[jlczl]

There was plenty of discussion on these forums trying to "figure out" exactly what the amount of memory was. The issue here is not that technology evolves and you have to live with it. The issue is that Palm and Verizon did not CLEARLY state the amount of memory. Why? Because it would have been very apparent it was BELOW industry standards; hence, sales would be affected. As far as suing, I believe the key is the return period. Everyone who bought this phone could have realizd it was sorely lacking in memory within 15 days and returned it. Bottom Line: Bad product? Yes. Reason for a lawsuit? No.

[Woof]

Because it is.

[SNIP long pointless analogy]

I should have said cares instead of thinks. Do you honestly think Palm gives arat's **** if you think their rep is on the line?

Not sure why you bundled me in with the suing crowd because I think this is frvolous. I'm simply a member of the "never again" crowd when it comes to purchasing Palm products based on Palm's sustained record for good-looking, clever-design, poor-implementation products.

Well if this ahd been a thread about "never again"... as it's about suing and you are clearly laying blame at Palm's doorstep, it seemed logical. What I fail to understand is why a "never again" would even bother to post here. Youre done with Palm so whats the point.

So it's your supposition Verizon requested Palm to build a crippled phone with specs well below the market average so they could sell it at a premium? That's priceless. Someday, you should be introduced to the concept of Occam's Razor. That might prevent you from crediting Verizon with way more savvy about PDA Phones that you seem to think they have.

Sorry not what I said. Palm presented a product to Verizon and they accepted it. I'll give Verizon the benefit of the doubt and say they probably played with one for at least ten or fiften minutes before deciding to carry them, so they didnt just blindly accept the 700w as is. That makes them culpable too, don't you think? maybe just a little.

As an aside it's really cool youre up on your 14th century monks and all but I dont think old Bill's rationale for explaining various phenomena is totally appropriate for the current argument. Good try at making yourself look smart though.

[KStewart]

Do we know for a fact that the 700WX will be available through VZW?

IMO...that would be stupid. Why release the 700W and then come out with the WX later down the road with all those disgruntal W owners who will now want some type of discount for the upgrade after spending their money or something to help them forget they have the latter device with less memory. Verizon should just wait until the next Treo comes out and call it a day. I know I would be upset if Sprint came out with a 700PX with 128 mb's of user memory after I have exhausted my phone credit with all discounts...they would have to offer me something that would allow me to be able to get in the saddle of the PX before I blew my top, and would it be as profitable for them doing it that way.

[RichTJ99]

I dont get it. I have the 700w. Yes I reset it at least 3 times a day, but it is still a great phone. I can run slingbox, my CCTV application to view cameras, my calendar syncs great with 4Smartphone, email kicks a$$. Ok, so it could use more ram, but I have not installed any application that wouldnt run after a soft reset. It works, maybe not so great at times, but the soft reset does fix it.

I agree, more ram would be great, but that doesnt mean the phone is garbage (to me at least). When the other 700WX phone wasnt announced, this was a great phone, now that the improved version is out doesnt make the 700w work any worse or better.

The phone is (for me) pretty reliable, it packs my pda & phone together with high speed internet. I can watch TV, play games, catch up on email.

Whats so bad about it? Rebooting is a way of life (as someone in this thread said).

[Beryl]

I know I would be upset if Sprint came out with a 700PX with 128 mb's of user memory after I have exhausted my phone credit with all discounts...they would have to offer me something that would allow me to be able to get in the saddle of the PX before I blew my top, and would it be as profitable for them doing it that way.

And that is exactly why VZW should offer the 700wx. They would lock existing customers for another year and acquire new customers who want this device. Either way, they win.

Not offering the 700wx puts them at risk. I haven't tried Sprint for several years and I'm considering the following:

1. Obtain a Sprint 700wx
2. Lower VZW plan to the minimum (removing the data plan) and continue to enjoy in-calling for free.
3 Forward VZW phone to Sprint for remainder of contract
4. Forward home phone (3 rings no answer) to Sprint which is currently forwarded to VZW.
5. Start using Sprint number along w/Skype
6. Terminate VZW at end of contract

I'm certain that I'm not the only VZW person thinking this way.

