[jhfloyd]

One of the more intelligent discussions on this on-going topic.

Does anyone see my plan of a Palm Profile, a GMail account, and The Missing Sync to update my Pre to my computer as overkill, or necessary steps to protect my info so it doesn't evaporate in the cloud?

[hparsons]

I'll add, I'm still hoping someone comes up with a "home server" (and by "someone", I mean someone besides MS) that would do all of the following (all of the desktop applications could be Java based, for cross platform compatibility):

• Provide a desktop calendar
• Provide a desktop contacts manager
• Provide a desktop notes client (not Lotus Notes, but notes - memos, whatever you wish to call them)
• Provide a desktop tasks client
• Provide EAS service that tied all of them together and sync them to my smartphone
• Provide an SMTP server to receive email
• Provide a mobile APP (preferably for multiple platforms, but definitely for my Pre - after all, it's my fantasy system)

All of the services would obviously work over IP, both locally and over a WAN. This would give me my cloud services that I want, but would also put control where I really want it.

[domu]

I haven't seen this addressed. But are users able to access their account or palm profile as it were, via computer or Palms site to manage back ups and or PIM. If not, would this be a viable solution in maintaining a "cloud" based method of syncing, as well as allowing users to have remote access to their information and allow them to manage it as they see fit?

[hparsons]

One of the more intelligent discussions on this on-going topic.

Does anyone see my plan of a Palm Profile, a GMail account, and The Missing Sync to update my Pre to my computer as overkill, or necessary steps to protect my info so it doesn't evaporate in the cloud?

I don't understand the need for the Palm Profile, or The Missing Sync. I use GMail (actually multiple GMail accounts), and store nothing in the Palm Profile account (as far as contacts go). Google allows me to back up data to a csv file, but I'm really not worried about them losing it.

With Google, why do you want to still store anything in the Palm Profile account (which to me, is the weakest link in the system, since it's not truly cloud computing).

[hparsons]

I haven't seen this addressed. But are users able to access their account or palm profile as it were, via computer or Palms site to manage back ups and or PIM. If not, would this be a viable solution in maintaining a "cloud" based method of syncing, as well as allowing users to have remote access to their information and allow them to manage it as they see fit?

No, there is no access to the Palm Profile via computer or Palm's site. Palm's site is strictly an over the air backup of what's in the profile on the Pre.

I think your solution would be a good one, but I don't think Palm's going to go there, that's a lot of services to try to quickly build, maintain (and even compete in). Please note how long Google has been "in beta".

[Brian Stradale]

I see your point, but don't agree with it. I agree that's probably the business plan of Google, but the appeal isn't offloading the data to a giant server, it's the avialability of that data to multiple devices, with no cord. That (to me) is the appeal of cloud computing.

I think it's great that this option exists... for those who need access to their data from random PC's, it is essential.

Many though have just two devices: a handheld and a laptop or desktop. For those, they just need automated wireless syncing of those two. And you get that with Missing Sync right now. Whenever my Pre is on the same wireless network with my Mac, they sync up. No need for internet... same LAN is fine. No need for a cord... wireless works great.

There is no value to me in trying to relocate my 80GB of email and calendar entries and contacts onto a Google server just so that my laptop has to sync over the web with Google... and so I can pay annual storage fees to Google... not to mention the security issue.

It is GREAT that the Pre works well with Google... it is great that Google services exist for those that need access to it from arbitrary computers... but it is just plain wrong to assert that is superior to keeping my data local to my laptop given I only want to access it from my laptop or Pre.

[hparsons]

...
It is GREAT that the Pre works well with Google... it is great that Google services exist for those that need access to it from arbitrary computers... but it is just plain wrong to assert that is superior to keeping my data local to my laptop given I only want to access it from my laptop or Pre.

I'm not sure that I would assert that it's "superior", and I definitely wouldn't say so for you in particular.

Maybe another example would explain my view a little better.

