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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by treoshmeo
    You think it's because US citizens are just too dumb to figure out the basics?
    ding, ding, ding!!!! we have a winner!
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  2. #82  
    Mr. Shmeo you are good. You just will not answer the question will you? Are you a politician? I would vote for you. Politics is the same as big business. The american public are sheep. It's not that we don't have the capacity to think. It's just that it's easier to follow. That's why we all watch 30 minutes of news everyday and are instantly turned into domestic and foreign policy experts. The same reason why everything we get for "free" is laced with ads. I'm not saying Microsoft or any other giant is some morally great entity. I'm just saying they have a business plan and they execute it to maximize their dollars. Although they don't go out of their way to educate the public they don't have an obligation to either. Oil companies are not going to start educating the public about Ethanol all of a sudden are they?

    By the way, the computer/tech industry in general is very guilty of releasing partial upgrades to resale to the same consumers. Are you telling me that they couldn't make a 700 gig hard drive 2 years ago?
  3.    #83  
    I hear ya... touche. But actually, I did answer the question. Included within the sheep are those who need answers to questions like "is Microsoft targeting the majority or minority of users?" Let me ask you this question -- if you are an imbecile or a genius and want to run the most popular software available, what non-Microsoft operating system would you choose? MacOS is obviously not included within the answer set. The answer is that the question is irrelevant because the typical laws of supply and demand do not apply.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTreo
    My point, BTW, is simply that Jack is in the minority of computer users. He is affected by the pull on system resources created by this issue. A solution doesn't exist because MS has chosen to target it's majority to make the most money with the least effort and expense. So this leaves Jack to find answers on his own. I simply threw out one possible answer (Win2k) of course there are others.
    I must not be getting my point across. Let me try it this way:

    1. MS jumped late into the browser arena adding MSIE to the OS with Win95OSR2.

    2. Nobody wanted MSIE so with Win98, they embedded it in the OS.

    I am not saying that they should not have provided it. They had two options:

    a) Continue to include MSIE in the OS but allow the user to uninstall it if he / she didn't want it.
    b) Embed it in the OS so one could not uninstall it.

    We all know they chose b) but it seems 3rd party programers were smarter than theri programmers.

    Now with regard to the majority of computer users who you say MS is right to target. How would their experience be in any way diminished if they had chosen option a) ? The schpeil that Redmond throws out they they are only doing what the market asks is baloney (as opposed to bologna). Yes, 90 % of the market is satisfied that they chose option b) but 100% of the market would have been satisfied with Option a).

    It's not "why include it ?", its "why make us live with it ? It would have been easier, faster, more economical and better for everyone if they left it the way it was. However, they chose to embed it into one product to the detriment of a signiifcant portion of their users for the purposes of leveraging themselves into other markets.

    Yes I want my car to come with a set of tires but if I don't like the brand that my car comes with the only option MS gives me is to drive around with 8 tires on my car and deal with the severe mileage penalty that would go with that. No one has a problem with the car coming with tires, but forcing us to either use their tire or use 8 tires is ridiculous and should not be permitted.

    Let's look at another of MS's update.....where is this going ?

    a) With Windows Update 1, you logged on to the MS site, your puter downloaded a list of version numbers. Then your puter compared what it got with what it had and created a "I need this stuff" list. This list was then sent to the MS server and you were prompted to d/l the stuff you needed. The only info collected by MS is the list of updates your machine asked for.

    b) With Windows Update 2, you log onto the MS site and MS collects the version numbers of every application on your computer (plus whatever else they decide to colelct since you have given them an open door) then after logging all of YOUR info on their server, they compare it with the current list and send a list to your puter of "stuff you need to d/l".

    Now why the change from 1 to 2 ? Why invest the T, E & M (time, effort and moola) into something that already did the job ? What do we have to fear may be coming down the road in this regard ? By collecting this info, MS servers are now capable of checking (not saying they are at this time but capable of checking) whether you have a license for all of the software on your machine. I don't necessarily have a problem with that.

    What I do have a problem with is the "self help" featrures built into the OS and programs which allow them to be shut off remotely. You may have heard of UCITA and the AFFECT coaltion which is fighting it (I serve on AFFECT's Legislative Committee) . UCITA says that if a vendor suspects you are using their software illegaly, they can shut you down. It also says they you can not hold them liable for damages if they do so unjustly.

    So let's say a vendor claims that my support contract is not up to date or that the software I am using is licensed to someone else and they shut me down. I have 10 employees sitting around the office for 4 days twiddling thier thumbs until vendor says whoops we made a mistake. I am out 4 days x 10 peeps x 8 hours x $150 or $48,000 and they get to say "Sorry we made a mistake, we had misplaced the letter you sent us saying that you upgraded all your office computers and moved the software to new workstations which you now placed in the subsidiery's name instead of the parent corp name. We are turning you back on now but according to UCITA we are not liable for the losses you experienced as a result of our negligence."