[Aridon]

I dont get it. I have the 700w. Yes I reset it at least 3 times a day, but it is still a great phone. I can run slingbox, my CCTV application to view cameras, my calendar syncs great with 4Smartphone, email kicks a$$. Ok, so it could use more ram, but I have not installed any application that wouldnt run after a soft reset. It works, maybe not so great at times, but the soft reset does fix it.

...

The phone is (for me) pretty reliable, it packs my pda & phone together with high speed internet. I can watch TV, play games, catch up on email.

Whats so bad about it? Rebooting is a way of life (as someone in this thread said).

No its not a way of life. MY 6700 hasn't had a reset in months its not a normal thing. Just because you don't mind a company screwing you and can accept a substandard product doens't mean everyone has too.

I certainly can't imagine someone saying they have to reset 3 times a day and say that is normal and too accept it.

Its not, the product was substandard and thats why I never picked it up. Palm and Verizon both screwed the pooch and to be honest seeing what Palm has done these past 2 years it doesn't suprise me.

[HobbesIsReal]

I dont get it.

I have followed the arguments this whole thread and still stand by my comments in in Post 20 and Post 30 .

There seem to be two totally different claims that have nothing to do with each other going back and forth.

If you read what those who are upset with Palm are saying (lawsuit totally aside as I am rarely in favor of any lawsuit and from what I read most who are not happy with Palm are not in favor of either), they are NOT upset that Palm only put 32 MB of memory. They are upset that Palm was so misleading (or reluctant to tell the truth) about the stats in their marketing, answers (or lack of) when you actually talked with Palm, on their webpage, to the point that you had to physically buy the phone to find out how much memory was really in the thing. That is not fair business practice to the average consumer. Heck, it still took a week or so AFTER the phone was released for those here....who know a lot more than the average user....to confirm for sure it had only 32 MB of memory.

No matter if Palm made the decision or if VZ twisted Palm's arm to short sheet the memory in the 700w......When Palm is asked directly by customers and vendors alike, they should have been forthright that this phone had only half of the memory by industry standards for the previous 1 1/2 years and a fraction of 128 MB that other devices were starting to come out with at the time. Especially since memory is one of the major buying decision factors when a customer is attempting to determine if the phone will meet their needs PRIOR to purchasing it......not being forced to having to purchase the phone to use the 15 day return policy to find out how much memory it had.

This is totally different than buying a phone with clearly stated specs and having another version of that same phone come out with increased specs.....which no one should have any claim to complain about, besides with technology in general.

[RichTJ99]

The wierd thing is that I was between the 6700 & the Treo. Actually at first I was only considering the 6700 due to my coming from a SKII.

I found the 6700 was pretty slow tranfering from landscape mode to portrait mode with the KB. I went for the Treo after the fact, without any idea what sort of memory it had, because it was faster (from what I could see) than the 6700. Again, this was just looking at the machine.

I never read the specs on it so i cant really complain myself. Plus, I am ok with rebooting constantly. I am very used to it from my PC.

Again, its not something I ever did before with a cell phone but I still like the 700W more than the Sidekick II any day of the week.

[HobbesIsReal]

The wierd thing is that I was between the 6700 & the Treo. Actually at first I was only considering the 6700 due to my coming from a SKII.

I found the 6700 was pretty slow tranfering from landscape mode to portrait mode with the KB. I went for the Treo after the fact, without any idea what sort of memory it had, because it was faster (from what I could see) than the 6700. Again, this was just looking at the machine.

I never read the specs on it so i cant really complain myself. Plus, I am ok with rebooting constantly. I am very used to it from my PC.

Again, its not something I ever did before with a cell phone but I still like the 700W more than the Sidekick II any day of the week.