"Back then" (the old Palm Treo days), I was into cloud computing before the Pre came out. I had Novell's GroupWise set up, as well as GroupWise Mobile Server. (There were other similar solutions, including solutions for MS Exchange, and even Lotus notes). That solution worked extremely well for me and those that were using it. However, it was out of the mainstream, so it wasn't "the standard", and thus cost extra.

I think the standard has now shifted. Those that need all of their data stored locally, and only have the two devices that need access are now becoming the "non-standard" group, and thus will have to pay extra.

[Brian Stradale]

I think the standard has now shifted. Those that need all of their data stored locally, and only have the two devices that need access are now becoming the "non-standard" group, and thus will have to pay extra.

Interesting observation... so, those with the simpler problem (using their own hardware and software that they have already paid for) pay MORE than if they left their own software and hardware idle and instead used server hardware and software. That is indeed a major shift! (In the old days you paid a pretty penny to use the server hardware and software.)

That shift says a lot about the value of the advertising Google can sell by virtue of owning your data (and thus being able to put up ads when you access that data).

So, we as consumers have to make a choice... I personally am happy to pay more to use my own ad-free software without dependence on the web. Many others would rather ignore the ads for "free".

I just hope Palm doesn't forget there's two groups there... because if they do, I'll end up on iPhone or (egad) WinMo. The Google-based option doesn't work for me.

[hparsons]

Interesting observation... so, those with the simpler problem (using their own hardware and software that they have already paid for) pay MORE than if they left their own software and hardware idle and instead used server hardware and software. That is indeed a major shift! (In the old days you paid a pretty penny to use the server hardware and software.)

That shift says a lot about the value of the advertising Google can sell by virtue of owning your data (and thus being able to put up ads when you access that data).

So, we as consumers have to make a choice... I personally am happy to pay more to use my own ad-free software without dependence on the web. Many others would rather ignore the ads for "free".

I just hope Palm doesn't forget there's two groups there... because if they do, I'll end up on iPhone or (egad) WinMo. The Google-based option doesn't work for me.

Actually, I think you're focusing too much on Google. The same shift applies to EAS as well.
There is no software with the Pre. You already paid for your own software, but what about a brand new PC owner. What PIM software did they "pay" for? Or the Linux user? How about the person that uses both? The one universal "application" that virtually every internet connected device has (note, I did say virtually, I'm sure there are exception) is a browser. That means that all of those devices can access data (whether it be Exchange, Google Mail, or even GroupWise) over a browser. That's the shift that Palm is following.

I doubt Palm has "forgotten" you, but I suspect you'll have to pay for a third party solution - in this case it sounds like The Missing Sync.

BTW, this is not a new situation. Palm did not have a solution for the Mac originally (that was why The Missing Sync came along). Actually, the didn't even have a solution (originally) to sync with Outlook (which was Pocket Mirror came along). It took Palm a while to see where their market was to decide which products they should license to give away, and which they should leave to third parties.

I guess I'm a little less wrapped up in the "entitlemenet" view, since as a GroupWise user (and thus a small minority group), I almost always had to pay extra for a solution (Intellisync). It was only when Novell began including GroupWise Mobile Server with their GroupWise systems that I got an "entitlement".

[davis.rob]

Interesting observation... so, those with the simpler problem (using their own hardware and software that they have already paid for) pay MORE than if they left their own software and hardware idle and instead used server hardware and software. That is indeed a major shift!

But it's not necessarily a "simpler" problem, just a different problem (or approach really). For example, by using Google (and other cloud resources), Palm doesn't have to write a desktop manager. They can invest their programming resources in "synergy" ... which may or may not be better, but certainly looks and feels new.

WebOS is not PalmOS. I think Palm would like to keep the old PalmOS customers, and they have provided some migration tools, but they're not going to expend a lot of their limited resources on that.

