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The Motorolla Droid was released on 10/17/09. We're not even a year out from the original device and they have since released the Droid 2 and the Droid X. The Palm Pre was released 6/6/09 and we're still waiting on a true 2nd generation WebOS device.
Settle down Beavis... ;)
and in that time frame android went from a new technology to outselling the iPhone...
and in that time frame, Palm was sold & acquired by HP. Like it or not, many things have changed within the infrastructure at Palm. We will have to jump ship or wait. Sad for us but it now truly is a hurry up and wait game.
[QUOTE=Cantaffordit;2676121]and in that time frame android went from a new technology to outselling the iPhone...[/QUOTE]
that's not true, android as an OS took it's time getting to the point where it outsold the iphone.
the G1 was realeased Oct 22, 2008. The Droid wasn't released until July 2009. Android over took iphone aug 5, 2010. Iphone was release july 2007.
so android was on the shelf along side the iphone for almost 2 years, and it took a countless amount of carriers, manufacturers, and SKU's to over take iphone sales. That's not really that impressive...
When you consider that Android was a brand new OS (even though the phones themselves wer/are built by experienced handset makers), it still seems insane that Palm, a maker of the first, and best smartphones in the US couldn't compete.
And that applies to Apple too. Palm had a seven year head start on all of them.
but Android was not growing exponentially until the MotoDroid took off and became a best seller. That was the turning point, and was just a few months before the exclusive with Sprint was ended by the Verizon launch. If the pre had come out on VZW a few months earlier, and been marketed properly it might have had a chance.
I know there's been a lot of change at Palm, but the market moves fast. I don't know if WebOS can survive if they wait until sometime next year to release a new device. RIM is firmly established and nobody's moving them. Apple's Apple. Android is growing at an incredible rate...heck, Motorolla alone has released 3 Android devices in less than a year. If they keep waiting much longer, there simply won't be room.
Any chance HP/Palm would license out WebOS to other cell phone makers? This would get WebOS on more devices and in more users' hands...faster. That should lead to more interest from app developers. This could really push WebOS up the ladder some in terms of market share. I'd still want a Palm device, but maybe this could at least contribute to the survival of WebOS.
hard to get interest in licensing when android is free. HP is more likely to do the end-to-end solution like Apple and RIM
marketing marketing marketing...
[QUOTE=Cantaffordit;2676229]but Android was not growing exponentially until the MotoDroid took off and became a best seller. That was the turning point, and was just a few months before the exclusive with Sprint was ended by the Verizon launch. If the pre had come out on VZW a few months earlier, and been marketed properly it might have had a chance.[/QUOTE]
your cancelling you're own point. it took android over a year to get the software and hardware it took to compete with iphone. why would you think anything different from palm?
also note that android had the benefit of numerous manufacturers who put their necks out there releasing mediocre device after mediocre device, until they finally got it right a year later. palm doesnt have that luxury. they have to get it right this time.
[QUOTE=finngirl;2676218]When you consider that Android was a brand new OS (even though the phones themselves wer/are built by experienced handset makers), it still seems insane that Palm, a maker of the first, and best smartphones in the US couldn't compete.
And that applies to Apple too. Palm had a seven year head start on all of them.[/QUOTE]
palm has been around for a while, true, but webOS is newer than android, and they were cash-strapped after sales of palmOS handsets and palms mindshare fell off the earth. to expect them to come out the gate an compete side-by-side with the two biggest names in tech is a little ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Mhunterjr;2676377]your cancelling you're own point. it took android over a year to get the software and hardware it took to compete with iphone. why would you think anything different from palm?
also note that android had the benefit of numerous manufacturers who put their necks out there releasing mediocre device after mediocre device, until they finally got it right a year later. palm doesnt have that luxury. they have to get it right this time.[/QUOTE]
my point was that android saw new devices every few months until they hit a winner. Palm stayed with the same hardware and the market had changed from RIM/Apple to RIM/Apple/Android before the Verizon launch.
Had they launched on VZW with a Pre DOES blitz before the MotoDroid, the world might be different now. that's all.
[QUOTE=Mhunterjr;2676395]palm has been around for a while, true, but webOS is newer than android, and they were cash-strapped after sales of palmOS handsets and palms mindshare fell off the earth. to expect them to come out the gate an compete side-by-side with the two biggest names in tech is a little ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
soon HPalm has to compete with three, Microsoft. Remember Microsoft was in smartphone business for long time too. Tey admit they made mistake and they are coming out real strong. I'll bet Microsoft will have more market share than WebOS with 6 months.