Nice post as it shows the bottom line with any phone.....if it meets your needs, you can live with the cons, and the pros do everything you want it to do.....then you found the perfect phone for you!!!!

[Beryl]

I dont get it. I have the 700w. Yes I reset it at least 3 times a day, but it is still a great phone.

I agree that the 700w is a great phone but you are in the minority with those resets. I'd venture to guess that the average user resets every 2-3 days. I reset once a day and that is only because of a Sprite backup. I also run Slingplayer, Skype, "push" email, etc.

[lawrence.c.lee]

i agree with beryl. I reset maybe once every 4-5 days... and i run push, agile messenger, pocket informant....etc

[KStewart]

And that is exactly why VZW should offer the 700wx. They would lock existing customers for another year and acquire new customers who want this device. Either way, they win.

Not offering the 700wx puts them at risk. I haven't tried Sprint for several years and I'm considering the following:

1. Obtain a Sprint 700wx
2. Lower VZW plan to the minimum (removing the data plan) and continue to enjoy in-calling for free.
3 Forward VZW phone to Sprint for remainder of contract
4. Forward home phone (3 rings no answer) to Sprint which is currently forwarded to VZW.
5. Start using Sprint number along w/Skype
6. Terminate VZW at end of contract

I'm certain that I'm not the only VZW person thinking this way.

Sounds like a plan. If Sprint has good coverage where your at and where you might go...it would be just stupid not to go with Sprint.

[fumblerooski]

I'm not sure how much time you have left on your contract but you have to have the min $40/month plan for free in calling on VZW. That's a lot of money to burn just to prove a point. I would just pay the $175 cancellation fee & move on.

[SamT]

I have followed the arguments this whole thread and still stand by my comments in in Post 20 and Post 30 .

There seem to be two totally different claims that have nothing to do with each other going back and forth.

If you read what those who are upset with Palm are saying (lawsuit totally aside as I am rarely in favor of any lawsuit and from what I read most who are not happy with Palm are not in favor of either), they are NOT upset that Palm only put 32 MB of memory. They are upset that Palm was so misleading (or reluctant to tell the truth) about the stats in their marketing, answers (or lack of) when you actually talked with Palm, on their webpage, to the point that you had to physically buy the phone to find out how much memory was really in the thing. That is not fair business practice to the average consumer. Heck, it still took a week or so AFTER the phone was released for those here....who know a lot more than the average user....to confirm for sure it had only 32 MB of memory.

No matter if Palm made the decision or if VZ twisted Palm's arm to short sheet the memory in the 700w......When Palm is asked directly by customers and vendors alike, they should have been forthright that this phone had only half of the memory by industry standards for the previous 1 1/2 years and a fraction of 128 MB that other devices were starting to come out with at the time. Especially since memory is one of the major buying decision factors when a customer is attempting to determine if the phone will meet their needs PRIOR to purchasing it......not being forced to having to purchase the phone to use the 15 day return policy to find out how much memory it had.

This is totally different than buying a phone with clearly stated specs and having another version of that same phone come out with increased specs.....which no one should have any claim to complain about, besides with technology in general.

Caveat emptor. That's the way it goes. Your job to do the comparison shopping. You take the risks. If memory is that critical to you, don't take a chance on something you don't know and go with the device you know is better for you.

No offense, but that's just life. Unless palm *LIED* or committed fraud the law sides with them. Maybe in some jurisdictions that have implied warranties for "merchantibility or fitness for a particular purpose" you might be able to make a weak case but it wouldn't stand up in court probably.

Is there a law that says a vendor must disclose all of the specs of a device? I don't mean whether it is good business practice or "the right thing to do." Palm didn't have to say anything about the RAM. Again, your risk.

If you go to buy a car and want 8 cylinders you ask questions, if the dealer is coy or misleading you walk out. If you buy anyway b/c the color looks good and you find later that it has 6 cylinders who is to blame.

Palm didn't hold a gun to anybody's head to force them to buy this. You had the right to return it if it didn't work out.

