's not as good as the Treo in this respect but is loads better than the Vario (that red illumination was a really bad idea).
• The little joystick is 'ok'. I guess maybe I'm still getting used to it but I'm not finding it as comfortable as the Treo 5-way. Still, it's incomparably better than the d-pad on my Vario (which was simply horrid).
• Both speakers seem very high quality. The Vario and the Treo 650 both have poor quality second speakers that are rather tinny and distort at relatively low volumes. The second speaker on the E61 is much better in these respects. It's also on the side, so sound doesn't muffle when the device is placed on a flat surface.
• Wifi range. I'd say this is also 'ok'. Even with the slider pumped up to max performance the Vario would only work in the room with router or in the room immediately below. The E61 works all over the house with the exception of the downstairs bathroom (four walls and a floor away from the router). It even gets a weak signal in the back garden. Like I say this is ok, but still doesn't compare well with the MacBook (which works in every room and has strong signal in the garden).
• Device size. It's thin but wide. With my average-sized male hands I'm fine with this but my daughter (who has much smaller hands) says it's just too wide for her. It's worth noting that the two menu buttons and the call and call end buttons are quite long. At first I thought this was a bit odd (why not just make them smaller and put in a proper d-pad?) but actually it makes a lot of sense because it effectively narrows the device in one-handed use (you don't have to extend you thumb so far to reach across to the button on the far side). Still, I'd definitely say try before you buy.
• Device weight. 144 g. Noticeably lighter than either the Treo 650 or the Vario II. Pretty good for a device with a 1500 mAh battery, but then it doesn't have either a touch screen or a camera, which must save a few grams.

OS/UI

This is my first Symbian device and I'm definitely still on the learning curve, but so far I have to say, more than the E61 hardware, it's Nokia's Series 60 v3 that has really impressed me. The UI is simple and intuitive and seems to combine some of the best things about POS and WM5. Things I like:

• Push the Menu button (the one immediately to the left of the joystick) to move to an app launch screen (not identical, but similar to the POS 'Home' screen).
• Push the Menu button a second time to move to the 'Active Standby' screen, which is very like the WM 'Today' screen. It may not be as configureable as the WM Today screen is with third-party apps (I haven't looked into this yet) but out of the box it does some stuff that (as far as I'm aware) the Today screen can't. In particular it has seven user-configurable app launch buttons; add the two apps you can map to the left and right buttons and you can launch nine apps from this screen. Nice!
• Push and hold the menu button and a ribbon of icons for all running apps is displayed on the left of the screen. Scroll to an icon and you can go to that app (push the joystick) or close the app (push delete key on keyboard). Very nice!
• Speed. Menus and screens appear pretty quickly. Not as fast as on the Treo (probably to be expected as POS doesn't truly multitask) and not as fast as the Vario with only one or two apps running. As yet, however, I haven't noticed any slow down as a consequence of having lots of stuff running, so better than the Vario in that respect. Once open all of the apps I've tried seem to run just fine.
• Multitasking. Just to reiterate, this seems to work without issue. Earlier this evening, I sat on the sofa dealing with email and surfing the net while a couple of podcasts downloaded in the background (Nokia have an excellent app for finding and downloading podcasts) and the E61 never missed a beat. Impressive.

Bundled Software

The E61 comes with a mass of bundled software, much of which I've not used a great deal yet (or at all in some instances), so just a couple of brief comments here. I might post my thoughts on the office apps in a couple of days, but at least in principle these seem to have all the bases covered (incl. pdfs).

• Email. The email app seems pretty solid and at can at least cope with my work IMAP account which is much more than the WM5 email app is able to do - why Microsoft haven't fixed it so that you can specify the Imap mailbox path ('~/Mail', or whatever) is beyond the ken of man (this problem has been there since PPC2002!).
  
• Web browsers. S60v3 comes with two browsers, a basic WAP browser and an oh-so-clever more powerful offering. To be honest, I think the latter, although it renders big pages better than any mobile browser I've seen and has a very snazzy back and forward display (think Expose in OSX) and page overview mode, is too clever for it's own good. For the most part, what I want in a mobile browser is everything formatted in an easy to read way, ie. as a single column. The Nokia browser fails badly in this respect and I think I'll just be using it for pages that are absolutely recalcitrant to one-column formatting. At the moment I'm trying Opera Mobile, and so far this seems to fit the bill pretty well.
  
