[deesugar]

Does anyone work in the hardware world? Problems are seldom solved by blindly throwing resources (money) at it...

It worked for Iraq and that other war we're in.... No wait.

[patricksmangan]

Probably they're opening up a whole new class of products (aside from smartphones and tablets) that's why they can't really say anything about it.

Maybe SMARTprinters?

SMARTtoasters?

Jon DID say webOS devices will BOOM 12-18 months from now. That's pretty long-range to me.

I really don't want anything else with webos on it lol. Tablet MIGHT be useful, but I don't need more webos products.

[LordSecksie]

For those expecting him to show a phone or leak out information that YOU want to here, I think you kind of lost the point of focus with this conversation. This isn't a Palm/HP event. Dont get me wrong, I would have loved to hear about new phones, and where their roadmap leads them. But thats not what he was there for. But I am very pleased with the little bit he has said. Its obvious that webOS is still learning to walk and HP is putting alot behind it to bring it from an infantile crawl to an olympic sprint. Jon said we will see webOS on multiple devices and tablets coming up, even sort of leaving printers in a whole different category. To me, what he said was not only Smartphones and Tablets, but other things related to them and qualify to be in that category. I know that may not be interesting in the eyes of those of you that are only focused on Phones, but for the rest of us that are PALM and webOS lovers, thats a great thing to hear. He also stated that there will be an aggressive push for the new products they have in store for us. I expect after CES (The Appropriate Time For The Appropriate Announcement) the flood gates will open. HP is no baby faced company, so I expect ads, commercials, internet ads, etc. I think the Pre was Palms final goodbye in the smartphone world. They already knew they werent going to be able to compete or keep up with the likes of the iPhone (Jon said it himself.) The Pre2 in my eyes is sort of like a rumor of things to come. It has people wondering about webOS 2.0 and even puts it out there for people to see. CES will be the "Official Trailer" showing people exactly whats to come....not only the smartphone world (which is the only thing some of you care about), but also in the electronic world (tablets, PC, webOS type iPod, Media Devices, etc). Many of you think that Palm has lost momentum and people have lost interest in it. Thats far from true. Look at whats been coming out lately with RIM and their webOS like Tablet, WM7 and its webOS like user friendly interface, and even iOS with its webOS like focus on multitasking. These people are watching! Developers are watching and waiting. Believe me, these developers are waiting, like us, for an official copy of this "roadmap." Why? Because its another way to put some money in their pockets. Any TRUE business man knows different options and choices in ways to make a buck is nothing but positive. Jon is not a dumb man, and if he felt the future in webOS was going to be a waste of time and effort, he would still be retired. He has no reason to "hope" webOS will be successful. He is probably still eating off of ipod money. He even gave us a personal message "Be Patient." Most of you complaining and saying NOW NOW NOW are the types of people that companies love. They will milk you for their money. Android and Apple are waiting for you with open arms and treats in their hands. If you're a "Now" person, then go right ahead. Palm and HP arent worried or threatened by it. You wanna know why???? Because you are a "NOW" person. The minute they (HP/Palm) let loose their products, and you have started anew with that other company, you will turn around, look at Palm and go "I NOW Want That!" and will come back. You guys arent the only ones in the world with a desire for a new phone or not stuck in contracts. There will be many more that will come. I'll patiently wait. Believe it or not, I felt the same exact way about Apple, when all they Windows lovers bashed Apple fans. "Just be patient and watch what apples going to do." i said. Think about the big picture. I bet none of you thought that a company (Apple) making colorful laptops and desktops that were a joke, would be the same company that has the iPod, iPad, iPhone, and Macs line up, did you? Be Patient. Jon knows what he is doing.