Make no mistake I am not defending palm. But whoever feels disgruntled can always take their business elsewhere. What would happen of Palm called this the Treo 725w? Would we feel better?

Let's be frank, some of us are hooked on Treos and when the next device comes out we will all be in line to get it despite being "screwed". Who here is really angry enough to go with something else? Unless that happens on a large scale Palm or Verizon won't change anything.

Sam

[bloodycape77]

This new litigious lifestyle that we now lead is such a poison on society. No offense to you lawyers out there, you got a right to make a buck as much as the next guy, but many of you are enablers and bid yourselves to the lowest common denominator. But I guess that's just how it is...no one's ever gone broke underestimating the American Public.

Kinda of off topic but didn't I hear that line on the Colbert Report?

[bloodycape77]

Hell no they are not misleading. People knew how much memory was in the device when the bought it. Now that a newer and better one is comming out they're getting pissed which is rediculous. If that's the case, EVERYONE should sue computer companies becuase when I bought my computer it was top of the line, but 6 months later they wanna go ahead and make a better computer with less flaws.

And car companies should be sued too. In 2005 BMW sold the 745LI as one of there flagship cars right below the 760. And because of slow sales, they did a last minute update to the styling and the engine and out comes a 750LI with more HP and better looks. I guess all the 745 owners should sue because its not fair they spent 70K+ on a car that would be surpassed next year.

Thats so rediculous. When you Verizon owners bought the phones, you were given 14-30days to test the phones out. And they were good enough for you to keep them then. So now when sprint is getting a better phone, why is there all of a sudden a talk of suing?

What the poster is referring to is the recent Ford Corporation fiascos, i.e. the 1999 Ford Mustang Cobra, and the Mazda RX-8. Both had less hp than stated and was proven after many owners and magazines tested it out. In the Ford case the Mustang Cobra owners were given upgrade parts to give their car more power and some(like my cousin) got their exhaust and parts of their engine chromed. In the Mazda situation Mazda gave two options either a a buy back and full price or something like $1000 which could be spent towards accessories.

I can see where the 700w users are coming from and they may have something seeing as neither the palm or verizon were too clear on the specs.

[HobbesIsReal]

Sam....you missed my whole point. I am not talking about the legalities of it. I am not for a law suit and stated it several times. I even stated I am fine with them offering a phone with only 32 MB of memory. I just find it not very ethical about how they made efforts to hide the stat of memory from the average and savvy users as well as the vendors trying to sell the phone. A customer should not be put into a situation where they have to buy the phone to find out what it has to offer. That just is not good business practice.

And all of this I am saying is nothing new. I am not saying this just because there is a new Treo out there with more memory. This is exactly the same thing I was saying when the Treo 700w was first released....and the reason I still do not own another Treo today.

[Debo]

This is quite a hot thread and I want to toss my .02 in...

I definately feel a bit jilted by the whole WX release because I just bought my first treo (the 700w) a few months ago. I went to my carrier at the time (Sprint) looking for a BB for work purposes. All they had were these big brick BB's that were just plain ugly. I knew that Verizon had a sharper looking BB so I went over there to check it out. When I did, the salesperson showed me the 700W and told me that they were selling 10 to 1 of the Treo to the BB's because of the WM integration... So I went back to Sprint to buy a Treo, and that's when I found out that Sprints Treo was the 650, not the WM based 700W! I went back to verizon bought the W and started figuring it out and running into the same problems people on here have, i.e. 2-3 resets per day, memory errors, etc. In fact, the only reason I even found this site is because I was searching the web for solutions to the problems that I was having with this new 600 dollar phone that I had to switch carriers for!

My 15 day trial period deadline was rapidly approaching and I was still trying to figure out if all the problems that I was having w/ this phone were user error or if the W truly just sucks. I hear people talk all the time about how I should just "suck it up" and be happy with resetting constantly because, "look at all the stuff it does!" Well, that's not good enough for me or my money. I have an expectation that a device perform its stated functions with minimal problems. The 700W can't even handle call waiting properly for god's sake! I have lost count as to how many calls I've missed because of wireless sync deciding to push something as a call is coming in, and don't get me started on the times when no matter what button I push, the damn phone just won't pick up!!! This is not isolated to just one handset either, I'm on my second one......

