[GMoney749]

GMoney,

Have you considered that this isn't really about one person's likes or dislikes, but about raising the general quality of the device so that it's on par with other devices and OSes on the market THEN seeing sales reflect that THEN having Palm continue to exist THEN all of us enjoying plenty of more official apps and future updates? That some of us like myself and Cardfan who were staunch defenders of the device previously talk extensively about its flaws now because we want to highlight them, see them fixed, and see Palm succeed?

I know people get personally attached their electronics, especially in the smartphone wars, but look objectively as you can at what's going on right now.

Things aren't working as well as hoped. Sprint and Palm have been silent about sales. The SDK was late. Official apps are late. Sprint is dropping no less than three major new touchscreen smartphones in the next 60 days, and that's the only US carrier that has Pre for at least the next 120 days. If things continue at this pace, it's over. Palm runs out of money while ironically being overvalued in the stock market to the point of being a less-than-ideal acquisition target.

Only Palm can turn it around with the moves they make in the next month or two. And if said moves don't address some of what you guys consider "whining", it's a wrap. We don't want that, and neither do you. But glossing over problems with Palm and the device, and patiently waiting for significant changes isn't going to help.

I totally agree. But unrealistic expectations aren't going to make it happen, no matter how loud you shout. They can't make it do everything that every other phone does right now. If that's the requirement, its already over.

I'm pretty sure they're working on it.

[Reeves]

I totally agree. But unrealistic expectations aren't going to make it happen, no matter how loud you shout. They can't make it do everything that every other phone does right now. If that's the requirement, its already over.

I'm pretty sure they're working on it.

This is what's frustrating: Nobody is asking them to do everything every other phone does. In fact, NO device does everything that every other phone does, including the iPhone.

There's actually a rational middle of criticism between "I love my Pre!!! Wheee!!! (zero) and "This device and Palm suck so bad, and will never stop sucking until the Pre turns into an iPhone, steals all of Apple's apps, then transforms into Devastator." (100)

There are many things that Palm CAN do to make the Pre more competitive, which is the LEAST they can do. The objective should be total superiority, but realistically with Palm's resources...that's not going to happen. WebOS and notifications aside, the Pre is lagging behind at least one competitor in most other areas (keyboard, build quality, phone functionality, apps, browser smoothness, media player, calendar/PIM, video, etc.). Each and every update for the next 60-120 days should be laser focused on getting on par with all of the competition in those areas (the non-hardware ones).

Now is not the time to sit back and go "Man, Palm did an awesome job with what they had to work with, and we should just sit and appreciate that!" That's signing a death warrant. Palm should be acting as if every day is one step closer to defunct status and it is do or die....because that's the situation they're in.

[bdhu2001]

Originally posted by mikah912:
Only Palm can turn it around with the moves they make in the next month or two. And if said moves don't address some of what you guys consider "whining", it's a wrap. We don't want that, and neither do you. But glossing over problems with Palm and the device, and patiently waiting for significant changes isn't going to help.

I'm not glossing over problems. I guess I just don't care enough about the stuff you guys are talking about enough to care. Most of us change phones every two - three years. If this phone lasts me two years, I'm okay. The phone is insured so if it doesn't last, I'll get a replacement.

I'm happy that I discovered Sprint's low price ( due to changing companies for the Pre). Even if the Pre ceases to exist, my cell phone bill is now $100- $150 per month less. I'm okay with that.

I hope that the WebOS platform succeeds, but I don't buy a phone based on how profitable the company is. I go with carriers and gym memberships based on that, but not the actual mobile phone manufacturer.

If the WebOS is successful, I'll be able to buy a second phone and cancel my insurance because I'll have a backup phone. Which means I'll save even more money.

Based on what I've read, almost everyone in this forum changes their phones when their contract ends or buy whatever phone they like so that they are never in contracts. That being the case, the true issues are will the phone last for two years and will there be apps that will at least make this phone as productive as the phones that we left behind to switch to this phone.

For me, the answer to those questions are yes. In fact, it had to be a yes, before I switched services. There are additional apps that I'd like the Pre to have, but not any that I need to be as productive as my Treo.

Thus, I'm satisfied and the Pre meets my current needs w/o major apps or changes. I use Classic and SplashID, between the two of them, I'm productive. I also use Evernote for editable docs.

I don't deny that other things are possible, but for me, other things aren't necessary.

[hparsons]

...
I'll repeat what I mentioned in another thread -- the mobile dev shops I work with are all frustrated with the lack of capability in the webOS. The only thing I see going strong on the Pre right now are hobby apps.

