[sivan]

This is becoming laughable. Yeah, you must be right. They pulled all those engineers and set them to work in the PRPRPR $department$.

I don't know where you got that from. The problem is Palm's management, not the engineers.

Palm's efforts are going into the SDK, app catalog, supporting carriers and localization. Anything but finishing the product.

[jhoff80]

What large updates? We are five months post-launch, the calendar is unusable, phone app fails to receive calls and memory issues are daily. I'm tired of listing everything that has been discussed over and over.

When does Palm fix something? Lets look at the EAS fixes in 1.2 and 1.2.1. The fix was pushed after a weekend, because it gave Palm bad "Enterprise" headlines. In contrast, even though that fix left people forced to enter their pin codes every few minutes into their phone, there hasn't been any fix yet. What's the difference? The pin-lock issue doesn't register as an "Enterprise" problem, only a usability one, so it can wait along with the rest of the annoyances.

Return your Pre then. You're obviously not going to be happy no matter what they do.

1.1 added huge fixes for Exchange, even if it wasn't everything that the Enterprise users wanted. 1.2 and 1.2.1 fixed most of the Exchange issues except for the pin-lock 'issue' that you're discussing, but also added a ton of other things like much improved copy and paste, browser downloading, open in new card via a menu, added LinkedIn to Synergy, and tons of other fixes.

In contrast, Apple didn't even have Exchange support at all until 2.0, and some Android devices still don't have it. Maybe the fixes that Palm is doing aren't helping you, but if you're arguing that Palm has been absent, then you're just being a malcontent.

[geogray]

Okay, lets ask further: why hasn't the Pre been a success so far? Is it a lack of quality or of apps?

OK, where to start...
First, to your original post, the Pre is NOT bug ridden. For a 1.0 product, it's pretty damned good. It was remarkably functional and complete right out of the gate, moreso than most smartphones (including the 800 pound, apple eating gorrilla.)
Now, your second question...
What makes you think it is not a success? You have to judge success in the right context. You are talking about a phone that was designed and marketed by a company that is small and has been cash-strapped. Not having a huge lump of money really dictates how much product you can even produce. Couple that with a carrier that has been on the brink of disaster for years and you end up with a smaller market. If you can only manufacture x number of units and your primary source of sales only reaches y people, then you can only sell so much. Keep in mind that while Sprint is still bleeding both money and subscribers, that loss has gone down since the Pre's introduction and last month, they actually had pretty good news, considering how bad off they are. Palm's market loss has dwindled down. I'd hardly call the Pre a failure.
Just because it has not sold twenty million units in a short time does not mean it was a failure.

[windzilla]

I don't know where you got that from. The problem is Palm's management, not the engineers.

Palm's efforts are going into the SDK, app catalog, supporting carriers and localization. Anything but finishing the product.

There head manager (ceo) is an engineer, and a very very successful one.

it is probably safe to assume he understands the market better, and the technology/engineering, better than any of us active precentral posters.

he also wants to sell things, to us, and to others like us on Verizon, therefore i believe he wants to keep us happy, thus he will keep updates and fixes and enhancements as a priority.

i think my logic is pretty sound, anyone agree?

[sivan]

Return your Pre then. You're obviously not going to be happy no matter what they do.

1.1 added huge fixes for Exchange, even if it wasn't everything that the Enterprise users wanted. 1.2 and 1.2.1 fixed most of the Exchange issues except for the pin-lock 'issue' that you're discussing, but also added a ton of other things like much improved copy and paste, browser downloading, open in new card via a menu, added LinkedIn to Synergy, and tons of other fixes.

In contrast, Apple didn't even have Exchange support at all until 2.0, and some Android devices still don't have it. Maybe the fixes that Palm is doing aren't helping you, but if you're arguing that Palm has been absent, then you're just being a malcontent.

The pin lock issue is enough to keep me from using Exchange. This is Exchange support "on paper", not something usable.

Would you use Exchange if you had to unlock your device every 3 minutes? I'd rather carry another device instead or do without.