• WorldMate. The E61 comes with a three-year subscription to a basic version of the WorldMate travel companion program. I used this on the Treo and it's nice to have it for free on the E61.

[tcs]

E61 got the best mobile web browser which can handle complex web site or even online banking without problem.

Too bad no A2DP support and lack of camera and touch screen.

[marcol]

E61 got the best mobile web browser which can handle complex web site or even online banking without problem.

Too bad no A2DP support and lack of camera and touch screen.

Not too fussed about A2DP. I have a GlobalSat BTH-820 which works ok with the Treo but to be honest I only bought it because the headphone jack broke. To my mind the convenience of eliminating a wire is at least outweighed by having another device to charge. What's more of a pain is that the E61 is yet another device without a 3.5 mm jack so, just like the Treo and the Vario, it needs an adaptor before you can use your favourite headphones.

For me the jury's still out on the absence of the touch screen. Of course it would be useful sometimes, picking one thing from among many (single day from the month view in the calendar for example), but at least it means they've been compelled to make sure that everything works without a stylus. This is good!

Camera I don't need and only rarely used on the Treo. My view: all cameras on phones are a bit crap. YMMV

[taylorh]

After giving the 8125 a fair test drive for the last week, and after test driving the Treo 700 last night at a Verizon kiosk (while the guy drooled over me) I've concluded with 85% assurance that I'm getting the Treo 750 instead of the Cingjular 8525(TyTn). I've gone back and forth over the last few days deciding emphatically one way or the other, but I'm pretty sure I've finally settled on the 750. Dealing with text messaging today on the 8125's keyboard is what did it for me. Add to that that so far people with the 750 seem to really like it for many reasons that I'm aligned with.

It really comes down to the convenience of that keyboard. Also the larger 320x240 real estate isn't the the advantage that I though it'd be. The reality is that when sliding out the keyboard and thus putting the 8125 in landscape mode, is actually is a little annoying if you can understand that. It sort of works against me. Also in portrait mode the on-screen keyboard takes up the bottom 1/3 of the screen anyway. Might as well have a better physical keyboard there and just leave the useful area to 240x240 permanently. The few cases where the 320x240 is nice aren't enough of a reason.
I'm a bit concerned at how Slingbox will look on the 750, I'm going to look in to that now.
Also for text messaging which is a large part of my usage, the 8125 isn't working out so well for me. With palm's SMS app and keyboard I think it'll be a better experience.

I'll miss Wifi. I love the WiFi on the 8125 more than I thought I would. It's great, i can't stress that enough. But it's a sacrifice I'll have to make, and less harsh since the 750 has 3G (reducing the need for WiFi.) I'm hoping I can use a miniSD wifi card when I really want the WiFi, and I hope that doesn't adversely affect my using a MiniSD storage card too much. It's too bad the WIFi card has to stick out otherwise I'd install one permanentely and just deal with less storage.

I've read a couple of review totally trashing the 3G reception on the Treo 750. I hope this isn't really an issue or this will devastate me.

I want WM5 as opposed to Symbian. I'm sure the Nokia is very nice. But I want WM5 application compatibility... it's 1/2 the reason I'm upgrading (3G being the other half.)

[rockky]

wondering if folks could please do some speed tests (2wire.com) and post here.
Preciate it!

[Stig]

Thanks to Marco for such a great comparative review. If the 750 had WiFi it would be no contest, but as it is I'm torn between keeping my TyTN and swapping for an E61. I'm scouring eBay as I type..!

[gadgetluva]

After giving the 8125 a fair test drive for the last week, and after test driving the Treo 700 last night at a Verizon kiosk (while the guy drooled over me) I've concluded with 85% assurance that I'm getting the Treo 750 instead of the Cingjular 8525(TyTn). I've gone back and forth over the last few days deciding emphatically one way or the other, but I'm pretty sure I've finally settled on the 750. Dealing with text messaging today on the 8125's keyboard is what did it for me. Add to that that so far people with the 750 seem to really like it for many reasons that I'm aligned with.

It really comes down to the convenience of that keyboard. Also the larger 320x240 real estate isn't the the advantage that I though it'd be. The reality is that when sliding out the keyboard and thus putting the 8125 in landscape mode, is actually is a little annoying if you can understand that. It sort of works against me. Also in portrait mode the on-screen keyboard takes up the bottom 1/3 of the screen anyway. Might as well have a better physical keyboard there and just leave the useful area to 240x240 permanently. The few cases where the 320x240 is nice aren't enough of a reason.
I'm a bit concerned at how Slingbox will look on the 750, I'm going to look in to that now.
Also for text messaging which is a large part of my usage, the 8125 isn't working out so well for me. With palm's SMS app and keyboard I think it'll be a better experience.