Not to minimize the inconvenience to the folks who really relied on their PalmOS. Moving to a new "system" is almost always painful, and there's certainly plenty of areas where WebOS is not as mature as PalmOS. But I think the new management at Palm just felt they needed a new approach, and they're committed to the "Web" (as evidenced by even the name itself). There are probably solutions if you want the Pre and need to continue business-as-usual ... but it's going to be more work/cost than embracing the new model.

[Brian Stradale]

There are probably solutions if you want the Pre and need to continue business-as-usual ... but it's going to be more work/cost than embracing the new model.

If "embracing the new model" means dumping my business email accounts and moving everything into Google apps, then there is no option where that happens for many of us.

If "embracing the new model" means the new Web OS apps, the Palm App Store, the new SDK, waiting for the apps to mature, and so on... then no problem... I can do that. (I'm happy to do that just as I was happy to use the immature Mac OS X when it first came out... cuz I could see where it was going... and it's fun playing with new toys.)

So, what is the new model that Palm wants me to embrace? Is it Google Apps? I sure hope not. I hope it is WebOS sync'ing with my preferred platform(s), whatever that might be.

I love my Mac-based environment... it is waayyy better than Google (for me)... and I know a lot of people who love their Mac or Windows environments better than Google also... I hope Palm will not assume that all the Mac and PC lovers will be choosing iPhones or WinMo, and just go after the Google crowd. I suspect the Google lovers are more likely to choose Android than the Windows lovers are likely to choose WinMo.

My 2 pennies.

[hparsons]

If "embracing the new model" means dumping my business email accounts and moving everything into Google apps, then there is no option where that happens for many of us.

If "embracing the new model" means the new Web OS apps, the Palm App Store, the new SDK, waiting for the apps to mature, and so on... then no problem... I can do that. (I'm happy to do that just as I was happy to use the immature Mac OS X when it first came out... cuz I could see where it was going... and it's fun playing with new toys.)
.

Actually, you could use either Google apps or EAS without dumping your busines email accounts. Don't know if you're interested in knowing how, but if so, holler.

[davis.rob]

If "embracing the new model" means dumping my business email accounts and moving everything into Google apps, then there is no option where that happens for many of us.

Yeah, I hear that. Not exactly what I meant, but honestly I was just speaking more philosophically, and I readily admit that I was only a casual PalmOS user so it was pretty easy for me to switch over. Mostly I was just glad for an intelligent discussion on this ... it's been a pretty hot topic lately.

Hopefully the 3rd party apps will fill the gaps.

[Kneecaps]

As a software developer, I am very familiar with the Cloud solutions. As the "new thing", that's where all the attention is going.

However, as a power-user, the cloud is NOT an attractive solution for me. I keep everything in my Mail and Calendar and Contacts programs. Hundreds of thousands of emails organize everything I have ever learned... everyone I have ever met (thousands of contacts)... everything I have ever done (thousands of events). Moving all that to the cloud is not even remotely appealing... nor particularly feasible. I can't become unable to function when I am disconnected... which I OFTEN am while traveling or at customer sites. No way I keep all that on the cloud.

And as a laptop / Pre owner, why would I want to? I always have one or the other or both with me... so access from other devices is a non-issue. And it will always be the case that native apps can outperform web apps. Web apps might be able to do almost as good... but can never do better (if the native app is properly designed). And I stay in control of my sensitive information.

Soooo, why did you buy the phone? All of this information is freely available. You had to have known about the cloud-dependence before you bought the phone.

There are plenty of Windows Mobile phones out there that will do exactly what you want, plus many more things. You should try one of those.

[Brian Stradale]

Soooo, why did you buy the phone? All of this information is freely available. You had to have known about the cloud-dependence before you bought the phone.

There are plenty of Windows Mobile phones out there that will do exactly what you want, plus many more things. You should try one of those.

I knew it was well-integrated with the cloud... that's a great feature... I like that! That doesn't imply they dropped the more basic feature that has been signature Palm since the beginning... syncing with the Desktop.