[morrison0880]

For those expecting him to show a phone or leak out information that YOU want to here, I think you kind of lost the point of focus with this conversation. This isn't a Palm/HP event. Dont get me wrong, I would have loved to hear about new phones, and where their roadmap leads them. But thats not what he was there for. But I am very pleased with the little bit he has said. Its obvious that webOS is still learning to walk and HP is putting alot behind it to bring it from an infantile crawl to an olympic sprint. Jon said we will see webOS on multiple devices and tablets coming up, even sort of leaving printers in a whole different category. To me, what he said was not only Smartphones and Tablets, but other things related to them and qualify to be in that category. I know that may not be interesting in the eyes of those of you that are only focused on Phones, but for the rest of us that are PALM and webOS lovers, thats a great thing to hear. He also stated that there will be an aggressive push for the new products they have in store for us. I expect after CES (The Appropriate Time For The Appropriate Announcement) the flood gates will open. HP is no baby faced company, so I expect ads, commercials, internet ads, etc. I think the Pre was Palms final goodbye in the smartphone world. They already knew they werent going to be able to compete or keep up with the likes of the iPhone (Jon said it himself.) The Pre2 in my eyes is sort of like a rumor of things to come. It has people wondering about webOS 2.0 and even puts it out there for people to see. CES will be the "Official Trailer" showing people exactly whats to come....not only the smartphone world (which is the only thing some of you care about), but also in the electronic world (tablets, PC, webOS type iPod, Media Devices, etc). Many of you think that Palm has lost momentum and people have lost interest in it. Thats far from true. Look at whats been coming out lately with RIM and their webOS like Tablet, WM7 and its webOS like user friendly interface, and even iOS with its webOS like focus on multitasking. These people are watching! Developers are watching and waiting. Believe me, these developers are waiting, like us, for an official copy of this "roadmap." Why? Because its another way to put some money in their pockets. Any TRUE business man knows different options and choices in ways to make a buck is nothing but positive. Jon is not a dumb man, and if he felt the future in webOS was going to be a waste of time and effort, he would still be retired. He has no reason to "hope" webOS will be successful. He is probably still eating off of ipod money. He even gave us a personal message "Be Patient." Most of you complaining and saying NOW NOW NOW are the types of people that companies love. They will milk you for their money. Android and Apple are waiting for you with open arms and treats in their hands. If you're a "Now" person, then go right ahead. Palm and HP arent worried or threatened by it. You wanna know why???? Because you are a "NOW" person. The minute they (HP/Palm) let loose their products, and you have started anew with that other company, you will turn around, look at Palm and go "I NOW Want That!" and will come back. You guys arent the only ones in the world with a desire for a new phone or not stuck in contracts. There will be many more that will come. I'll patiently wait. Believe it or not, I felt the same exact way about Apple, when all they Windows lovers bashed Apple fans. "Just be patient and watch what apples going to do." i said. Think about the big picture. I bet none of you thought that a company (Apple) making colorful laptops and desktops that were a joke, would be the same company that has the iPod, iPad, iPhone, and Macs line up, did you? Be Patient. Jon knows what he is doing.

Again that wall of text. Cliff notes please...
I seriously only read the first and last sentences of you post. Jon knows what he's doing? Is that why one year after the pre's release they had to sell the company to HP to avoid bankruptcy?

[patricksmangan]

Again that wall of text. Cliff notes please...
I seriously only read the first and last sentences of you post. Jon knows what he's doing? Is that why one year after the pre's release they had to sell the company to HP to avoid bankruptcy?

+1. You can only post that much if I can read it with animated page turning.

there is enough room in the sp market Is what he thinks we want to hear. If they take till 3q 2011 to ketch up to the competition, then they are out of that market. They won't make it till then

[LordSecksie]

+1. You can only post that much if I can read it with animated page turning.

there is enough room in the sp market Is what he thinks we want to hear. If they take till 3q 2011 to ketch up to the competition, then they are out of that market. They won't make it till then

LoL, yea you're right, that was kinda long. My apologies.

I dont think 3Q will push them out the market, but it will make it a lot harder to be successful, or at least as successful as we (and they) hope. Its def. going to be a battle uphill.

[patricksmangan]

I'm just listening to b.o.l. daily, and smartphones are going with moore's law. Webos has a few percentages of the market now. Q3 2011 is a year from now. If there's nothing new before then, webos is gna be all but forgotten!

unfortunately

[LordSecksie]

I'm just listening to b.o.l. daily, and smartphones are going with moore's law. Webos has a few percentages of the market now. Q3 2011 is a year from now. If there's nothing new before then, webos is gna be all but forgotten!

unfortunately

yea, unfortunately. Its going to take something major to be announced from HP to get them back on track. I hope they have one cuz I really like webOS on a smart phone.