You're somehow surprised that a system that has no method to make money on apps, other than through advertising on the app, only has strength in the hobby apps? You're really surprised by that?? If so, I'd had to see the "business plan" you're working under.

There are few serious apps out there because the people working on them want to get paid.

[hparsons]

If you meant javascript why did you say Java, they are completely different. If you are going to be a pedant you should at least get your own facts straight.
...

It's that human quality in me. Sometime I even spell werds worng when I really mean to spill them rite.

However, as I said, the Pre still runs a JVM. So, guess we bothed goofed...

The major components of a browser are the HTML rendering engine and the Javascript interpreter. The MOJO framework is built on top of Webkit which is a browser engine (hence the name webkit).

And BTW I have the Pre SDK. I can't make phone class with it of course but I can experiance the wonders of synergy and WebOS software development

And if you meant the major components are the rendering engine and the Javascript interpreter, why didn't you say that instead of saying the apps "essentially run in a browser"? If you are going to be a pedant you should at least get your own facts straight.

[hparsons]

ADGrant is correct in that webKit is the underlying engine at work for apps. I am tempted to elaborate, but it's really that simple. webKit is the interpreter that runs the HTML/javascript/CSS code.

Unfortunately, that doesn't make him right, since that's not what he said. Webkit is not "essentially a browser", and that was his assertion.

WebOS is the underlying engine, along with a bunch (and a growing bunch at that) set of APIs. To say it's "essentially a browser" is not only incorrect, it's obviously meant to diminsh the capabilities of the device. It's that type of dishonest statement that begs rebuttal.

[hparsons]

...
I don't know if it's insecurity, or the need to justify your choice of a phone, or a dislike of Apple, but seriously, you guys need to get a clue. I want the webOS platform to succeed, but I can't blindly cheerlead the way things are now.

Yawn.....

Another "I know more than you even though I don't know what you know" telling others' to "get a clue".

Riiiggghhhttt. You keep using your iPhone. We clueless ones are happy where we are. And, in a matter of weeks when we are paying our money to those non-developers out there that are developing away and giving us what we're willng to pay for, we'll be sure to say hi.

[hparsons]

...
Things aren't working as well as hoped. Sprint and Palm have been silent about sales. The SDK was late. Official apps are late. Sprint is dropping no less than three major new touchscreen smartphones in the next 60 days, and that's the only US carrier that has Pre for at least the next 120 days. If things continue at this pace, it's over. Palm runs out of money while ironically being overvalued in the stock market to the point of being a less-than-ideal acquisition target.
...

How was the SDK "late"? When was it promised, when was it delivered?
Sprint and Palm have been silent about just about everything on the Pre, almost since it's announcement. Why should they have been any different with sales numbers? Simply to satisfy some web pundits that have made it clear that they are not going to be satisfied at all?

I think your concerns are overstated. But we shall see. Are you willing to put a date on their demise, so we know when it's safe to ask you "Hey, what happened wid dat??"

[gbp]

S219
Sir you seem to indicate that Palm will close the shop.your argument about the linux webkit , mojo platform doesn't have the power of a C compiler. Hence the platform sucks. And folks working on WebOS are not smarter than the iphone jailbreaking community? WE HEARD THOSE BEFORE, GRACIOUS.

I know there are half a million folks using WebOS and another couple million joining come 2010. Seriuosly are you predicting doom for PALM and WebOS ?

You seem to know more about PALM than many of the financial analysts.

[VickMackey]

Select analysts have upgraded PALM to a buy rating with a target of $25.
PALM is working on a deal with a Chinese telecom, 02 in the UK, and Bell in Canada.
Palm will get acquired long before they ever go bankrupt.
So tales of Palm's demise are greatly exaggerated.

[Aero]

yeah seriously, how would using android do anything but put palm out of buisness? palm would not be a very good handset only company...their strength is their OS

Their strength is also in having a recognizable brand.

[Aero]

The Pre has received more updates in 2 1/2 months than most Palm devices have in their entire life cycle (and other smartphons, for that matter).

Is that a good thing?

[Aero]

I said NOTHING about it going straight to voice mail. If I was, how would reducing the phone app lag help resolve that in any way whatsoever?

What?

This happens with only the phone app card open. In fact, I've never been able - under any condition or any amount of apps running - to produce a smooth scroll in the phone app.

For poops and chuckles, I just restarted my Pre. Fresh reboot. I let it come up and clicked the phone app button. FIVE seconds for the app to come up. No other apps running, and this is after a memory-clearing reboot. Flick to scroll. ONE second delay before the scroll started, and then it scrolled with stutters.