Forgive me for de-evolving into speculating, but I think HPalm is definately on it, but I kinda think they know they've blown it with this generation of mobile phones and their users, so they are thinking much longer term and much more strategically then around a single upgraded Pre2. Maybe they might put out an intermediate stop-gap phone, but it certainly wont shake the earth.
Instead they are planning for whole new generation of technology and adopters down the road. Maybe some of them will be old Palmies, maybe not, but I don't think they are even thinking in terms of customer loyalty that way. They are entranced with the idea of creating a dazzling new mobile paradigm (I can almost see the marketing guys in the slick suits at the end of the board room table..using that term.. "paradigm") They've decided to re-trench and re-think the whole way their mobile gets done. Look at Apple.. now it's not just iPhone; it's iPhone+iPad+iTouch. Mobile technology is now part of a much bigger picture that involves a range of portables and accesories and a "eco system". HP needs to leap frog to that level and then offer something special beyond it. The bad part: That's just going to take time to do.
Think about it, it takes lots of time and planning to steer a corporate tanker the size of HP. They are going to have to work with cutting edge manfactures to put out stunning new hardware AND make it with lots of quality control AND get developers on board to make killer apps AND put out a brilliant, massive marketing campaign AND make all the overtures to get in bed with the big carriers AND set up their distribution networks to handle supply demands AND get all their own corporate structures to react and coordinate like a well oiled machine for it all.
Phew, makes me hope that the best thing to come out of it, is that by the time Gen2 comes around Droid X and Droid 2 will be yesterdays news.
/gets off his soap box and slinks away
the good news is that 90% of the smartphone market hasn't been tapped yet. plenty of room for growth.
[QUOTE=Cantaffordit;2676467]the good news is that 90% of the smartphone market hasn't been tapped yet. plenty of room for growth.[/QUOTE]
Not all 90% of people need smartphone. I have 6 phone lines in my family plan, only 2 got smartphone and other 4 will never ever need any smartphone.
And palm is still selling their two mediocre devices. So you're right. They need to hit the nail on the head for their 3rd device. Not seeing any next gen hardware yet makes the decision so easy for sprint users to get an epic or evo. 1yr from now will probably be a safe bet for a new Palm phone. The downside would be they get comfy with android and don't give palm a chance. I'm still game to try a 2.0 2nd gen device, but only if the hardware wows me. Give me Marvell's new triple core 1.5ghz processor and we're in business.
[QUOTE=Mhunterjr;2676377]
also note that android had the benefit of numerous manufacturers who put their necks out there releasing mediocre device after mediocre device, until they finally got it right a year later. palm doesnt have that luxury. they have to get it right this time.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=passlogix;2676505]Not all 90% of people need smartphone. I have 6 phone lines in my family plan, only 2 got smartphone andz other 4 will never ever need any smartphone.[/QUOTE]
that statistic is saying that of those that will buy a smartphone (the market) 90% of them have not yet purchased one.
I read it somewhere, probably mashable. I think it described projected smartphone growth through 2014 worldwide.
the point is that we are still in the 'early adopter phase' for fans of the book 'crossing the chasm'... So there is still time to win a seat at the grownup's table.
you will never see as many palm devices as those that use android, just not gonna happen.... im still happy with my sprint pre, so i could care the less when a new phone is going to arrive....
[QUOTE=Cantaffordit;2676602]that statistic is saying that of those that will buy a smartphone (the market) 90% of them have not yet purchased one.
I read it somewhere, probably mashable. I think it described projected smartphone growth through 2014 worldwide.
the point is that we are still in the 'early adopter phase' for fans of the book 'crossing the chasm'... So there is still time to win a seat at the grownup's table.[/QUOTE]
Ok, this is early adopter phase, like you said. But Google is releasing and improving their Android OS all the time, 2.2 and it's keep improving. Apple is improving their iOS all the time, now it's 4.0. And they are still making good devices, 4th generation. RIM is re-inventing themselve. And Microsoft is trying to retake the smartphone market. Let's see what HP is doing right now. yeah, create a tablet with windows7 and create printer with android screen, and NO WORD ON NEW PALM!!!! I have to question HP, how much they are commited to WebOS, and I feel very strongly about the palm purchase was all about the copyright and nothing else. HP is not about to put hundred of million dollar where they have no chance to win, they are just too far behind.
[QUOTE=passlogix;2676661]
....
, and I feel very strongly about the palm purchase was all about the copyright and nothing else. [/QUOTE]
Well you are not listening to what HP has to say about it then.