    This law was passed in Maryland and Virginia before AFFECT mobilized to fight it. It has since been defeated in every state since. Note that this law also says that vendors can write their license agreements with "choice of law" provisions. Normally, if you live in California and the vendor is based in NY, moist likely NY law would apply, perhaps California law. But the choice of law provision allows a NY company in "contract" with a California resident to have any dispute decided in a state of their choosing. So vendors can pick the sate which has the most favorable law even if neitehr party resides there.

    See for more info if interested
  5. #85  
    Well I guess it's settled then. Microsoft is a monster. I'm just glad they provide the software that allows me to make a living. If not them some other monster would do it.
  6. #86  
    Jack, Windows is not Linux. You cant uninstall the windowing system, and you cant uninstall DirectX. You cant uninstall the foundations of the OS. You may de-activate them, but then some things will stop working. Now you may not be using the things that are not working, and be happy with the boost in performance. However this does not mean the OS is not broken, and if some-one else were to try to use your computer in a different way they may run into a whole lot of problems. You install HTML, and suddenly Norton anti virus GUI does not work, and your HTML e-mail cant display, and your help files wont work, and MSMoney wont work, and you cant edit web pages in word, and you cant buy music using windows media player, and napster does not work, and Real Rhapsody does not work, and MSN Messenger does not work, and Yahoo messenger does not work, and google earth does not work etc. etc etc.

    If you demand that level of customizable, use Linux. Dependency hell is expected there.

  7. #87  
    I don't recall saying anything about actual parts of the operating system such as the windowing system and video handling subsystems. I am talking about APPLICATIONS. Things that at one time existed as separate applications and which MS, unable to compete on the open market decided to bundle into the OS. The ONLY reason, in MS's own words as evidenced by the leaked e-mails in the trial, that MS embedded the browser was because they could not otherwise compete with netscape.

    Windows existed for a long time w/o a web browser and a media player. A web browser is independent of the function of an operating system defined as "software designed to control the hardware of a specific computer system in order to allow users and applications to employ it effectively".

    Yes, MS said in court that it was part of the OS and the OS would not work without and they were caught in the lie by the governemnt's expert witness who removed IE and had the OS working fine. MS then said it would be slower and again they were caught with a faked video and it was proved that the OS was faster without IE.

    I don't have IE on the box I am typing from and Quickbooks works fine, my AV GUI works fine, my HTML e-mail dispalys fine, I edit web pages just fine using Adobe GoLive, wouldn't think of using WMP or MSN messenger but use competitive products just fine w/o MSIE. This box used to have Trilllian to manage yahoo, MSN, AIM and other accounts w/o issue till corporate policy banned any form of IM. I have used Google earth via Mozilla w/o issue.

    I did have to install MSIE once on this box to do an application install and raised hell with the program vendor in that regard. I didn't object so much after they told me to simply uninstall MSIE after the install was completed.
  8. #88  
    Jack, operating systems grow with time. As you probably know, windows did not used to come with a TCP stack. Should winsock now sue MS on an anti-trust basis? It did not come with a photo viewer. Should ACDC now sue? How about automatically copying my photos from my memory card, or printing multiple photos on a page. Should Kodak or HP sue? Being able to render HTML is as fundamental as being able to render buttons on an app, and these days they are both used about equally.

    Its your out-dated concept of what an OS is which is causing your perception problem.

  9. #89  
    Surur - Microsoft is a monster that must be destroyed! Resistance is futile!!!
  10.    #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Jack, operating systems grow with time. As you probably know, windows did not used to come with a TCP stack. Should winsock now sue MS on an anti-trust basis? It did not come with a photo viewer. Should ACDC now sue? How about automatically copying my photos from my memory card, or printing multiple photos on a page. Should Kodak or HP sue? Being able to render HTML is as fundamental as being able to render buttons on an app, and these days they are both used about equally.

