[Woof]

So you're saying the blame really DOES fall directly back onto Palm. If Verizon, the network provider, told Palm, the phone provider, "32 MB is plenty," and Palm, with their reputation at risk said, "sounds good," then who's really to blame?

Youre assuming here that Palm thinks their reputation is on the line.

OK lets use your logic in an analogy.

Contractor builds houses. Contractor offers certain house to Develoer A with certain specifications. Developer A orders houses to these specs and they are built. Process is repeated throughout a large subdivision and the houses are identical, feature wise (i.e. carpet, countertops, appliances etc.) Customer A buys one of these homes.

Same contractor gets involved in another subdivision. Developer B wants to offer these new homes with better carpet, granite counter tops, high end appliances, central air, etc. Customer B buys one of these homes.

Using the Palm suing logic, the Customer A should sue the contractor because the home of Customer B has better features. Am I the only one who thinks this is asinine? No one MADE Customer A buy from Dev A. That was his CHOICE!!!

Yes this is not the exact same as a phone but the concept of the argument is the same. Its the manufacturers(Palm/contractor) responsibility to provide its customers (Verizon/Dev A - Sprint/Dev B) with the products they ask for. It is not their responsibility to anticipate the wants and whims of every end user and provide every conceivable feature.

[xtant21]

Yeah I can understand a reset once in a while but when you have to reset it at least twice a day then it becomes an issue. I am not a consumer that will sit idlely by and let a large corporation give it to me up the a**. And then say can I have another.

If I spend good hard earned money on a tech product then I want it to work the way that it is suppose to.

The upgrade in memory is not an advancement in the technology. It is a requirement for the device to work properly. Use your device as much as most of us that are complaining do and see what your reaction is.

I am not some rich fool that can blow $700 dollars every other week.

What is the real issue? Is it that you aren't quite used to dealing with the inherit WM5 memory allocation problems? Again...your reset is not really a function of RAM amount...my 64mb device gets reset 2 maybe 3 times a day too. Nobody stuck it to you...there are plenty of threads on TC let alone articles on the web about Windows Mobile in general let alone WM5 that it requires more TLC, care and attention to detail from the user in regards to memory usage. It's a memory pig. Like anything MSFT...the more RAM you give the OS...the more it will use. You'll still have to play the teter-totter game between storage and application RAM. It's a fact of life in WM.

If you really feel that your issues are so bad...maybe it'd time to not blame how much RAM is in it...but maybe that you might possibly have a defective unit. These things happen...yes they are frustrating but it is an unfortunate thing that does happen. I personally know a lot of people quite happy with their 32mb WM5 Treo and have very little if any issues. I've used one for two weeks...and never really had a problem. And trust me...I used it and every feature to it way more than probably 95% of the people on TC. I can put any smartphone through it's paces.

I agree...I'm not some rich fool that can dump money on a new smartphone every six months either. That's why I weigh my choices VERY heavily...I use the phone in the store and read reviews. I understand what my needs are and correlate that to what I've read in reviews and learned by testing the devices to come up with a checklist for what I will need to make this device work for me. If something doesn't fit my criteria...I don't buy it.

Lastly, when you bought the device...you had a 15-day trial (sprint gives you 30 by the way) to see if the device would meet your needs. If the device is giving you so much trouble I find it hard to believe you didn't have some problems with it during that period in which to return it. You made a decision and (unfortunately in this case) stuck with it and now you are mad because something else that you PERCEIVE to be better has hit the market. Again...more RAM...probably won't fix your problem. You PERCEIVED the 32mb Treo as better than you had before.

All of you scream that the reviews all stated the device should have had 64mb on it back in January...why did you spend your hard earned money on it then? If everything was telling you that the device was inadequate then you shouldn't have bought it. You made the choice to buy it. The device (unless defective) does function as it should...just doesn't function how you want it to. How many third party apps are on it? If there is one extra app on there then you are using the device outside the OEM spec. Yes, you should be able to add software...but if THAT software makes your device fail...that's not Palm's fault they supplied the device in a working manner. You altered it by installing someone elses software. Palm can't be held liable for their software chewing up what precious RAM you have.

[Woof]

...snip... if you want a piece of the huge North American CDMA market you have to play by the telcos rules.

Sam

Here ya go. Verizon is to blame for the 32meg, not Palm.

[xtant21]

Am I the only one who thinks this is asinine? No one MADE Customer A buy from Dev A. That was his CHOICE!!!

Yes this is not the exact same as a phone but the concept of the argument is the same. Its the manufacturers(Palm/contractor) responsibility to provide its customers (Verizon/Dev A - Sprint/Dev B) with the products they ask for. It is not their responsibility to anticipate the wants and whims of every end user and provide every conceivable feature.

Amen. You are not alone in thinking this is asinine. Again...people make choices and then when things change they don't want to accept responsibility for their choices. Hindsight is indeed 20/20. Would these same people be as upset with Palm had they NOT offered a 64mb Treo WM5? Probably not...they may still wish it had more so they could do more with the device but I'm sure they wouldn't be threatening legal action.