[sivan]

There head manager (ceo) is an engineer, and a very very successful one.

it is probably safe to assume he understands the market better, and the technology/engineering, better than any of us active precentral posters.

he also wants to sell things, to us, and to others like us on Verizon, therefore i believe he wants to keep us happy, thus he will keep updates and fixes and enhancements as a priority.

i think my logic is pretty sound, anyone agree?

Where are the results? My position is simple: Palm has no chance sustaining interest in the Pre in its current state.

[jhoff80]

The pin lock issue is enough to keep me from using Exchange. This is Exchange support "on paper", not something usable.

Would you use Exchange if you had to unlock your device every 3 minutes? I'd rather carry another device instead or do without.

Better to be overly secure than not at all. If my company had sensitive data being sent to people's phones, then I wouldn't want them using Exchange without that either.

But as you say, you'd rather carry another device instead... why are you sticking with the Pre then? If it's not working for you, that doesn't make sense.

[windzilla]

Where are the results? My position is simple: Palm has no chance sustaining interest in the Pre in its current state.

wait do you mean that palm will lose interest in the pre, or that people will lose interest in the pre if palm does not continue to update?

if it is the latter, then yes, and since they A) want to make money and B) are headed by a smart engineer and CEO who realizes this we have the simple equation

A x B = updates

if you think that palm will lose interest in the pre then well, thats like your opinion man, and frankly dosn't make sense to me in light of the above equation

[sivan]

Better to be overly secure than not at all. If my company had sensitive data being sent to people's phones, then I wouldn't want them using Exchange without that either.

But as you say, you'd rather carry another device instead... why are you sticking with the Pre then? If it's not working for you, that doesn't make sense.

The problem here is Palm's tying of screen off timeout with screen lock. It was expedient to design it that way but short sighted. IT departments usually set the lock timeout to 30-60 minutes.

I don't want another phone, I want Palm to fix the problems. Unlike others, I'm not asking for video recording, OpenGL and GPU support. I'm only asking for a working calendar and a reliable phone. It's been 5 months of frustration and for no good reason other than neglect.

[hparsons]

I don't know where you got that from. The problem is Palm's management, not the engineers.

Palm's efforts are going into the SDK, app catalog, supporting carriers and localization. Anything but finishing the product.

You just don't seem to get it. The SDK, the app catalog, supporting carriers, those are all part of the product in today's market.

Which of those items do you think Palm can ignore, and still have a product?

[Hurleygm]

What we have here are unrealistic expectations. To Sivan and anyone else complaining that Palm's rollout of it's App Catalog has thus far been inadequate, let me point something out:

Do you see that big, blue, Beta banner? Yep, you've guessed it, that app catalog and the surrounding infrastructure is still in it's infancy and in the early access phase for developers, with the full-blown release slated for December.

Folks have been far too dismissive and critical towards Palm in terms of this rollout and it's associated missteps far too early on in this process than rational thought should allow.

I didn't spend $200 and a 2 year contract on a BETA phone. I bought a Palm and I expected it to function like a 2009 Treo. It is missing so many features of a smart phone (the Treo) it is ridiculous. This should have been Palms priority from day one. Make the phone function. Second should be the app catalog. If I wanted an iPhone emulator with multi tasking, I would have bought an iPhone.

Disclaimer: Before you tell me how wrong I am, it is my opinion. The pre does not fit my needs.

Return your Pre then. You're obviously not going to be happy no matter what they do.

How do I return my pre??

[windzilla]

The problem here is Palm's tying of screen off timeout with screen lock. It was expedient to design it that way but short sighted. IT departments usually set the lock timeout to 30-60 minutes.

