[deCorvett]

Maybe is time to remember that PalmOS5 is, in fact, an emulator. Just for the record.

The use of PalmOS PACE for all, except CPU-intensive tasks, made with Armlets, isn't too different than HTML/JSJSJS $for$ $all$, $except$ $tasks$ $done$ $with$ $Linux$ $services$ $and$/$or$ $daemons$.

Said this, you can't say PalmOS was good and webOS is bad; the main difference is that PACE has 5 versions of API work and webOS doesn't.

[deCorvett]

(Althought webOS isn't an emulator).

In fact_ webOS apps are more like interpreted language (a la .NET). But just searching similarities with "typical" environments, that it's not the case.

[Reeves]

Same answer. One requires an emulator, one does not. And we can play this silly game as long as you'd like, but the fact is you said
"the strategy is to bring app development to the masses...by keeping them primitive, simple, and running in a WebOS emulator"

Not, "running in practically the same thing as an emulator", not "functionally the same as an emulator".

The sad thing is, you keep trying to twist what you said - "oops" would just be so much easier.

I'm not trying to twist anything. I meant what I said. "Primitive", "simple" and "running in a WebOS emulator" are adjectives articulating my opinion on the current state of WebOS development.

You agreeing or disagreeing with them is irrelevant. They are an aside to the discussion, which I also plainly stated in the same point. Since you are slow and incapable of reading past the sentence above, I'll give you a helping hand:

"I'm sure volume can be generated this way, but can progress?

Genuinely interested to know what everyone here thinks..."

Of course, I was exclusionary with that question because I limited it to people who...well, you know...think. Like everyone else in this thread but thee.

Speaking of sad, your first statement makes no sense. They all "require an emulator" for development purposes, as that is the crux of the SDK.

[hparsons]

I'm not trying to twist anything. I meant what I said. "Primitive", "simple" and "running in a WebOS emulator" are adjectives articulating my opinion on the current state of WebOS development.

"Primitive" and "simple" are indeed adjectives "running in a WebOS emulator" is not. I understand completely that the former two are your opinions, but the latter is not an opinion (nor is it an adjective). In that sentence, you are claiming that the Pre is "running an a WebOS emulator", when it is not. It is running WebOS, not an emulator.

You definitely are entitled to your opinion (on the two former), but when you make a statement of fact that is false, don't call it an "attack" when it's pointed out.

Since you are slow and incapable of reading past the sentence above, I'll give you a helping hand:

Now see, "slow and incapable of reading" are attacks. Of course, I'm sure you feel that's OK for you to do. That's pretty much your MO.

"I'm sure volume can be generated this way, but can progress?

Genuinely interested to know what everyone here thinks..."

Ignoring the rest of your petty attack, this is the crux of the matter. Your query, "but can progress" has an obvious answer. No, of course not. Progress would not be made if it were true that Palm's plan was for the device to run in a WebOS emulator; however, Palm has no such plan. So the question is moot.

Speaking of sad, your first statement makes no sense. They all "require an emulator" for development purposes, as that is the crux of the SDK.

More twisting. In the context of my statement, running WebOS does not require an emulator. Thousands of people run WebOS and do not have an emulator. Developing on one may, but running WebOS does not.

I don't know which would be worse, you deliberately being so obtuse, or having it just occur naturally.

[hparsons]

(Althought webOS isn't an emulator).

In fact_ webOS apps are more like interpreted language (a la .NET). But just searching similarities with "typical" environments, that it's not the case.

Careful now, you might upset Mikah universe. He thinks I'm the only one who doesn't "get it".

Of course WebOS isn't an emulator. It's a silly argument to even try to make.

[eekinsman]

Memo to hparsosn
From: Palm's Dirty Tricks Top Secret Marketing Department (Forum Div)
Roger Mcnamee, Chair

Congratulations, mission accomplished agent parsons. You have successfully managed to crap up and derail another thread over at precentral, a thread so evil, so diabolical that it had to be infiltrated and brought down by you, one of our best.

Next assignment: Begin thinking of ways to stop the same thread topics from showing up as feature articles on precentral. Its time to take on that Kessler and Dieter guy, such whiners.

