[GMoney749]

I do find it telling that some of the developer around you were "unable to install filecoaster." Doesn't sound like a very "average Joe" process to me.

But since you don't own the device and haven't actually tried it, you wouldn't really know, would you?

The one-ear parrot.

[ADGrant]

I think you're mixing up running homebrew apps with ADGrant's comment on developing homebrew apps. How many "I've-never-programmed-before-but-wow-this-WebOS-stuff-is-so-easy-to-write-programs-for" homebrew developers do you think there are? I'm guessing none.

I do find it telling that some of the developer around you were "unable to install filecoaster." Doesn't sound like a very "average Joe" process to me.

Yes, he completely didn't get the point of my post. That said, any 'developer' who can't install filecoaster on a Pre may need to find another profession.

[gbp]

I think you're mixing up running homebrew apps with ADGrant's comment on developing homebrew apps. How many "I've-never-programmed-before-but-wow-this-WebOS-stuff-is-so-easy-to-write-programs-for" homebrew developers do you think there are? I'm guessing none.

I do find it telling that some of the developer around you were "unable to install filecoaster." Doesn't sound like a very "average Joe" process to me.

Yup i did mix it up , writing for WebOS has nothing to do with installing homebrew.

Agree , Writing apps on webos is done by a seasoned web programmer on UNIX/ Linux not a newbie who picked the WebOS book yesterday.

Installing file coaster requires turning on the devmode. Unfortunately folks around were born in Microsoft/Windows ERA. They donot understand UNIX.
Hence the concept of tuning on devmode is alien , however they understand the ".cab" file installation on WinMo.

[gbp]

Yes, he completely didn't get the point of my post. That said, any 'developer' who can't install filecoaster on a Pre may need to find another profession.

REALLY , that's like telling a JAVA developer to stop coding because he can't hack windows registry.

[mrloserpunk]

I think you're mixing up running homebrew apps with ADGrant's comment on developing homebrew apps. How many "I've-never-programmed-before-but-wow-this-WebOS-stuff-is-so-easy-to-write-programs-for" homebrew developers do you think there are? I'm guessing none.

I do find it telling that some of the developer around you were "unable to install filecoaster." Doesn't sound like a very "average Joe" process to me.

I've never hacked or developed anything before. I got filecoaster on in a jiffy, also I've developed my own theme and icons, I've even enlarged my clock and changed the carrier string...I've played around with adding a gps script to track it. I have also walked several people through it using IM's and PM's. This is not difficult. Anyone can do it. And I love that about my PRE.

[hparsons]

I've never hacked or developed anything before. I got filecoaster on in a jiffy, also I've developed my own theme and icons, I've even enlarged my clock and changed the carrier string...I've played around with adding a gps script to track it. I have also walked several people through it using IM's and PM's. This is not difficult. Anyone can do it. And I love that about my PRE.

Mr Average Joe Lovin' His Pre - meet the We Don't Like the Pre, but Love Knocking it gang...

[zullnero]

Who's making the Pre - Palm or its users?

Hopefully, both.

Apple went through the same thing early on. The users were making all the apps with a lot of unofficial hacks.

I can't fault Palm for putting their web store through some QA paces. The thing doesn't just sell you apps, it updates them too. Also, Palm isn't Microsoft or Apple big. It's been around, but it's not the same size as the big boys. They didn't have a massive web team that could lend 10 developers to knock something together in a couple weeks like Microsoft can. They have to keep ramping up and hiring when they have the budget to do so like most smaller tech companies.

That said, I really, really hope this process stays nice and open. You have a pretty fairly open OS where you have options. I can only hope that it doesn't end up like iPhone, because if there was one huge point that caused me, as a developer, to stop developing iPhone apps, it was Apple and it's closed process. If that's all I have to develop for, then I'll do it, but as soon as someone offers an open solution, I'm all about that.

Palm, though, has a history of doing things this way. If you don't like it, well, I see you're new to this thing. In the old days, we had hackmaster hacks, and Palm themselves were fine with that. They wanted the users to be creative. First PalmOS app I ever wrote, I asked on the message board for some help because I kind of wanted to use memo as a repository for log files, and one of the OS Engineers (I think it was Ryan Robertson, though I'm a little hazy) replied to me immediately and encouraged me to do it. That's just how they are. That's how the culture works. If having freedom is too weird for you, climb back into your Apple bubble.

Now if only I had some more spare time after my day job, I could get the 3 different projects that I really want to do for the Pre finished.

[Kupe]

I've never hacked or developed anything before.I got filecoaster on in a jiffy, also I've developed my own theme and icons, I've even enlarged my clock and changed the carrier string...I've played around with adding a gps script to track it. I have also walked several people through it using IM's and PM's. This is not difficult. Anyone can do it. And I love that about my PRE.

