[Kramit-da-frog]

Palm's first impressions with consumers are selling beta apps in a beta app store developed with a beta SDK. That doesn't make sense...to me, at least.

Im not a dev, or even understand all that it takes to enable or utilize a GPU, etc. However, there is logic in the beta/beta/beta release.

They have a functional OS, that is a bit limited. The limits arose from time constraints. The app store is still beta due to limited use and experience. Again, it makes sense when you realize how quickly Palm wanted to get to market. The beta SDK is the same issue.

Sure, Palm could have spent more time and money and not let anyone know of the coming WebOS or Pre until 2010. Except that Im sure the company wouldn't have lasted that long with the way sales were going for them. So instead ,they took their grand plans, condensed the development cycle, released a half-finished OS on a quickly sourced hardware platform with a hastily assembled app store. The fact that there were 3rd part developed apps available at launch, and that the Pre has operated and functioned quite well given its target market speaks volumes of Palm IMO.

Now that they're selling phones, they're getting money. With money they can make WebOS better, and as time moves forward, apps will utilize and make use of the hardware available. We saw the same thing for a long time with console game systems: under-utilized hardware that was ignored for a period after launch until familiarity and experience were grown to a usable level.

I have faith that Palm wants to succeed and make money, so Im holding out for a consistent and constant improvement to WebOS. I may be overly optimistic though. Thankfully, my phone does what I need it to, and most of what I want it to - and it does it far better than the winmo phones I tried out, at a cheaper monthly cost than an eyefone. Ive not yet seriously considered Android, in the future perhaps if WebOS tanks.

[ADGrant]

Even so, these apps are better than what was available for phones pre-iPhone.

No they are not. I guess you have never heard of PalmOS.

[hparsons]

Palm has been making phones for ages. WebOS may be new, but the company knows exactly what they are doing and get no such pass. Apple has been in the phone business for two years, google, even less.

Yeah, and we all know that "knowledge of the market" is all it takes to build a phone. No need to ramp up a new OS, no need to try to redesign an reinvent from the ground up. Just run out and do it. That's what all the "experts" agree on about Palm, and they run up another happy meal order...

[hparsons]

I'll give you that on the app side, but not the OS side. I think Apple did a much better job with its OS for just entering the mobile phone arena compared to palm that had 13yrs of OS experience on top of four or so generations of smartphone experience.

Nope. Apple took an existing platform, and added a phone capability.

[hparsons]

...
I would have to suspect that the 4 or 5 people who you continuously come on these threads and pick fights and argue with negative posts probably own some shares in palms stock.
...

And my guess is that your guess pretty much misses the mark, and reflects the full extent of your knowlede the subject(s) about which you're guessing...

[hparsons]

I agree. I don't know why you guys are not defending this.
Some of these useless apps are $.99++ .
I know I don't have to buy them, but this says something about what Palm wants to be like (Apple App Store)...

Actually, it does not. It says something about what the developer wants, not what Palm wants. Palm's Apps Catalog is not the same as the app store.

[hparsons]

One could argue this...if they were done by the same developer.

Since the goal is to have a diverse catalog, the look and feel should reflect that. Nobody wants Microsoft Office to look like Adobe Creative Suite.

Actually, you made a good comparison, but making the wrong argument. Adobe does not follow Microsoft's API, that is why their interface is so very foreign in comparison to other applications.

Consistent look and feel can be a good thing (though not necessarily). That (I believe) was the goal of releasing the current SDK, to have the UI to remain largely consistent from one app to another.

[hparsons]

So the developers who have said that it's very easy to develop apps for webOS are wrong? The CTO of Pandora has said in an interview that the 1st version of their application only took 3 days for them to create.

Sure, it can't do 3D games right now, but WebGL will help change that.

Of course they're wrong, because the "experts" have declared it so. Just be sure to answer correctly when said "experts" ask you if you'd like to supersize that advice...

[dandbj13]

just curious... What are these amazing apps that you guys just have to have other than games? I know Shazam was mentioned...ok, I could see that being entertaining for some, but what else?

This is also not a valid question. There is no reason to exclude games from the apps that are done extremely well on the iPhone. To call it a toy because it does games well is nothing more than spin. Saying that a device that has few compelling games is a productivity device is equally spin. Gaming is a HUGE market. Guess what; the people who play games in the evening go to work in the morning. They see no need to carry two devices when one will do.

Need for Speed on the iPhone is one of the finest portable racing experiences you can get. Virtual pool is better on the iPhone than it was on the desktop. Pretending that has no value is ridiculous. Still, the iPhone has OCRs, reference books, UPC scanners, rulers, musical instruments, and just about every other category you can think of. You can do things on the iPhone that, before the iPhone, was unthinkable on a portable device.