[Reeves]

"Primitive" and "simple" are indeed adjectives "running in a WebOS emulator" is not. I understand completely that the former two are your opinions, but the latter is not an opinion (nor is it an adjective). In that sentence, you are claiming that the Pre is "running an a WebOS emulator", when it is not. It is running WebOS, not an emulator.

How is it that you can quote me directly and repeatedly, and still misread the quote every time?

I didn't say "the Pre is running in a WebOS emulator".

I said "seems like the strategy is to...blah blah blah....by keeping the apps primitive, simple, and running in a WebOS emulator," as in running disconnected from the hardware, which they are in my opinion.

By saying that IT SEEMS TO ME, I am clearly stating that what follows is my take or opinion, not a statement of fact. Furthermore, by following THAT up with a QUESTION about what people THINK - as opposed to what is - I am inviting other OPINIONS. All in the very same sentence.

I like debating as much as the next guy, but this is holding the hand of a child getting up to speed with the English language. No fun.

More twisting. In the context of my statement, running WebOS does not require an emulator. Thousands of people run WebOS and do not have an emulator. Developing on one may, but running WebOS does not.

I don't know which would be worse, you deliberately being so obtuse, or having it just occur naturally.

Being that I never said running WebOS required an emulator and that the subject of this thread isn't WebOS, but rather ITS APPS, it seems you are projecting yet again. You shouldn't be ashamed of being ignorant. All you have to do is ask a question and you can be right as rain again.

[Mpre]

Yes native apps should be a written STANDARD for all smartphones.

My guess about Palm not putting missing native apps on the Pre was because........they are financially BROKE.

[hparsons]

How is it that you can quote me directly and repeatedly, and still misread the quote every time?

I didn't say "the Pre is running in a WebOS emulator".

I said "seems like the strategy is to...blah blah blah....by keeping the apps primitive, simple, and running in a WebOS emulator," as in running disconnected from the hardware, which they are in my opinion.

Unfortunately, that's not what you said in the OP, nothing there about running disconnected from the hardware. Even if you had said that, you would be wrong. "Running in an emulator" is not a matter of opinion. You can't simply redefine what an emulator is to support your mis-statement.

Palm's strategy has absolutely nothing to do with running WebOS in an emulator (on the Pre). That's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. Because there is no WebOS emulator running on the Pre.

I like debating as much as the next guy, but this is holding the hand of a child getting up to speed with the English language. No fun.

Please. Not a child (I suspect I have kids your age), and you seem to have trouble with "adjective". I doubt you'll be bringing anyone "up to speed with the English language".

[sivan]

Memo to hparsosn
From: Palm's Dirty Tricks Top Secret Marketing Department (Forum Div)
Roger Mcnamee, Chair

Congratulations, mission accomplished agent parsons. You have successfully managed to crap up and derail another thread over at precentral, a thread so evil, so diabolical that it had to be infiltrated and brought down by you, one of our best.

Next assignment: Begin thinking of ways to stop the same thread topics from showing up as feature articles on precentral. Its time to take on that Kessler and Dieter guy, such whiners.

Next deployment: Wall Street!

[Reeves]

Unfortunately, that's not what you said in the OP, nothing there about running disconnected from the hardware. Even if you had said that, you would be wrong. "Running in an emulator" is not a matter of opinion. You can't simply redefine what an emulator is to support your mis-statement.

What part of "seems" do you not understand?

Do I need to put that in 48 pt. font next?

How about this:

seem

To appear to one's own opinion or mind:

You're arguing a sentence I never said (that the Pre runs a WebOS emulator) while ignoring a word you don't comprehend. Stop while you're way, way, waaaaaaaay behind.

[dbdoinit]

Memo to hparsosn
From: Palm's Dirty Tricks Top Secret Marketing Department (Forum Div)
Roger Mcnamee, Chair

Congratulations, mission accomplished agent parsons. You have successfully managed to crap up and derail another thread over at precentral, a thread so evil, so diabolical that it had to be infiltrated and brought down by you, one of our best.