[QUOTE=passlogix;2676661]
HP is not about to put hundred of million dollar where they have no chance to win, they are just too far behind.[/QUOTE]
They don't need to [I]win[/I] to make a nice profit for shareholders in the smartphone sector, and that's what it's all about.
That's great and wonderful for you, but it doesn't mean you speak for the masses. webOS loyalists are not as widespread as PalmOS loyalists once were. Many have jumped ship to android and haven't looked back. The longer they go with no news, the more that will jump ship.
[QUOTE=hatchettjack;2676647]you will never see as many palm devices as those that use android, just not gonna happen.... im still happy with my sprint pre, so i could care the less when a new phone is going to arrive....[/QUOTE]
Palm Pre June 6, 2009
Palm Pixi November 15, 2009 NEW DEVICE
Palm Pre Plus January 25, 2010 UPGRADED DEVICE (Similar to the little updates on the iphone)
Palm Pixi Plus January 25, 2010 UPGRADED DEVICE
Then also releases on At&t. All this in the US alone and from one company, Palm. You can't stop the several companies that churn out Android OS devices from causing a frequent flood. Also keep in mind Palm has been churning out some regular updates and enhancements and pretty much let's you do what you want with the phone without "rooting" or feeling criminal. To say they haven't released a phone since the Sprint Pre isn't true. The Pre Plus regardless that it was on another carrier was just like the little updates Apple has done to the iphone that usually takes a year. Considering the new OS, the market, and the merger I think they are doing a decent job. Had they got out of the gate a little sooner and had advertising to help give them a trendy feel like Apple and Android has going it would be a different game. It just seems some are rather hard on Palm.
just wanted to chime in.
thank you ian, for a different and refreshing perspective.
I would add that webOS devices are on THREE US carriers. That means that somewhere along this bumpy ride of palm's, the carriers at some point wanted to add webOS to their portfolio. Palm was able to sell it to sprint, vzw, and att. That's saying alot.
you see, palm, or hpalm now, will never be the market leader, nor do they have to. They just need to be present. How many tv companies and car brands exist? Do we need more OS's besides ios, rim, android and MS? Well, why not. It's all a matter about having choice.
where hp and palm are making a mistake is taking so long to bring a new product to the market, available on all carriers, so that when one walks into a carrier store they can review each device and then decide which one they want to go home with. Us tech nerds usually know what we want, but other not so tech savvy just want the newest and coolest looking device, that comes at a reasonable price. I believe this is why the centro was such a hit device, no matter what you thought of it. It came in all different colors, was unique, and cheap, and on multiple carriers.
the way it stands now, when a customer is looking for a new smartphone or is a first time smartphone buyer, few are looking at the pres and pixis because they are older, and relatively bland and cheap looking compared to the iphone, blackberries, and most android phones. They don't know how good webOS is.
I think hp needs to release whatever the C40 was or whatever was on palm's roadmap before the merger as soon as possible, with webOS 2.0, so long as the specs are competitive with other devices, to increase the visibilty of webOS devices. Then when they are ready, they can release a top notch, ahead of the curve device and let others
play catch up. I hear alot of nonsense that a new device can't be released until the carriers sell off their current stock. All other companies do it, and now hp, with their larger "scale" and deeper pockets can certainly afford to do so.
but not releasing anything for another 3-6 months, is a big mistake.
ian....hogwash
HTC Hero -> Evo
HTC Eris -> Incredible
Samsung Moment -> Epic
All successors available on their respective carrier. All three are MAJOR upgrades to their predecessors. All three are just a different breed altogether, not to mention having a major OS upgrade from 1.5 to 2.1 and ultimately 2.2.
Plus versions are meaningless to Sprint owners and if anything are just a big ** to them. The ones that took the plunge first with the original crap are the ones that get screwed the most. If Palm had half a brain they would've ceased all production of the regular versions the minute they started production on the Plus versions. It's not like they were selling a ton and worried they would sell through before exclusives were up. Not to mention Sprint was maintaining much higher price points for the original crap when you could do BOGO at Verizon for the Plus versions. And you can leave the plan costs out of it.
Hard on Palm? They were hard on their customers, their early adopters. They cut corners and came out with sub par hardware. They treated the Pixi like a second class smartphone. Slower processor, less ram, no wifi, and that screen could've easily been bigger, yet they aimed for the lowest common smartphone denominator. The Plus versions were what the originals should have been in the first place.