I'm not sure what all this has to do with the Pre - it seems to have everything to do with you. I guess I would have to ask, "Why do you hack the Pre?" or "Why have you never hacked anything else?" The answer could be as simple as, "Because you never had to hack other devices to get them to do what they were supposed to do." Trust me, the WM, PalmOS, BlackberryOS, iPhone, and Android phones out there are just as easy to hack as the Pre.

NOTE: I didn't try to slip the word "developed" in my response like you did in your post. I did this only because the things you list that you've done to your Pre are hacks, not development. Development on all those devices, including the Pre, is not for the "average Joes" out there.

[ADGrant]

There's multiple issues involved here, I'll touch on a couple. These are all "average Joe" type things:

• Accessibility - Palm not only allows the phone to be easily accessed, they encouraged it by creating the tools to do so, then freely disributing them.
• Development - The iPhone and the PalmOS devices (and I'm sure most other phones) require an SDK to really be able to produce software. They're not (typically) free downloads like they are for the Pre. In addition, the "average Joe" doesn't even have to have the SDK on the Pre to jump into it.

Finally, surely you know that the ability to read someone else's code has nothing to do with whether or not it's "open source", which has to do with licensing, not the ability (or lack of same) to see the source.

The Android development tools are also freely distributed. They are also (on the whole) much better tools. The debugger works like any other modern debugger instead of something from the 1980s.

As for opensource, on most platforms if a project is not opensource, developers will not make the source code available. Therefore you can typically only read source code from opensource applications. On the Pre this is of course not that case. All the Javascript is readable and can easily be copied. Many software developers would consider this a disadvantage.

[hparsons]

The Android development tools are also freely distributed. They are also (on the whole) much better tools. The debugger works like any other modern debugger instead of something from the 1980s.

And yet, it hasn't quite caught on. Betamax proved a long time ago that it's not only superior technology that grabs the golden ring.

The point was, and is, that the Pre's platform is encouraging folks to in a way we haven't seen before.

As for opensource, on most platforms if a project is not opensource, developers will not make the source code available. Therefore you can typically only read source code from opensource applications. On the Pre this is of course not that case. All the Javascript is readable and can easily be copied. Many software developers would consider this a disadvantage.

Again though, open source is a licensing issue, not a readability issue. Web sites have, for years, had their code easily readable, but were still copyrighted. The JavaScript, the images, even distributed PHP that was not obfuscated was easily read. It was not open source though.

I agree that the ability to read the source is going to scare off some programmers. Easily pirated software has always had that problem. However, some developers not only got by, but thrived in environments where their work could be stolen, if one chose to do so. I suspect we'll see a good group of developers for the Pre that aren't afraid of it.

I also suspect we'll eventually see something for WebOS that's similar to what IonCube did for PHP developers, that will run server-side (the Pre is, for all practical purposes, a server) to decrpty obfuscated code.

[mrloserpunk]

I'm not sure what all this has to do with the Pre - it seems to have everything to do with you. I guess I would have to ask, "Why do you hack the Pre?" or "Why have you never hacked anything else?" The answer could be as simple as, "Because you never had to hack other devices to get them to do what they were supposed to do." Trust me, the WM, PalmOS, BlackberryOS, iPhone, and Android phones out there are just as easy to hack as the Pre.

NOTE: I didn't try to slip the word "developed" in my response like you did in your post. I did this only because the things you list that you've done to your Pre are hacks, not development. Development on all those devices, including the Pre, is not for the "average Joes" out there.

Why did i do it? Because I really enjoy my Pre and wanted to play with it. Maybe I was bored, or maybe I saw others doing it...Yeah, I can promise that the iphone does not have the theme I made for my pre...so maybe it's cause its fun customizing it.....yeah I guess I don't really "develop" but I just might. Im working on reading through the SDK documentation now...wish they wrote it in english

[hparsons]

.....yeah I guess I don't really "develop" but I just might.

Trust me, there was a time when "real developers" would have laughed at the notion that people working on HTML, CSS, and Javascript called themselves "developers".

Im working on reading through the SDK documentation now...wish they wrote it in english

What, you don't read geek? Keep at it. An fired up curiosity over a "gadget" is what got many people into the IT industry.

[ADGrant]

REALLY , that's like telling a JAVA developer to stop coding because he can't hack windows registry.

Hacking windows registry:

1) run cmd.exe
2) type regedit
3) change registry entries.

What's hard about that.

Installing file coaster.