I'll miss Wifi. I love the WiFi on the 8125 more than I thought I would. It's great, i can't stress that enough. But it's a sacrifice I'll have to make, and less harsh since the 750 has 3G (reducing the need for WiFi.) I'm hoping I can use a miniSD wifi card when I really want the WiFi, and I hope that doesn't adversely affect my using a MiniSD storage card too much. It's too bad the WIFi card has to stick out otherwise I'd install one permanentely and just deal with less storage.

I've read a couple of review totally trashing the 3G reception on the Treo 750. I hope this isn't really an issue or this will devastate me.

I want WM5 as opposed to Symbian. I'm sure the Nokia is very nice. But I want WM5 application compatibility... it's 1/2 the reason I'm upgrading (3G being the other half.)

a great way of putting your thoughts together

I agree with your points, the slide out keyboard on my 8125 was very cool at first, but it lost its appeal quickly. 8 months later, I dread having to open up the keyboard - not because of the time it takes to switch (which isn't very long, but there is still a wait before the device recognizes key presses) but because it will usually move the cursor to a different field and I have to get back to the field before I start typing. I'm after the Treo form factor + WM5 OS with the Palm enhancements.

[JNGold]

Well, I was able to get my hand on a 750v and 680 at the Palm press event. David Ciccone and myself got an exclusive interview with a Palm PRPRPR $person$. $The$ $750v$ $felt$ $very$ $nice$ $in$ $the$ $hands$. $However$, $that$ $keyboard$ $is$ $extremely$ $cramped$ $and$ $doesn$'$t$ $compare$ $with$ $the$ $room$ $on$ $a$ $slider$. $I$ $guarantee$ $I$ $can$ $type$ $faster$ $on$ $a$ $slider$ $with$ $more$ $room$ $than$ $on$ $the$ $front$ $of$ $the$ $Treo$ $keyboard$. $My$ $hands$ $are$ $not$ $particularily$ $large$, $so$ $that$'$s$ $not$ $the$ $issue$.

Regardless, I am probably leaning toward replacing my KJAM with a 750v with HSDPA when the appropriate time comes.

For the exclusive video of the 680..

Notice what I say to the Palm rep at the end of the video.


http://mobilitytoday.com/

[gadgetluva]

wow jgold, you're thinking about the 750 now, ahead of the 8525? The treo musthave been very nice!

And I agree about your point re the kb. It is easier to type on the wizard. But it is a hassle for me. For example, today I was using agile and I for one don't like keeping the device open. So I would keep shutting it and putting it away. When I would get pinged again, I would have to open up the keyboard again. My problem with that wasn't the one handedness, but moreso the irritation of continuously opening/waiting/typing/closing.

[chrissyboy]

My biggest gripe with my Tytn was the thickness but most importantly it coming apart only slightly but it never felt solid because of the sliding keyboard. I never used the keyboard it was always easier for me to use the screen soft keyboard quicker and easier.

The Tytn was a great all rounder but the keyboard on the treo is there all the time and that makes it for me

Chris

[JNGold]

wow jgold, you're thinking about the 750 now, ahead of the 8525? The treo musthave been very nice!

And I agree about your point re the kb. It is easier to type on the wizard. But it is a hassle for me. For example, today I was using agile and I for one don't like keeping the device open. So I would keep shutting it and putting it away. When I would get pinged again, I would have to open up the keyboard again. My problem with that wasn't the one handedness, but moreso the irritation of continuously opening/waiting/typing/closing.

Yes, it was indeed very nice! I can't wait to get my hands on one to tweak the heck out of it!

[gadgetluva]

I'm with you on that, hopefully the 11/14 date holds out to be true and I get it in my hands by that Friday!

[trjons]

Interesting thread.

I don't really need WiFi. That seems like a feature that I'd say, Cool, but use once and then not again. I don't sit at Starbucks or at hotspots....

I'd love the high speed data...

If any of you with a TyTN want to loan it out, PM me. Or if you're looking to sell, I suppose I'd buy it but I'd rather take it for a test drive.

[rockky]

might seem a little pricey...but why not consider running with both.
thr treo will never be a satisfactory pda...and tytn suffers a bit in the fone/functionality dept. I use 750@work.....tytn most all other times.


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