And I still keep my Pre around even though I'm pretty much committed to Android for now since I've been buying apps. I still can't edit docs on the Pre, and after doing it on a nice 4" screen, why would I want to go back to the Pre's tiny screen?
crogs,
It's always easy to say when something new comes out this is how it should have been. Yes like I said the phone manufactures will churn out new phones and flood the market faster than palm but palm doesn't just manufacture them and throw someone else s OS on them. Android is made up of a flood of manufactures and carriers, like WM. Apple doesn't even have a new iphone every 4 months either.
Just remember all the other phone manufacture's and OS's aren't perfection either. The grass is just always greener for some. :rolleyes:
no, its easy to tell in QC when you get samples from the manufacturer. Designers and engineers approve specs. They get samples. They do initial testing before full production runs are made. They've made hardware for 10 years and come up short with the Pre. They then misunderstand the market for the Pixi when they should've given it equal footing to the Pre and not the runt of the litter.
4 months? is that some arbitrary number pulled from somewhere to try and make a point? Personally, who cares about the iphone? They're always going to have their users regardless of what the competition does. Palm's biggest issue is Android. And to throw out some dates...(rounded up to the nearest month)
HTC Hero: 10/11/09
HTC Evo: 6/04/10
8 months
Samsung Moment: 11/01/09
Samsung Epic: 08/31/10
10 months
HTC Eris: 11/05/09
HTC Incredible: 04/29/10
6 months
All less than a year. All leaked, talked about and/or confirmed about a month or more before release.
The grass is never greener, it's just a different shade of green, no better, no worse.Well, in Palm's case, it's worse because they're behind the 8 ball. Android and Windows Phone 7 will have handsets from multiple manufacturers on multiple carriers. You have many on Sprint that are now out of contract with their original Pre, and the guys I know at my local store along with my business rep have said many have migrated to Android. They just continue to lose what little market share they had. By the time they get a new phone out running 2.0, Android will be on 3.0 with successors to the likes of the Evo, Incredible, Epic, DroidX and possibly Droid2. And 3.0 is suppose to be a major GUI overhaul. WP7 will probably have a few updates under its belt and with nice media integration and standalone media player functionality will have a nice advantage over webOS.
So you can wear the rose colored glasses for as long as you like. I hear they enhance greens :)
[QUOTE=crogs571;2676984]
The grass is never greener, it's just a different shade of green, no better, no worse.Well, in Palm's case, it's worse [/QUOTE]
Okay we get it, you like Android. :hmm:
i don't know why i'm still suprised that people just don't seem to get the concept that palm didn't have the money to do better when they were still independant.
and that a lot of things go on when a company gets bought that can put a big hold on what they're up to. or, that maybe how that HP owns them, that they are focusing more on the future (maybe even thinking of the devices that current 3rd graders will be using in 7 years) instead of rushing something out just to stay "current" and to keep the user base they already have.
don't get me wrong. i want a wicked fast phone with a four inch screen running 2.0 like, yesterday. or the week before. but i can understand why things are working out as they are.
my thoughts: in HP's mind, there is no current user base to keep. but, they do have an amazing mobile OS, that as long as they take time to put out great hardware to run it. could easily be 25% plus of the mobile market in 5-10 years.
[quote=YankBoy;2676079]The Motorola Droid was released on 10/17/09. We're not even a year out from the original device and they have since released the Droid 2 and the Droid X...[/quote]It is not just that there are new Androids every few weeks. It is that each has a planned shelf-life of about 9 months. We have already seen that Verizon will pull the [URL="http://forums.precentral.net/cross-platform-chat/258525-verizon-motorola-droid-x-vs-palm-pre.html"][COLOR=blue]Droid X[/COLOR][/URL] and [URL="http://reviews.cnet.com/motorola-droid-2-review"][COLOR=blue]Droid2[/COLOR][/URL] from their shelves 3/31/11. By then Streaming HD will be driving the market and that takes LTE or 4G and a fast processors.
The Droid X and Droid2 at 1 GHz and 16 GB will be too far out of date to still carry. We heard about the coming LTE 1.2, 1.5, and 2 GHz phones before the "old" phones could even hit the market.
The Droid X and Droid2 are not obsolete. They still do what you bought them to do. It's just that Motorola, HTC, LG, and Samsung are each coming out with up to a dozen new Android phones now every 12 months, each one better than the last.
Android and Apple are getting consumers to think of phones like shoes you replace every year. They still work but you just want the bigger, better phone. Just like shoes and printers and laptops, there are new phones in every size and style every few months. That sells a lot of phones but more importantly rebinds customers to their carrier for another two years every upgrade.