[pastorich1]

If they take till 3q 2011 to ketch up to the competition, then they are out of that market. They won't make it till then

I disagree... selling a few smartphones (or not) to us tech happy geeks isn't going to make or break HP. They have a much bigger picture in mind and can afford to wait as long as they want or need to release new smartphones.

I get the impression they are attempting to integrate the WebOS platform into their business side of the house so that it is seamless and scalable without being all broken up into little updates and bug fixes. When they have a smartphone product that integrates well into that bigger picture is when we will see it being marketed heavily.

Of course I could care less about all of that and just want some new and exciting hardware with WebOS but it obviously isn't up to me.

[patricksmangan]

I disagree... selling a few smartphones (or not) to us tech happy geeks isn't going to make or break HP. They have a much bigger picture in mind and can afford to wait as long as they want or need to release new smartphones.

I get the impression they are attempting to integrate the WebOS platform into their business side of the house so that it is seamless and scalable without being all broken up into little updates and bug fixes. When they have a smartphone product that integrates well into that bigger picture is when we will see it being marketed heavily.

Of course I could care less about all of that and just want some new and exciting hardware with WebOS but it obviously isn't up to me.

yeah, but by sp market I mean smartphone market specifically.

yes, ruby did seem to think that a bunch of different types of products will attract dev's (that was his answer to that question) but I'm not even so sure about that. I'll see how it plays out tho. Sooner or later, hp will have to make webos surpass other os's in new and interesting ways, or they will allways be playing ketch up.

cool apps and features that are unique to your platform that you advertise makes regular buyers want a certain product over another also.

[morrison0880]

I disagree... selling a few smartphones (or not) to us tech happy geeks isn't going to make or break HP. They have a much bigger picture in mind and can afford to wait as long as they want or need to release new smartphones.

I have to disagree with you pastor, and that doesn't happen too often. HP and Palm are missing out on THE target demographic; the new smartphone consumer. Everywhere you look people are spouting off about how the smartphone market is tiny and the potential is huge. And that's true. The problem is that the newcomers are going to gravitate towards what's popular. They're going to begin by using the most familiar phones they can, because it is new territory. Those phones are droids, iphones, BB's, not HP webOS devices. There's no doubt that HP has a bigger picture. The problem is, that bigger picture may not be a realistic representation of the actual mindset of the new smartphone buyer.
Hell, most people I talk to who are new to the smartphone game call any Android device a "droid". The Evo is a "droid" The Epic is a "droid". They don't realize that Android is the OS and "droid" is a brand that belongs to Verizon. HP and Palm have a LONG way to go before they come close to meeting that sort of mindshare.

[hellonnnewman]

I disagree... selling a few smartphones (or not) to us tech happy geeks isn't going to make or break HP. They have a much bigger picture in mind and can afford to wait as long as they want or need to release new smartphones.

I get the impression they are attempting to integrate the WebOS platform into their business side of the house so that it is seamless and scalable without being all broken up into little updates and bug fixes. When they have a smartphone product that integrates well into that bigger picture is when we will see it being marketed heavily.

Of course I could care less about all of that and just want some new and exciting hardware with WebOS but it obviously isn't up to me.

Totally agree with you. People seem to think there is some narrow window that will close if HP doesn't get to market now. If that line of thought were true, Android would have died with the G1. The market is on pace to grow exponentially over the next several years and entering it with a new incarnation of webOS in a few months is just as good as now in the 'big picture'. Even if HP waited until next year and entered with some amazing product, people will always be drawn to the new shiny toy.

I'm with you.. I'm satisfied with webOS, but am ready to see some new hardware hit. But if having them do it right instead of coming out with some half-baked hardware means waiting... I able to wait. If others decide to leave, that's fine too because they'll be looking for the next shiny toy in another year. It's the nature of the market.

[patricksmangan]

like I said, it would need webos 3.0 at least on par with ios and android in functionality and api's, and really awesome hardware to gain any meaningful market share. Webos phones may not completely die, but we are all ready a minority sect

[morrison0880]

Totally agree with you. People seem to think there is some narrow window that will close if HP doesn't get to market now. If that line of thought were true, Android would have died with the G1. The market is on pace to grow exponentially over the next several years and entering it with a new incarnation of webOS in a few months is just as good as now in the 'big picture'. Even if HP waited until next year and entered with some amazing product, people will always be drawn to the new shiny toy.