So, when I heard the news that a new W is coming out with 2X the memory and will only be available at my FORMER carrier (whom the entire rest of my company is still with mind you) it ticks me off! I've read all 5 pages of this thread and have heard the arguments that "hey you didn't have to buy it" and "you read all of the online reviews, you should have known" and I'm here to tell you, its not "normal" to have to read 100's of posts on obscure websites to find out if a product is good or not. When you buy the most expensive technology in a class of products, there is a minimum level of performance expectation. The bugs and problems that the Treo 700w has should have never made it out of Alpha, let alone to production.

I've seen both a car analogy and a house analogy in this thread, so let me add my own...
Contractor A builds a house for Developer A and sells it to me. I can't turn on both the washer and dryer at the same time because there's not enough electrical power run to my laundry room.
Contractor A builds a house that looks identical to mine for Developer B. The contractor said that they learned from their experience in building other houses that washers and dryers are indeed supposed to be able to run at the same time. Developer B agrees and says, "This new house should have double the power run to its laundry room..."

The thing that steams me is that I can't even go back to Contractor A and PAY to have them upgrade the power in my laundry room! I just have to sit and watch my neighbors laugh it up, washing and drying to their hearts content while I hang my clothes on a trailer park style laundry line...

I don't see any other feature sets offered on this new phone that are not on my W other than the memory issue. Palm doesn't owe me a new phone, but they should AT LEAST offer some similar phone or path to upgrade across all of the carriers who were hobbled w/ the existing junk that is the 700W (read: Verizon)

[gadgetluva]

I don't agree with the car analogy, although the contractor analogy up there fits better. As such, I don't know what Palm was trying to advertise as normal. I do know the company never really stated the RAM. But it never stated that it had 64mb of RAM when it was really 32mb. Also, even if I buy something online, when I'm spending a few hundred dollars, I try not to depend on the internet. I usually walk into the verizon or whatever store it is and I play with the device. I hold it, I check the settings, I do things that I know I'll use it for. Then I go home, read up on it, decide if I want it. I didn't do that with my 8125 because I wanted to get it ASAP, before it was in the stores. Given some info. I had read about online, I decided that it was worth the risk at the price I had to pay to get it. And if it didn't work out, I still had the return policy or I could turn to ebay. No, its not good that Palm/vzw released a treo with so little ram. I would be upset too. But at the same token, I would be to blame as well. If you're upset with the company, don't buy the product. Tell others about your experience. Cancel your vzw service and move on.

I'm wondering if everyone would be as upset if the 700wx came with wifi. Would you guys be threatening to sue? Would you be looking to cancel? The 700w DID work with the measly amount of RAM. I've read that many people with minimal 3rd party apps don't have too many issues with their device. But being PPC users and having such a powerful OS, you can sure bet that most of us want to add these great programs and tinker a bit.

As you can tell, I'm not really on any side. I never got a 700w, and I'll be honest - I'm glad I didn't. After playing with one at a vzw, I wanted one. But not enough to actually get one. I checked the RAM and realized that for my uses, the 17mb it had free after a reset just wouldn't cut it. So I moved on.

[SamT]

...snip... Palm doesn't owe me a new phone, but they should AT LEAST offer some similar phone or path to upgrade across all of the carriers who were hobbled w/ the existing junk that is the 700W (read: Verizon)

But therein lies the issue. Palm cannot do this for now, they have no option. Forget about Palm coming out independently with this. They need Verizon's blessing to do anything for Verizon customers.

And if there is an upgrade you can be sure that VZW will charge you full retail price for it.

This is exactly the crux of some of my earlier arguments. Palm needs to be able to issue unlocked CDMA phones without fear of their ESNs being blacklisted.