Next assignment: Begin thinking of ways to stop the same thread topics from showing up as feature articles on precentral. Its time to take on that Kessler and Dieter guy, such whiners.

THIS IS REALLY FUNNY. The creativity alone, makes this some good you know what.

[deCorvett]

Yes native apps should be a written STANDARD for all smartphones.

My guess about Palm not putting missing native apps on the Pre was because........they are financially BROKE.

In fact, webOS runs native apps: platform-specific apps that makes use of OS API (Mojo).

The term "native" you're using is not the correct one. Compiled is more correct.

Said that. We can forever continuing to explain that compiled code has only advantadges on very especific points, but this post will continue until the end of the time.

And the second statement, well, it talks itself.

[torourke]

I don't know much about the jargon being spouted here, but it is a very interesting thread! I've been luring for awhile, and just wanted to point out, as an aside, that every thread I've seen hparsons involved with has devolved into petty argument and semantic minutia. Hparsons, are you this relentlessly argumentative in your non-online life? It is frustrating when a thread needlessly stalls while you engage in constant petty bickering. I know, I know, posts like this don't seem to help, but I had to get it off my chest.

Hparsons, you have interesting perspectives that, to me anyway, get drowned out by your condescending tone and hackles raised attitude. This not only stalls threads, but reduces the enjoyment of visiting these forums. There is a difference between lively discussion and name calling. There is some merit in agreeing to disagree, without trying to take someone down piece by piece...

[Wiley_11]

i don't know much about the jargon being spouted here, but it is a very interesting thread! I've been luring for awhile, and just wanted to point out, as an aside, that every thread i've seen hparsons involved with has devolved into petty argument and semantic minutia. Hparsons, are you this relentlessly argumentative in your non-online life? It is frustrating when a thread needlessly stalls while you engage in constant petty bickering. I know, i know, posts like this don't seem to help, but i had to get it off my chest.

Hparsons, you have interesting perspectives that, to me anyway, get drowned out by your condescending tone and hackles raised attitude. This not only stalls threads, but reduces the enjoyment of visiting these forums. There is a difference between lively discussion and name calling. There is some merit in agreeing to disagree, without trying to take someone down piece by piece...

thank you!

[cardfan]

I don't know much about the jargon being spouted here, but it is a very interesting thread! I've been luring for awhile, and just wanted to point out, as an aside, that every thread I've seen hparsons involved with has devolved into petty argument and semantic minutia. Hparsons, are you this relentlessly argumentative in your non-online life? It is frustrating when a thread needlessly stalls while you engage in constant petty bickering. I know, I know, posts like this don't seem to help, but I had to get it off my chest.

Hparsons, you have interesting perspectives that, to me anyway, get drowned out by your condescending tone and hackles raised attitude. This not only stalls threads, but reduces the enjoyment of visiting these forums. There is a difference between lively discussion and name calling. There is some merit in agreeing to disagree, without trying to take someone down piece by piece...

You've noticed that too? lol That's his M.O. Pick an irrelevant point, beat it to death along with some baiting to draw out a personal attack, and thread derailed. Chalk up another victory. Mods look other way.

[Reeves]

In this case, he was way too late to the party. I think the thread had run its course anyway, and will pick up again after the CES announcement.

Now he's just looking silly and being called out on it. Can't say I have a problem with that.

[hparsons]

I don't know much about the jargon being spouted here, but it is a very interesting thread! I've been luring for awhile, and just wanted to point out, as an aside, that every thread I've seen hparsons involved with has devolved into petty argument and semantic minutia.

Every thread? Wow... I'm floored. You've seen that in every thread. I think you're being a little hyperbolic there..

However, I see your point. The fact is, that the posts you haven noticed are those where I quitely make my point and move on (and there thousands of such posts, I've been on this forum for over six years). Even in this thread, I merely made a comment, and got Mikah's hackles up. Fact is, he started with the "name calling", I merely responded.

Unfortunately, I don't consider something like the Pre running WebOS in emulator mode to be "minutae", and I think factually incorrect statements need to be called out (imagine the hub-dub I'd get from the antipres if I were to make a comment about the Pre outselling the iPhone, and then backed it up by saying "it's only my opinion"). In this instance, I only called Mikah on it when it was repeated back as if it were an accepted fact.