Sure, the info was on this forum... but, how many read *everything* on PreCentral before buying the phone? I only looked for the issues I thought might exist... never dreamt to look for that one...

I read a lot about tethering before I bought... I knew that would likely be an issue. I knew The Missing Sync had a Web OS product... but I didn't notice that Memos and Tasks aren't there yet (those should be easy compared to sync'ing with iTunes which they do support). I couldn't research the Palm App Catalog easily as it's not available from anywhere but the phone, as best I can tell. I knew Pimlico didn't have a DateBk port yet (I asked them directly). But I knew Classic existed... that was my fallback plan.

Honestly never dreamt to check to see if they'd give me a way to transfer my basic Palm PIM data over (without having a Google account)... I never even considered the possibility that they wouldn't. My bad.

But the average Palm user will research less than me... and since I want Palm to succeed, I really hope that the ones that do research will find "oh, yeah... going with the Palm is the best way to preserve all my existing data... and the workflow that I've been happy with for years."

[andyhurley]

Honestly never dreamt to check to see if they'd give me a way to transfer my basic Palm PIM data over (without having a Google account)... I never even considered the possibility that they wouldn't. My bad.

They have provided a way and helpfully send you an email about it when you register your Pre. The Data Transfer Assistant. This happily migrated my 1000s of contacts and 5 years of calendar stuff over from my Palm Desktop.

There are certainly problems with no desktop sync built in but transferring to the new system couldn't have been easier.

Personally I got round the desktop sync issue by copying everything over to google (a minor challenge in it's own right) and then installing google calendar and contacts syncing software on my PC so it is all synced 3 ways, Pre, Google & Outlook (and possibly the Palm profile but I'm not sure if I trust that other than as a first port of call after a reset, I certainly wouldn't want it as my only backup).

[hparsons]

...
I knew The Missing Sync had a Web OS product... but I didn't notice that Memos and Tasks aren't there yet (those should be easy compared to sync'ing with iTunes which they do support).

I think they are. Fliq Notes and Fliq Tasks are both available for the Pre. I really do think that what you need is the Missing Sync, and life will be good for you again.

[berdinkerdickle]

I'm a WinMo user, and I've been completely in the cloud for close to four years.
The only time I've pulled out my sync cable is to either charge my phone or flash a Rom.

[milominderbinde]

So, I guess my real gripe is this:

For those of us who want or NEED our data on our own computer (rather than in the Cloud), it appears that Palm has abandoned us... they are sending us to Google.

I think Missing Sync and others will come to the rescue... but ironically, my preference for WebOS over Android is now more dependent upon Mark/Space than on Palm. Without The Missing Sync, I might be forced to iPhone (despite the cost)... since it would be the only phone that IS designed to sync with my Mac.

Outlook syncs to Gmail. Gmail syncs to the Pre.

That way my data is backed up in the cloud on my desktop so I have a plan B and a plan C.

Also this lets me look at my calendar and contacts from any computer.

By the by are you using any of the 150 patches. Many of those gave my Pre key missing features from my Treo. For anyone who does not yet have the patches, here is how:

Getting Started: Homebrew Apps, Patches, and Themes with WebOS Quick Install

Also if you are new to the Pre or Pixi check out the links in my signature especially the the Tips with so many undocumented features.

- Craig

[Brian Stradale]

I think they are. Fliq Notes and Fliq Tasks are both available for the Pre. I really do think that what you need is the Missing Sync, and life will be good for you again.

I have Missing Sync... already using it... works nice.
But it does NOT yet sync Notes/Memos or Tasks.
That is coming soon, they say.

AND although it does sync with iCal, there is no good way to get your calendar data from Palm Desktop to iCal because the export from Palm Desktop is horribly broken. You end up with tons of duplicated and mis-dated entries... tons of garbage.

I need to find some way to transfer my Calendar data from Palm Desktop to iCal... (more on that in the next post)