I'm with you.. I'm satisfied with webOS, but am ready to see some new hardware hit. But if having them do it right instead of coming out with some half-baked hardware means waiting... I able to wait. If others decide to leave, that's fine too because they'll be looking for the next shiny toy in another year. It's the nature of the market.

Do you honestly believe that HP could come out with a new product in a year and it would be successful in the consumer space, not just with "techies" or Palm loyalists? Really? With the smartphone market growing rapidly, a very large number of people are going to be purchasing their first smartphones, and those are more than likely going to be either Android or iphone devices (for the most part). Having been acclimated to one OS after being locked in for 1-2 years, what makes you think they will be willing to switch? We're talking your average consumer here. Also, the specs of phones right now are getting to the point where there won't really be too much to differentiate them. The most probable result will be that people will look at the choices in front of them, and go with what's familiar, be it an OS they've used in the past, or an OS they know about through advertising/word of mouth. Unfortunately, webOS is not included in that group. See for yourself. Go ask any non-smartphone user you know what the iphone is. Then ask them if they know what a droid/Android is. Ask them what a Blackberry is. Then ask them what webOS is. Check the results for yourself, and then explain to me why things will change after those OS's have an even larger lead in the smartphone market that will be reaching critical mass in the very near future.

[pastorich1]

yes, ruby did seem to think that a bunch of different types of products will attract dev's (that was his answer to that question) but I'm not even so sure about that.
cool apps and features that are unique to your platform that you advertise makes regular buyers want a certain product over another also.

Actually, a huge market segment and customer base is what will attract devs, because that is where the money is. HP has a bigger connection with business than apple or android and it will be much easier for them to build on that segment and expand it by bringing their smartphone line seamlessly along side of their business productivity solutions. IF HP can make that connection, Apple and Android will be the ones trying to play catch up. Let’s see either of them develop and grow business productivity solutions to keep up with HP.

HP and Palm are missing out on THE target demographic; the new smartphone consumer. Everywhere you look people are spouting off about how the smartphone market is tiny and the potential is huge. And that's true. The problem is that the newcomers are going to gravitate towards what's popular. They're going to begin by using the most familiar phones they can, because it is new territory.

I think you misunderstand who THE target demographic is for HP Palm. Their target demographic is business and where business product sales, use and familiarity collide with consumer use is where the growth potential is in the industry. You don’t get market segment growth from existing users, that is just swappin’ spit back and forth. HP isn’t interested in swappin’ spit with Apple or Android in the smartphone business, they want to get their existing customer base on board with their new cloud based productivity package that includes smartphones. Then where that bleeds off into consumer use is just icing on the cake.

Totally agree with you.

Thank you sir.

[Voodoochild]

My thoughts are this,

HP could be successful if they wanted to. They have the money to make webos shine. If they put together a team to create truly good smartphones, and marketed it well, it could be successful. However, I have come to believe that they don't care for the smartphone market, they think its too risky and expensive to be a part of.

I'm not saying this as a fact, but if they don't do something major by ces then there really is no reason to continue hoping that something worth buying will ever come out. For those not looking for a smartphone, yeah webos is good as it is I guess, and the pre isn't completely horrendous. The problem is that there are people looking for a new phone, and waiting after ces is ridicules. After awhile it starts to get to the point where you feel like you are chasing a carrot on a treadmill.

/angryface

[hellonnnewman]

Yes I think it can be done because I've seen other electronics companies do it. In 15 years of selling high-end electronics, I've seen several companies do just that in emerging markets. HK, Nak, MacIntosh are just a few. I understand that you have an opinion and are passionate about it... but not everyone will agree. I think the market is fickle and people have short attention spans. Experiences and views will differ... I don't think it would be in HP's best interest to wait past CES - especially since Sprint went EOL with the Pre. But, (for the sake of argument forgetting MS just brought out a phone) if Microsoft had waited until next year to introduce a new phone - if it was an amazing piece of hardware, they would have still gotten huge sales. In a year, someone could tweak the heck out of Meego and introduce it. If it had amazing hardware and the OS was good, they'd pull a section of the pie. The consumer market is only a very small fraction of HP's focus and market. They are an enterprise company first and foremost and have the ability to use that muscle to be able to drive the consumer side of things no matter the market. Yeah.. you don't agree... but that's a forum.