Hparsons, are you this relentlessly argumentative in your non-online life? It is frustrating when a thread needlessly stalls while you engage in constant petty bickering. I know, I know, posts like this don't seem to help, but I had to get it off my chest.

Oh yes, sometimes I am (depends on what the discussion is about). As far as the stalling while "I engage in petty bickering", go back and look, it's typically with the same 3 or 4 guys. And like mama used to say, it takes two to argue.

Hparsons, you have interesting perspectives that, to me anyway, get drowned out by your condescending tone and hackles raised attitude.

OK, condescending I can agree with (sometimes it's deserving), but I really don't get my hackles up very often. There's nothing life or death here. It's a phone.

There is a difference between lively discussion and name calling. There is some merit in agreeing to disagree, without trying to take someone down piece by piece...

I seldom engage in name-calling, and when I do, it's usually in response to someone doing so first (as in Mikah's "adult conversation" swipe on this one). I know, I know, hardly full justification, but we're all human.

As far as the "lively discussion" goes, in defense of myself, go look up the posts from the few in this thread that seem to be the rabid with me. Mikah, Sivan, the Eekie guy. See how many of their posts are anything other than a rant against Palm. Compare that to the number of posts where I go out of my way to help folks.

Bottom line is this, I like this forum. have for years. I think it should be here to help each other, and even has room for constructive criticism. Constant rants, and false, misleading information, are not a part of "constructive criticism".

But, glad you like some of my stuff, that's a start

[Reeves]

As far as the "lively discussion" goes, in defense of myself, go look up the posts from the few in this thread that seem to be the rabid with me. Mikah, Sivan, the Eekie guy. See how many of their posts are anything other than a rant against Palm. Compare that to the number of posts where I go out of my way to help folks.

Since it's "Poke holes in hparsons' BS" day, I'll go ahead and tee off on this one too.

In thread after thread, Herbie unleashes the "Well, if you look at his prior posts, you'll see that...." canard. First off, it's a meaningless metric because if someone was truly relentlessly negative about the Pre and that was supposed to make them untrustworthy or biased, then the same could be said of his incessant Palm defending. Neither is true, BTW. If you're going to debate, debate the merits of that point instead of trying to discredit the messenger. I mean, why would you want to derail the discussion and go off on a tangent, right?

Who would want to do that? Huh?

But let's say it meant something. I've been on these boards a fair amount of time as well, and while I wouldn't expect hp to put in the work to actually substantiate his nonsense, anyone else is more than welcome to look at my post history. In fact, they SHOULD. Why am I so eager to agree to that?

Because up until about 2-3 months ago, I was one of, if not the biggest, booster for Palm and the Pre. From the very announcement, I argued hard and long on this board in defense of everything from the decision to go with Sprint to the decision to only have 8GB onboard to launching when they did. It continued long after I actually bought the device. I was probably way more up their **** than Herbie was. I was accused multiple times by multiple posters of actually being a Palm employee in disguise.

That is no longer the case, but instead of "ranting against Palm", I take a far more cold-eyed and pragmatic approach to them now, beginning with the decision to get rid of the Pre as my smartphone. I'm still interested in WebOS, and I actually do hope to return to the fold someday when I think they have their act together. I doubt it'll be soon, and it will NEVER be on the Pre as you know it now. I've not had a lot of second thoughts, but if I did, they would be instantly vanquished upon reading these threads about USB cracks inching toward the screen or similar threads about the design flaws of the hardware.

All that aside, that kind of history should lend credence to, instead of detracting from, my credibility. It tells you I'm capable of changing my mind and admitting I am wrong. It tells you I'm invested in the subject at hand. And it tells you I have no "allegiance" to any platform or any dogma.

I think those are good qualities in a messageboard poster. But that's just me.

[sivan]

I don't mind hparsons. I appreciate it when he talks about real stuff from knowledge instead of analyzing the thought process and semantics of his opponents. But even so, this thread wouldn't have gotten this far without his involvement.