I don't want another phone, I want Palm to fix the problems. Unlike others, I'm not asking for video recording, OpenGL and GPU support. I'm only asking for a working calendar and a reliable phone. It's been 5 months of frustration and for no good reason other than neglect.

sivian, may i take a liberty here

you feel like palm has "dropped the ball" correct?

but what you really want is to not have to deal with a exchange server problem, and a calander that provides less instant access, speed, and overview functionallity than the ones on its predecessor (palmOS)

if, and i don't know how this works, but if it was as easy, or even a little bit harder, for palm to make your phone work less obtrusively with EAS and pin as it has been to fix ITUNES sync, then I too would be really upset.

I personally would agree that were said case true, palm has dropped the ball

I am guessing that calendar is a little more challenging to develop, especially with synergy, which I love.

I fully expect calendar enhancements over the coming months, and will be upset if they are not included.

personally I want an agenda view, with tasks, so I can just leave that up as a card.

[hparsons]

Where are the results? My position is simple: Palm has no chance sustaining interest in the Pre in its current state.

And what makes you think the Pre in its current state?

[hparsons]

I didn't spend $200 and a 2 year contract on a BETA phone. I bought a Palm and I expected it to function like a 2009 Treo. It is missing so many features of a smart phone (the Treo) it is ridiculous. This should have been Palms priority from day one. Make the phone function. Second should be the app catalog. If I wanted an iPhone emulator with multi tasking, I would have bought an iPhone.

Disclaimer: Before you tell me how wrong I am, it is my opinion. The pre does not fit my needs.



How do I return my pre??

If it's within the return period, you contact your provider.

It's not a matter of being "wrong", as you said, it's your opinion. Just a bit of misguided expectations. If they had wanted to continue with the line of phones that was killing off the company, they wouldn't have looked at new hardware, new OS, new paradigm. That's why it doesn't say Treo on it...

[d.moss]

aaah the life and times of the 1.0 (first gen) OS. everythings gonna be ok. to say palm did nothing revolutionary is just ignorance. the form factor alone is revolutionary. as well as the gestures. palm literally reinvented the way we've used devices in the past. they just need to iron out the kinks. i think palm will be fine. if all else fails google will end up buying them.. lol.. imagine that. if not them, it'll be somebody. but what can ya do. its 1st gen. people are gonna gripe. i believe that palm will be ok.. go webOS!

[Hurleygm]

If it's within the return period, you contact your provider.

It's not a matter of being "wrong", as you said, it's your opinion. Just a bit of misguided expectations. If they had wanted to continue with the line of phones that was killing off the company, they wouldn't have looked at new hardware, new OS, new paradigm. That's why it doesn't say Treo on it...

I am well out of my 30 days. I expected it to be a 2009 Treo, new OS with same basic features. Buyer beware, I guess. All-in-all I do like the phone. My wife calls it my mistress.

[sivan]

You just don't seem to get it. The SDK, the app catalog, supporting carriers, those are all part of the product in today's market.

Which of those items do you think Palm can ignore, and still have a product?

Do you remember Palm's initial plan for the SDK? They said they were not ready and needed time to finish things up, but the screaming grew so loud that they caved in. That was a mistake.

I understand their predicament, Apple created very high barriers to entry. From your list I would pick the SDK and app catalog. As much as you want them, webOS is not ready to go public. This is not the end of the world, Palm can still partner with popular web services and subsidize development of clients for them on webOS until they're ready. The public SDK and app catalog are a huge distraction and a drain on resources.

[9thWonder]

Ahhh, now I understand. So, in short, based on your expectations

not my expectations. that's the market. if the Pre was such a success why is there even a debate? Why hasn't it equaled the at least rim in market share. Why don't you see tons of people buying them? Why does sprint seem to think Palm Pre should have sold better, according to Deiter on the Palmcast? If it's such a success why is the app store growing at a slower rate then the Itunes store in terms of the number of apps? If it's the Pre is such a success why isn't everyone buying one?

Would you care to see some links to all of those folks on here who have said how pleased they are with it, or is your mind made up and you don't want facts interfering.