[morrison0880]

I think you misunderstand who THE target demographic is for HP Palm. Their target demographic is business and where business product sales, use and familiarity collide with consumer use is where the growth potential is in the industry. You don’t get market segment growth from existing users, that is just swappin’ spit back and forth. HP isn’t interested in swappin’ spit with Apple or Android in the smartphone business, they want to get their existing customer base on board with their new cloud based productivity package that includes smartphones. Then where that bleeds off into consumer use is just icing on the cake.

Swappin spit. Thanks for the visual! =)

If HP's target demographic is the business segment, they are doomed.
When people talk of the huge market for smartphones, they are not talking about the business world. They are talking about the trend in mobile consuming among the public. Grandma's getting smartphones. Parents getting smartphones for the first time. Kids getting their first smartphone. THAT is the only market that really matters. Business use might have a small opening in it, but the consumer market is the holy grail. One that apple jumped on early, and android got into at the right time with the right strategy to compete with apple. Hell, many companies are integrating these OS's into their business structure.
As much as you might hope for it, the market does not work from business first, sliding to the general user. It is the direct opposite, and I'm sure HPalm knows this. If they don't, they're in trouble.

[patricksmangan]

Actually, a huge market segment and customer base is what will attract devs, because that is where the money is. HP has a bigger connection with business than apple or android and it will be much easier for them to build on that segment and expand it by bringing their smartphone line seamlessly along side of their business productivity solutions. IF HP can make that connection, Apple and Android will be the ones trying to play catch up. Let’s see either of them develop and grow business productivity solutions to keep up with HP.

yes, market share attracts dev's. So we are both disagreeing with rubenstein when he said a variety of devices will attract devs.

hp has ties with companies with computers and printers only, not phones persay (most of which is bb). Businesses are already trying iphone, so yes, android, ios, and webos are mostly on par when it comes to enterprise. Enterprises are experimenting, but where hp supplies computers, the other two all ready has mind share, which still gives them the edge in enterprise.

[morrison0880]

Yes I think it can be done because I've seen other electronics companies do it. In 15 years of selling high-end electronics, I've seen several companies do just that in emerging markets. HK, Nak, MacIntosh are just a few. I understand that you have an opinion and are passionate about it... but not everyone will agree. I think the market is fickle and people have short attention spans. Experiences and views will differ... I don't think it would be in HP's best interest to wait past CES - especially since Sprint went EOL with the Pre. But, (for the sake of argument forgetting MS just brought out a phone) if Microsoft had waited until next year to introduce a new phone - if it was an amazing piece of hardware, they would have still gotten huge sales. In a year, someone could tweak the heck out of Meego and introduce it. If it had amazing hardware and the OS was good, they'd pull a section of the pie. The consumer market is only a very small fraction of HP's focus and market. They are an enterprise company first and foremost and have the ability to use that muscle to be able to drive the consumer side of things no matter the market. Yeah.. you don't agree... but that's a forum.

Microsoft is a huge company that is a vital part of nearly every business on the planet in the most important aspect; software. I can't begin to think of a company that doesn't use a version of windows. Microsoft Office is so huge that it's taken for granted that it is the document viewing/editing platform of choice. Having Office on a phone alone is going to draw a ton of users. Also, Windows mobile has been on phones forever, so it is a known player, even if 7 is a complete rebuild. That said, I don't think they are coming anywhere near the numbers of the iphones or Android in the consumer space. and they just introduced ten devices. TEN!
HP made...the ipaq.
Palm is a known name, but unfortunately, that name is more associated with past success, present failure, than anything else. If they aren't able to capitalize on the burgeoning smartphone market now, they do risk being overshadowed, leaving them a fringe player.
I truly think that a pad is HPalm's best, if not their only, hope. The tablet market is WIDE open, with the ipad nearly unopposed. Create a successful competitor aimed squarely at the consumer (the market that apple rightfully covets), and then bring them over to the smartphone platform. At this point in the game, I think that's the best strategy they could employ.

All that being said, I just hope they are successful enough to justify keeping webOS on a phone that works for me. In the end, I'm selfish and I don't want my webOS to go away.