The annual upgrade model is working. In May there were 100,000 new Androids activated a day. In June it was 160,000 a day. In July is was 200,000 a day. Every 11 days, more Androids are delivered than all the Pre's ever made. They are at a production rate of 70 million Androids a year and it is no where near enough.
HP will need to offer families of smartphones for the Low, Mid, and High end markets. Android is just now waking up to the exploding pre-paid market. Over two years the [URL="http://forums.precentral.net/showthread.phop?p=2650558"][COLOR=blue]Cricket Zio Android costs $1,540.00[/COLOR][/URL]. I hope that HP sees that too.
The sad part is that at one time Palm was the one who had a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palm_OS_Devices"][COLOR=blue]dozen companies developing products for Palm OS[/COLOR][/URL].
- Craig
I don't think anyone fails to realize their lackluster rebirth and situation with webOS. But the market is what it is. It's moving quick. Hardware is just making major strides every six months practically. Android as an OS is the same way. MS will have WP7 phones shipping soon. iOS4 is what it's always been. If it hits Verizon, they'll have their hands full without Palm.
Just because a product is good, doesn't guarantee it success.
People think we're hating on Palm when we're just seeing the situation and the uphill battle they have ahead of them. Has nothing to do with like or dislike.
[QUOTE=milominderbinder;2677549]
The sad part is that at one time Palm was the one who had a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palm_OS_Devices"][COLOR=blue]dozen companies developing products for Palm OS[/COLOR][/URL].
- Craig[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=crogs571;2677579]People think we're hating on Palm when we're just seeing the situation and the uphill battle they have ahead of them. Has nothing to do with like or dislike.[/QUOTE]
I would think a combination of Palm's extensive phone savvy and HP's extensive computer savvy would result in a killer device. Hopefully they are working around the clock. Would hate to see the Pre/WebOS brand die off.
I don't think anyone realizes, but we haven't heard anything about a new device. Just that we can expect some new WebOS devices over the next year. We don't have a glimpse of anything coming out. That means we have at least 8 months until a new smartphone comes out. Also HP said they were going to make printers with WebOS. So these WebOS devices we can expect may just be printers! Palm has lost it. If they even think of just giving us 2.0 instead of new hardware, I'm gone. My Pre has fallen apart and I am not spending $100 through insurance for the same old Sprint Pre that I have now. I'm gone for good if we don't have anything by the end of this year, if my Pre even lasts that long. If it doesn't, I'm gone earlier than that.
[QUOTE=UntidyGuy;2677626]I don't know why but I'm still surprised that some people think that this actually matters to anyone who is looking to buy a smartphone. "PALM - 'Cause we didn't have the money to make a better phone"[/QUOTE]
it shouldn't matter to anyone who is currently looking buy a smart phone. for that matter, probably neither should saying that palm should have released something better back when they released the Pre.
i'm just saying people don't seem to get that they did what they could. it seems like a lot of folks are saying they messed up by not releasing something along the lines of an iPhone back in june '09. while, that really was ahuge mess up and did screw them over, they couldn't really afford any options. so Palm was broke, we got crap hardware, and now we're where we are now.
it really doesn't matter anymore, and maybe i should not have bothered to mention it, since talking about things that are so old and done with that it's kind of moot is what caused me to comment in the first place. i just hope all this silence is because they are about to blow our minds.
[QUOTE=Cantaffordit;2676121]and in that time frame android went from a new technology to outselling the iPhone...[/QUOTE]
The major difference is, the iOS only runs one 1 device. Android runs on probably a hundred. Not a fair comparison. The other difference being that the first successful android device being the MotoDroid, it was actually marketed effectively. Droid commercials made me want to buy one, Pre commercials made me say ***.
[QUOTE=sputnik767;2677842]The major difference is, the iOS only runs one 1 device. Android runs on probably a hundred. Not a fair comparison. The other difference being that the first successful android device being the MotoDroid, it was actually marketed effectively. Droid commercials made me want to buy one, Pre commercials made me say ***.[/QUOTE]
"Not fair"...i hear this all the time.
people. there are not "rules" in the smartphone race as to how u get marketshare. you pick a business strategy, and you go with it. If you choose one OS on 1 device....or multiple versions on multiple devices.....so what? its a business plan. Releasing multiple devices isnt "cheating"....Apple couldve just as easily released 10 different versions on the iphone, released it to HTC and all the other makers and maybe had the same affect as android.
the point is, that they didnt. so when you say android has an "unfair advantage", that isnt necessarily true.
With Hp being probably one of the biggest technologies companies, and just buying Palm, something tells me that their purchase was for a reason and within that huge company that is only growing, they probably have a guy or two working on it