    Its your out-dated concept of what an OS is which is causing your perception problem.
    Since when should an *operating system* come with all those *specialized applications?*" Operating system means operational components. What you are talking about is convenience. The problem is that it would be convenient to just have one install that includes all commonly used applications as well and then you'll forget what an OS is and what applications are. When you buy a Dell computer you get choices of add-ins that are easily understood. The same could and needs to be done with everything else until soon you will have an OS ship with a built in Word processor, spreadsheet app, desktop publishing app, browser, email app, media player for audio/video, instant messenger, graphics application, html editor and a few others. We're getting there. And in a few years there won't be any competition it will just be known as Windows Operating Suite.
  11. #91  
    ***g r o a n ***
  12. #92  
    And what does all this have to do with windows mobile, and why you hate it ( again )? Bye the way, have you gotten rid of that troublesome 700w yet, and gone back to your trusty 650 yet? If you still have it after all the trouble it's given you, then you my friend are a masochist, or just like to B***h..... To every problem there is a solution. Happiness is just an ebay listing away!
  13. #93  
    And yet, after all the beatings, the poor horse is still alive!
  14. #94  
    Jack does bring up some very good points and certainly has merit. During the 90s I worked for the merchandising company for Corel (WordPerfect, Corel Draw, etc...). I had the opportunity to see what MS did during that time frame that Jack is talking about.

    I know this is going to long, so skip if you don't want to read it, but there may be information that you did not know happened.

    Let me say straight out that I hold two levels of respect for MS. I can respect the man, his vision, and his company's rise to power. But what was done with that power once obtained is a totally different thing. There is a big difference between the two. I do have respect for the rise to power, NO respect for the abuse of power, and dependent on the results of that abuse of power in my daily professional life.

    The reason we are so dependent now on MS is because of the illegal activities they did a decade ago. Here are some examples, some were known to the public and some were not and I know from hanging at a major competitor's corp office several times a year.

    No one doubts that Netscape ruled the Internet Browser world. MS realized the growing potential browser could / would play in the future. As Jack said MS tried to compete with Netscape and was failing miserably.

    MS went to Netscape and made an offer. They offered to give Netscape the whole market for Mac, Linux, Unix, etc.... as long as they did not compete for the Win platform. This is known as splitting the market and is totally illegal among the dominant players. Netscape refused. The exact quote as MS left the room was "We will then suffocate you".

    They then went to Apple and told them that they would stop using Netscape as the default browser and start using IE. Apple refused. Now, Apple was VERY close to going under and closing it's doors forever at this time. MS had spent millions and several years developing MS Office for Mac and was very willing to throw away years of development and eat the loss of the millions spent and threatened Apple that if they did not dump Netscape that they would never release MS Office for Mac.....and event that would have surely been a nothing more than a death sentence for Apple at that time. MS Office for the Mac was virtually a solid monopoly on that platform. Apple was forced to comply. MS used one monopoly to help create another one. An illegal act.

    They then went to AOL and asked them to dump Netscape as their default browser. AOL refused. MS was just about to start MSN, which no one knew at the time was going all but flop. Even though AOL paid to have their icon on the desktop of Win OS, MS threatened that if they did not dump Netscape and use IE the would go against their contract, remove any reference to AOL, and place MSN everywhere possible in the upcoming Win95 OS release. Fearful of the upcoming MSN, they complied and dumped Netscape. Again using the OS monopoly to help form another one, or this case potentially two. An illegal act.

    MS then started to offer their browser for free, using the OS monopoly profits to cover the loss. A direct attack against Netscape. Then in court it was proved by MS own emails that they were going to embed IE into the OS more for market share than for tech reasons.

    Just shortly after after and overlapping the Browser War MS and Sun Microsystems were in a war of it's own. MS recognized, and flat stated, that Java could run on any OS and they saw this as a direct threat to their OS dominance.

    They licensed Java from Sun to include in their OS. They then, against contracts signed, got caught and sued over changing the code to intentionally develop errors with Java.

    After they got caught doing this and ordered to use the correct code, they refused to include Java in their OS. Do you ever remember loading a New MS OS and then have having to download Java separately the first time you used it? This is why.

    As you may know WordPerfect used to rule the roost in the Office Suite world. Now, MS Office is the only game in town. Here is what MS did during the 90s to use one monopoly to develop another one.

    Computer manufacturers would have to pay a license fee to install on their computers. Fine, no problem. For easy numbers lets say the license fee is $100. Then MS would go to the manufacturers and say, "Hey if you also put MS Works on the system we will knock $20 off the OS license fee." Let's see, if they built 10,000 computers that month...that would save them $200,000 a month and $2,400,000 a year. Sounded good to them. Then MS would say, if you put Encarta on it, we knock off another $10, MS Money another $10 gone, etc...which would then multiple their yearly savings (or increased profits) by millions of dollars. But if they put any other competitor's office software (i.e. WordPerfect) on the system...even if they still kept all of the agreed upon MS extra software, their OS license discount was taken away and back up to full price. Totally illegal, using one Monopoly to attempt to develop others.

    A VERY high ranking Corel exec told me in 1998 or 1999 that Compaq wanted to offer Corel WordPerfect pre-installed on their computers next to MS Office Works. MS went ballistic. As soon as MS got wind of this they flew down to Compaq and told Compaq, and I quote "If you do this, we will make it Hell for you!" and stormed out of the office without getting a response from the Compaq execs. Compaq coward down to MS.