1) Type the code into your Pre.
2) Plug the pre into your computer
3) download, install and run the WebOS installer
4) download filecoaster and install it with the WebOS installer.

Neither seems that hard. Both are much easier than writing a new app from scratch or debugging someone else's. Good software develpers can work things out. I am not suggesting that a Java programmer should be able to knock out a WebOS app, but he/she should at least be able to install it. The above process does not require any Unix skills.

[ADGrant]

Palm, though, has a history of doing things this way. If you don't like it, well, I see you're new to this thing. In the old days, we had hackmaster hacks, and Palm themselves were fine with that. They wanted the users to be creative. First PalmOS app I ever wrote, I asked on the message board for some help because I kind of wanted to use memo as a repository for log files, and one of the OS Engineers (I think it was Ryan Robertson, though I'm a little hazy) replied to me immediately and encouraged me to do it. That's just how they are. That's how the culture works. If having freedom is too weird for you, climb back into your Apple bubble.

It should be noted though that Palm is now run by ex-Apple employees.

[Jonathan I Ezor#IM]

The Android development tools are also freely distributed. They are also (on the whole) much better tools. The debugger works like any other modern debugger instead of something from the 1980s.

As for opensource, on most platforms if a project is not opensource, developers will not make the source code available. Therefore you can typically only read source code from opensource applications. On the Pre this is of course not that case. All the Javascript is readable and can easily be copied. Many software developers would consider this a disadvantage.

Pre apps are not distributed as Javascript. They are ipk packages, compiled *from* Java, Javascript, HTML and CSS-based resources, and are not easily readable although they can be extracted (and obfuscated too). Legally, if developers incorporate open source code, or choose to license their own wholly original code as open source, they are obligated by the license to provide a copy of the source code to users, but only then. Otherwise, the code is legally protected even if it's physically accessible. Palm's in the same boat, which is why to the extent it has used open source elements in the WebOS, it provides the source code to them. {ProfJonathan}

[ADGrant]

Pre apps are not distributed as Javascript. They are ipk packages, compiled *from* Java, Javascript, HTML and CSS-based resources, and are not easily readable although they can be extracted (and obfuscated too). Legally, if developers incorporate open source code, or choose to license their own wholly original code as open source, they are obligated by the license to provide a copy of the source code to users, but only then. Otherwise, the code is legally protected even if it's physically accessible.

The ipk packaging isn't compiling anything. It appears to be just dumping it in some sort of zip file. There is no Java code in WebOS apps and HTML & Javascript are not compiled. The code is also easily browsed by logging into an emulator instance (or actual pre) with an ssh client.

I am aware of the legal protections but people's actions are not always legal.

[mrloserpunk]

Trust me, there was a time when "real developers" would have laughed at the notion that people working on HTML, CSS, and Javascript called themselves "developers".

What, you don't read geek? Keep at it. An fired up curiosity over a "gadget" is what got many people into the IT industry.

@ Hparsons It is kinda greek but I'll make do...

@ ADGrant What is really confusing though is, why do you post here? It just seems that you are pretty bent on what it can't do as opposed to what it can do or will be able too.... I just don't see what your getting out of it, besides attacks and negative comments torward yourself.....

Its obvious you know alot about the device, but are you here to "warn people" or something? I just don't get what the draw is to a forum for a device you dont seem to like is...I'm not saying you can't be here or anything like that...just it seems outta place is all.... anyhoots thats my mid thread rant...please continue!

[hparsons]

It is kinda greek but I'll make do...what is really confusing though is, why do you post here? It just seems that you are pretty bent on what it can't do as opposed to what it can do or will be able too.... I just don't see what your getting out of it, besides attacks and negative comments torward yourself.....

Its obvious you know alot about the device, but are you here to "warn people" or something? I just don't get what the draw is to a forum for a device you dont seem to like is...I'm not saying you can't be here or anything like that...just it seems outta place is all.... anyhoots thats my mid thread rant...please continue!

Hmmmm, I think you got me mixed up with the other guy. My post was tongue in cheek, and I really do kinda like the Pre.... Kinda...

[Really mobile]

Hmmmm, I think you got me mixed up with the other guy. My post was tongue in cheek, and I really do kinda like the Pre.... Kinda...

Yep that was interesting....one Pre fanboy admonishing another Pre fanboy :-)

definitely a mistake...

[hparsons]

Yep that was interesting....one Pre fanboy admonishing another Pre fanboy :-)

definitely a mistake...

Exactly what makes one a "fanboy"? Going to a site talking about a device that's dedicated for that device? Or is it going to a site and talking against that device...
Got a mirror handy?

(Actually, I think he just glossed over my witty sarcasm, it's been known to happen...)