The whole idea that more RAM will fix a reset problem is a dream. Trying to say that your device is defective because it has less RAM is just sad. I feel like I'm in kindergarten here. Well the Sprint guys got a better phone than us. Yeah well...the Verizon guys have at least HAD a WM5 for the last eight months. They had their time on the top of the WM5 list. Now it is New & Improved. <gasp>

Sprint probably paid attention to what was written about ANY shortcomings in the (I'll call it Rev.A) edition of the WM5 Treo. They decided that to entice customers they would want something that would be better...they chose more RAM as their improvement. Voila...we have Rev.B for Sprint.

Now people realize they made a hasty decision and could have waited for what they REALLY wanted and they don't want to take responsibility for their decision.

These are probably going to be the same people that will threaten to sue a carrier because their phone has the fastest EVDO Rev.0 on it...but EVDO Rev.A has just started to roll out. Are these same people going to sue the carrier because now there is a faster data connection? But I just bought my Rev.0 equipped phone!! Please people...suck it up already.

[whmurray]

I think the 700p is technically an "upgrade"

True for CDMA. There may even be a GSM/W. Nothing for GSM/P. We are still waiting with fading hope. Palm thinks that it is acceptable to ask one to convert either to a CDMA carrier or a MS operating system if we want high speed. Loss of coverage, flexibility, and years of experience. They just don't get it.

[surur]

Xtant21, we are obviously not going to agree. Why dont we just let the court decide ?

Surur

[xtant21]

Xtant21, we are obviously not going to agree. Why dont we just let the court decide ?

Surur

We agree to disagree...gotta love this country.

..And just so you don't resort to CALs...I'll see if there is any interest in starting a collection to see if I can round up enough $$$ to get you a new Treo. $700 is way cheaper than lawyer fees.

[jimmiegeddes]

A court case??? It's an upgrade to a phone that was announced last September and shipped in January. I understand Verizon owners are miffed, but c'mon a class action suit??

[Woof]

Whats next? Owners of cars with 8tracks suing cause they didnt get a cassette?

[littlewaywelt]

Whats next? Owners of cars with 8tracks suing cause they didnt get a cassette?

There have been several actions because manufacturers didn't accurately report the horsepower and the plaintiffs won. The question is whether or not Verizon is misleading people the way they report the available memory.

[savior1974]

There have been several actions because manufacturers didn't accurately report the horsepower and the plaintiffs won. The question is whether or not Verizon is misleading people the way they report the available memory.

Hell no they are not misleading. People knew how much memory was in the device when the bought it. Now that a newer and better one is comming out they're getting pissed which is rediculous. If that's the case, EVERYONE should sue computer companies becuase when I bought my computer it was top of the line, but 6 months later they wanna go ahead and make a better computer with less flaws.

And car companies should be sued too. In 2005 BMW sold the 745LI as one of there flagship cars right below the 760. And because of slow sales, they did a last minute update to the styling and the engine and out comes a 750LI with more HP and better looks. I guess all the 745 owners should sue because its not fair they spent 70K+ on a car that would be surpassed next year.

Thats so rediculous. When you Verizon owners bought the phones, you were given 14-30days to test the phones out. And they were good enough for you to keep them then. So now when sprint is getting a better phone, why is there all of a sudden a talk of suing?

[whmurray]

Hell no they are not misleading. People knew how much memory was in the device when the (sic) bought it..........

Literally true. They knew what it had; few of the newbies who bought the device knew what it needed.

[I commented at the time that there was a huge difference between the memory in the 700w and that in other w devices. Those who bought the 700w got Palm size memory without Palm OS memory efficiency. Even for POS, 32M was very tight.]

[littlewaywelt]

Hell no they are not misleading. People knew how much memory was in the device when the bought it. Now that a newer and better one is comming out they're getting pissed which is rediculous. If that's the case, EVERYONE should sue computer companies becuase when I bought my computer it was top of the line, but 6 months later they wanna go ahead and make a better computer with less flaws.

And car companies should be sued too. In 2005 BMW sold the 745LI as one of there flagship cars right below the 760. And because of slow sales, they did a last minute update to the styling and the engine and out comes a 750LI with more HP and better looks. I guess all the 745 owners should sue because its not fair they spent 70K+ on a car that would be surpassed next year. Suing over something like that is rediculous. Suing when a car is reported to have 300hp & 300ftlb of torque, but the car only has access to 200ftlb of torque in auto tranis for the first two gears or when they outright massively overstate a car's horsepower, those are entirely different issues than what you're describing. There's no case for action because a new model is out. There is case for action when the manufacturer misleads the consumer. ...and again, I'm not stating that either the former or the later is is happening here.