    At this time Compaq had an exclusive computer deal with Radio Shack. So they decided to offer WP on all Radio Shack computers. Compaq was just about to publish a press release when MS came down again and told Compaq that they will NOT even publish that press release on their own product. Compaq never did.

    During the late 1990s Corel made a pledge to further the research in Linux and give full support for apps and OS development. They were a major financial force behind WINE (which allowed programs written for Win OS to run on Linux OS). Corel started porting every software package to Linux. This started to give Linux a major Office Suite, WordPerfect. This gave it a major professional level victor and bitmap graphics suite, Corel Draw (the equivalent to Adobe Illustrator & PhotoShop). They committed to porting over their whole line of software.

    Corel also developed one of the first noobie, lowest common denominator installations of Linux of the major challenges at the time. It received award after award for how easy it made it to install the Linux OS.

    Then when Corel hit some hard times, MS stepped in and bought (something like) 20% non voting rights shares of Corel. This was for a couple reasons. It needed Corel to stay alive so it could claim their MS Office Suite was not another monopoly.

    The other generated a congressional investigation, that even though I followed it as closely as I could, I never heard the outcome of it...nothing came out about their findings either way. The investigation was triggered when 6 months after MS bought into Corel, and after Corel committed itself to promoting and spreading Linux with a great deal of success and world recognition for it's innovated advances for Linux......Corel dropped all Linux support, porting programs to Linux, and discontinued all Linux development.

    Bristol offered new and innovated software solutions, video if memory serves me right, but not 100%. MS did not have anything to compete against it yet. Bristol paid for the source code to hook their software in the Win OS. MS refused and delay to give them information for years. Only after MS released their answer to their software, did MS give the the code info they paid for years ago and contractually had the right to have.

    MS was sued over this and lost big time when found guilty.

    Begin to see a pattern during the 90s?

    This is not to say that MS didn't have it's fair share of failures as well. Need I say anymore than.....Microsoft Bob!

    MSN never caught on and never did become the death of AOL.

    Their hand in going against Tivo with the Ultimate was pulled back. (I personally loved our Ultimate than any Tivo I have had, I was actually sorry to see that one go).

    No matter if you love MS or if you hate MS. If you boycott MS products and use only MAC, Palm, and Linux. Or if you use anything MS from games to OS to Cell Phone OS. They are here. We all have to, or enjoy to, use their products. But I do think it is important to know how it came to be like it is today. They used illegal, unethical, immoral tactics after they rose to power to expand that power into areas that they could not compete successfully in on a level playing field.

    Again, I use WinXP, and like it. I use WinMobile and think it is the best solution for me at the moment. I own an Xbox and enjoy playing it more than my Gamecube a lot of time. I have full positive respect for how MS came to power. I do NOT have respect with how they have used and abused that power. And that no matter what has happened, I realize that I have to make the best choice to make me as productive in my professional life as possible.....and for me, no matter what my personal opinions are, it is more often than not a choice to use MS.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/07/2006 at 03:30 PM.
  15. #95  
    Well stated, HIR.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    They used illegal, unethical, immoral tactics after they rose to power to expand that power into areas that they could not compete successfully in on a level playing field.
    Big business and politics are the same. Another mainstay of American life.

    Like you said Hobbes, in the end you have to make a decision that best solves your individual needs.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTreo
    Big business and politics are the same. Another mainstay of American life.
    If you haven't read in the OT forum, in business or politics, I think all should be held accountable for their illegal actions. This is the issue that MS just slid right on by. I personally think the initial judgment of having MS split was appropriate given their actions internally and externally. But it was then over thrown due to the technicality that the judge gave an outside interview.

    So yup, we no matter if the options today are the result of simply superior innovation from a better company or the illegal acts to crush and dominate several areas with all but total monopolies, we have to make the best choice for ourselves to be productive today.
  18. #98  
    Just as it's no accident that Microsoft is the dominant giant that it is today, it's also not an accident that America is the dominant giant that it is today. There are many similarities to both of their rise to power. The major difference is that Microsoft doesn't have armed forces loaded with the latest and greatest destructive technology to back it up.
  19. #99  
    BigTreo......just curious, in the Business world do you support illegal actions to gain dominance?
  20.    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTreo
    Just as it's no accident that Microsoft is the dominant giant that it is today, it's also not an accident that America is the dominant giant that it is today. There are many similarities to both of their rise to power. The major difference is that Microsoft doesn't have armed forces loaded with the latest and greatest destructive technology to back it up.
    And in China and India they use slave labor which is why the US will cease being the world power it has been sooner than we like to admit. What's your point?
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