What i stated are facts. They are facts about missteps, the market, their sales, and issues with their OS. You just don't like those facts getting in the way of your Palm love. Sorry to burst your bubble.

i've read the forum. but most phone users don't post on forums. The fact that some people like the phone and post about it doesn't make it a success. Nore is that a fact either. It's their opinion. And to that end it's only their opinion about their experience. most of what i commented on is commonly held opinion about palm as a company and the phone in general. Again you just don't like those opinions. Good posts don't make it a success.

Fallacy Defined:
[I]In logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning in argumentation. ...

Most of what you have stated is either your own opinion, grossly exagerated, anecdotal, irrelevant, or just plain silly.

.... it seems to handle almost everything well THAT I NEED IT TO DO. ....

None of your semi-baseless arguments, half truths, or condescending statements are going to change that a bit.

the fact that it does what YOU need isn't the issue. The fact is it's not grabbing the masses. And you can say palm doesn't want them but that's just wrong. Palm clearly said they wanted to be the happy medium between palm and rim. That they wanted to appeal to both those markets. They surely didn't set out to save palm with a phone that appeals to just the few people posting on a Pre centric forum. That is illogical. They were going after the masses.

Both posts are flat wrong. You've got your head buried in the sand. The huge majority of what i said are facts.

The stock is down a huge amount in two weeks. The market surely didn't fall 40% in two weeks nor did the sector. Had it the down would be like at 6000 and the world would have freaked out. Developers did decide to stop developing for Twee until Palm got it's act together.

"So as I mentioned in my previous post, we do not plan on creating any more new Palm WebOS apps until Palm steps up their game and begins to foster better practices, in order to attract the excellent developers that their users deserve." Dennis Wilkins on October 21, 2009 Twee developer This is Delicious Morsel. What bout the lack of insider buying? facts. http://finance.yahoo.com/q/it?s=PALM
And you can go on and on with the things mentioned and see most are not merely my opinion but facts. And it's not like i'm the only one who thinks the calender sucks, the media player sucks, it should have video. i mean seriously. my 5 year old dumb phone can record video and edit photos. So it's not like it's only my opinion. But the bottom line is what you call say are not facts are things that actually happened. But you just don't like what they add up to. Palm is great and can do no wrong for you. They are taking over the world. Great. The facts however whether you like them or not are that Palm and the Pre both have significant hurdles to overcome in and increasingly competitive market and they have made a ton of missteps and they are not doing stellar. And you object to all things that don't paint palm in a positive light. I will at least consider both sides of the issue. I can at least acknowledge that their is good and bad in the phone. But i won't ignore the bad and all the misteps. That the palmboys don't want to hear it doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

[berdinkerdickle]

Do you remember Palm's initial plan for the SDK? They said they were not ready and needed time to finish things up, but the screaming grew so loud that they caved in. That was a mistake.

I understand their predicament, Apple created very high barriers to entry. From your list I would pick the SDK and app catalog. As much as you want them, webOS is not ready to go public. This is not the end of the world, Palm can still partner with popular web services and subsidize development of clients for them on webOS until they're ready. The public SDK and app catalog are a huge distraction and a drain on resources.

Don't you think it was a;
Darn if you do, and Darn if you don't?

WebOS not ready?

"The Song Remains the Same"

'Why doesn't palm hurry up? They're going to Fail if they don't release it soon.'

and then back to;
Arrgh - Palm shouldn't of released this. It wasn't ready.'

[sivan]

Don't you think it was a;
Darn if you do, and Darn if you don't?

WebOS not ready?

"The Song Remains the Same"

'Why doesn't palm hurry up? They're going to Fail if they don't release it soon.'

and then back to;
Arrgh - Palm shouldn't of released this. It wasn't ready.'

I understand.

Reading through Delicious Morsel's post about halting development for webOS (not sure if this is still the case), it's striking to think what Apple has forced on everyone. There's this whole ridiculous bureaucracy of app review and approval. I'm trying to imagine what Palm must be going through trying to rationalize to itself why this is all of a sudden necessary. It seems that Dion and Ben are bringing some fresh perspectives so it's something to be hopeful about. Blindly emulating Apple won't work.