Tried going back about a week, and the blank space appeared briefly.

Actually, sometimes you DO have to press it multiple times. I've pressed it before, and the screen even did that ripple thing ON the hangup button. Nada. Sometimes, the Contacts screen is there instead, and you have to swipe your way back. That lags too.

Again, your assumption that this only occurs when we're using multiple apps is laughable. I have no GPS running. No IM. No bluetooth. Email is set to "As they arrive", which is the least CPU-intensive setting.

Stop making excuses. It's pathetic. Well, not as much as your personal insults toward non-fanboys who dare to expect their phones to work well as a dumbphone, or who dare to hold Palm to any sort of standard. But it's pretty pathetic nonetheless.

Able to replicate this problem

[Aero]

I don't know if it's insecurity, or the need to justify your choice of a phone, or a dislike of Apple, but seriously, you guys need to get a clue. I want the webOS platform to succeed, but I can't blindly cheerlead the way things are now.

I think this is very rational

[hparsons]

Is that a good thing?

Yes. I understand your implication, but the fact is that the PalmOS had its problems as well (every smartphone OS has problems). The fact that Palm is responding quickly is a good thing.

[cjdaniel]

It's funny, the 600 was going to be Palm's demise, then the 650, then the 700...
Stay on these forums long enough and there has been predictors of Palm's demise for every device, and I am not kidding, look through he archives. I think the 270 and 300 were so revolutionary we were happy with all the problems, including flip screens that broke off.

[ADGrant]

It's that human quality in me. Sometime I even spell werds worng when I really mean to spill them rite.

However, as I said, the Pre still runs a JVM. So, guess we bothed goofed...


And if you meant the major components are the rendering engine and the Javascript interpreter, why didn't you say that instead of saying the apps "essentially run in a browser"? If you are going to be a pedant you should at least get your own facts straight.

Unfiortunately by typing java instead of javascript you completely changed the meaning of your assertion. That isn't just a spelling mistake. I never asserted that WebOS didn't run a JVM, so I guess you goofed and I did not. The presence of a JVM is irrelevant.

As for my use of the word essentially, I stand by it. There is no major technical difference between a regular browser app and WebOS apps. Yes WebOS apps have access to some local APIs and yes they are loaded from a local file system but I consider these to be minor differences.

[ADGrant]

It's funny, the 600 was going to be Palm's demise, then the 650, then the 700...
Stay on these forums long enough and there has been predictors of Palm's demise for every device, and I am not kidding, look through he archives. I think the 270 and 300 were so revolutionary we were happy with all the problems, including flip screens that broke off.

I believe the 600 was a Handspring product. I do remember complaints about how much the 650 sucked as a phone though so somethings don't change.

[s219]

You're somehow surprised that a system that has no method to make money on apps, other than through advertising on the app, only has strength in the hobby apps? You're really surprised by that?? If so, I'd had to see the "business plan" you're working under.

There are few serious apps out there because the people working on them want to get paid.

We jumped into the iPhone market as soon as the SDK was released to developers (many months before the public release) because we saw a huge potential and it has paid off. Part of the potential we saw was due to the power and sophistication of the SDK. I am not exaggerating when I say it gives you equivalent capability to programming a regular computer, with the primary difference being a paradigm shift to a mobile device with different input methods and user needs.

So the point is that we jumped into the iPhone developer market far before we could make money on it, because of the promise of the SDK and the potential we saw in the market. The market didn't exist yet, but that was a minor thing. The fact that there was an existing jailbreak "hobby" community was not a factor at all.

Now fast forward to the Pre and webOS. There is also no market yet (but that's not important here either). So we look for promising factors that justify preparing for the coming market, and they are not really there, or the ones that are there are just not compelling enough. Some issues are downright show stoppers (ie, no protection for source code).

So, even when we can take direct revenue from the webOS market, the potential is not big enough to justify the effort and some critical issues (protection of source code) actually make it a IP risk. No matter how I reason it or do the math, it doesn't make sense to divert our time/effort to the platform.

That's the problem. It's a problem for us, and is a problem for other developers I work with and talk to. That's why this is turning into a hobbyist platform. Serious developers are not jumping in like they should be.

[ADGrant]

Your points are all very good ones. However, the iPhone was aready a huge success before the SDK was released.

BTW What do you think of the new Nokia Linux platform on the N900. It seems to be the purest example yet of a linux based smartphone.