Thats so rediculous. When you Verizon owners bought the phones, you were given 14-30days to test the phones out. And they were good enough for you to keep them then. So now when sprint is getting a better phone, why is there all of a sudden a talk of suing?

I'm not advocating suing over something like this.
...and I think their language is very misleading to the average consumer with regards to memory. Show me anywhere where it states that you have 25mb of program memory or that you never have access to more than 12mb of that. ...You can't and that's what is very misleading. That is what might be actionable. Of course there is no cause for action because a new better model is out. A return period is irrelevant.
re the bmw case, they refreshed because the design received horrible reviews and sales plummeted. That's completely different than a car having horsepower overstated by 10%.

[savior1974]

That's completely different than a car having horsepower overstated by 10%.

Yeah I know, My GF had an 03 Hyundai TiburonV6 6speed. And when she bought the car, Hyundai was claiming 185hp. But later on, we find it only has 170 crank hp, which means even less to the wheels. They gave you the opprotunity to return the car but we were happy with the car though.

[Kupe]

Youre assuming here that Palm thinks their reputation is on the line.

Because it is.

[SNIP long pointless analogy]

Using the Palm suing logic, the Customer A should sue the contractor because the home of Customer B has better features. Am I the only one who thinks this is asinine? No one MADE Customer A buy from Dev A. That was his CHOICE!!!

Not sure why you bundled me in with the suing crowd because I think this is frvolous. I'm simply a member of the "never again" crowd when it comes to purchasing Palm products based on Palm's sustained record for good-looking, clever-design, poor-implementation products.

Its the manufacturers(Palm/contractor) responsibility to provide its customers (Verizon/Dev A - Sprint/Dev B) with the products they ask for.

So it's your supposition Verizon requested Palm to build a crippled phone with specs well below the market average so they could sell it at a premium? That's priceless. Someday, you should be introduced to the concept of Occam's Razor. That might prevent you from crediting Verizon with way more savvy about PDA Phones that you seem to think they have.

[whmurray]

.........I'm simply a member of the "never again" crowd when it comes to purchasing Palm products based on Palm's sustained record for good-looking, clever-design, poor-implementation products...........

I have to agree with your characterization of the record. However, I would give special credit for Palm OS and long battery life. I do not think Palm understands the contribution to its success of POS. I think that many of the other design and implementation choices are related to the battery life.

That said, even with the record, I confess that I like the Treo better than its competition.

[whmurray]

Youre assuming here that Palm thinks their reputation is on the line.

Whatever Palm thinks, their reputation is now so well established that it is not likely any one product, decision, or trading partner is going to move it much. That reputation is pro-trading partner and anti-end user; it is for good design and just-good-enough execution. It is for hopeful leaks and disappointing delivery. They are probably very happy with it.

[audiofx81]

I have been on sprint and verizon on and off a few times this year (i have a phone problem The 700w DOES NOT NEEED more memory to work. Mark the words NEED. Does it suck for multitasking? YES. Does the phone function as advertised with low mem. YES. This thread can go on and on but the fact is Verizon wanted to be the first and the early adopters followed. We are tlaking 8 months later here in the tech world. Carriers are always up and down as far as phone lineup. This is NO ONES FAULT. This is just the way technology works. Sprint probably demanded they increase the mem or they wouldnt carry it, palm as a business said fine. Since this is America and everyone wants to sue everyone and make it that much "better" of a place to live, something will probably end up court. I hate all you people that wanna sue for everything, specially over a phone. Your just driving consumer costs up even higher. Grow up.

[gadgetluva]

As I recall, it was prevalent knowledge that the 700w had 32mb of RAM. Many reviews stated that it was a shortcoming. Did that stop you guys? Nope, you made a decision that you could live with it. Verizon also has a 15 day (maybe 30?) return policy. So you all had in-hand experience with the phone to decide if it was worth it or not. Sorry, no sympathy here.

[audiofx81]

As I recall, it was prevalent knowledge that the 700w had 32mb of RAM. Many reviews stated that it was a shortcoming. Did that stop you guys? Nope, you made a decision that you could live with it. Verizon also has a 15 day (maybe 30?) return policy. So you all had in-hand experience with the phone to decide if it was worth it or not. Sorry, no sympathy here.

I agree 100%. I had the 700w for a while when it first came out. Then Had a Q then back to the 700w and ultimatley back to a 6700 as its the most powerful still. Did i yell at verizon? no. Did i even get mad? At myself only. If your on this forum in the first place it is because you are somewhat passionate about your phone. This also means you've most likely got a bit more knowledge then the average joe. This then leads me to believe there was no way you bought the device without following up on all the PRE reviews before the release and about 800 different comments, reviews, and user reviews on the device. I will be going back to sprint with a 700wx as the sero plan cant be beat and i don't feel verizons slightly better service is worth my $175 monthly phone bills. Just a word to the wise, if you are thinking of going to sprint, be ready to handle horrible C.S. i can deal with it. Those who need to be pampered as customers stick with vzw, as there customer service rocks.