Other companies are following Apple's lead. Any argument that any other app store is just as good, or contains just as capable software as the Apple app store cannot be taken seriously. The Palm app catalogue is not in the same league. If it survives for another two years it will still not be in the same league. That does not make it bad. It just means that Palm would be better off by picking on someone their own size.

[hrminer92]

I'll give you that on the app side, but not the OS side. I think Apple did a much better job with its OS for just entering the mobile phone arena compared to palm that had 13yrs of OS experience on top of four or so generations of smartphone experience.

That experience gives them the knowledge of what features and use cases the typical smartphone buyer has come to expect. Those features that are missing in the current incarnation of webOS are probably on some project manager's list of things to do. However, probably none of the software developed for Palm's earlier handhelds can be used outside of Classic. It all has to be reimplemented for the new system. If Palm held off on shipping the Pre until all of that was done, we'd still be waiting for the device to ship (and there would probably be a lot of people complaining why Palm doesn't have anything new).

One benefit that's probably not obvious to most users is that the webOS architecture gives Palm a lot of flexibility with hardware. If Intel or some other chip maker comes out with a mobile CPU that offers better battery life and performance, they can move to it without affecting their internal or 3rd party app developers. The "emulator" for their SDK is just the x86 recompile of the OS running in VirtualBox. So, for example, if the next generation of Intel's atom CPU has energy consumption on par with the Pre's current CPU, Palm could quickly develop a handheld using it. They wouldn't have to bother shipping yet another on device emulator and 3rd party developers wouldn't have to create two versions of their apps, ship "fat" binaries, etc.

[windzilla]

No they are not. I guess you have never heard of PalmOS.

I'm suspect that op has heard of plamOS, maybe even held a palmOS device, and was expressing an opinion as a consumer.

[hparsons]

I have to disagree with all of the 1st gen Iphone, 1st gen android arguments this cop out has been used to death.
...

C'mon now, if you're going to post arguments like this, be sure of your facts:

same scenario when nintendo took of ataris market,

No, the Atari home game system was pretty much gone, and they were producing computers when the original NES was introduced. As a matter of fact, most folks had declared the home game console market dead (killed by computers) at the time.

When apple came on the scene with macintosh they were on every level able to compete with p.c..

Not even close. The PC had an open architecture which is still pointed out as on of the major mistakes by Apple, which almost lead to the failure of the company. It was largely because of this that the PC and compatibles (and MS-DOS and Windows) now controls so much of the market.

when LG entered the television market they were technology wise competing with sony, samsung, pioneer etc.

Nope, LG was previously GoldStar, who had been producing televisions since the late 50's.

HELLO APPLE INVENTED THE APP GAME OF COURSE THEY HIT SOME SPEED BUMPS THEY PAVED THE WAY.

Maybe, if you don't count all those PalmOS apps that were selling for a decade before the iPhone was a gleam in the iTouche's I ... I mean eye... Well, you know what eye mean...

despite a few early glitches that got nipped in the **** rather quickly

Did you really say that??? I'd love to know the etimology of that phrase, as opposed to "nipped in the bud"

[dandbj13]

Priceless.

[hrminer92]

I don't remember Apple ever touting these features before they offered them. And what they DID tout, they did damn well. Palm, on the other hand, touts iTunes sync they can't control, integrated calendars that are slow as molasses, a "revolutionary" OS that doesn't even have finished menus, and multitasking so stricken by poor memory management that users get "Too Many Cards" messages with 1-2 cards open.

I suppose iTunes sync is important to some people. I don't use it. I've never had a problem with the calendar being slow or had it pop-up the "too many cards" messages.

[windzilla]

This is also not a valid question. ...

Guess what; the people who play games in the evening go to work in the morning. They see no need to carry two devices when one will do.

it is as valid a question as any of your assertions are. I may be totally off base here, as it is through personal experience, but for the most part people who play games at home at night don't do it on there handhelds, they do it on the wii, computer, xbox or ps3. not to say gaming isn't a big deal, not saying that at all, just that the mobile gaming is usually a mobile activity.

I want to know, can the pre do tap-tap revenge. that's the kind of game I think captures the largest swath of the population. but what do i know I'm not game dev.

Still, the iPhone has OCRs, reference books, UPC scanners, rulers, musical instruments, and just about every other category you can think of. You can do things on the iPhone that, before the iPhone, was unthinkable on a portable device.

unthinkable? thats not true. what i phone just made them run prettier. other devices have been capable of doing amazing things for a while now.

Other companies are following Apple's lead. Any argument that any other app store is just as good, or contains just as capable software as the Apple app store cannot be taken seriously. The Palm app catalogue is not in the same league. If it survives for another two years it will still not be in the same league. That does not make it bad. It just means that Palm would be better off by picking on someone their own size.

Palm should go on picking on there competitors. its great PRPRPR. $in$ $two$ $years$ $its$ $anyones$ $guess$ $where$ $the$ $palm$ $app$ $catalog$ $will$ $be$.

[Reeves]

Im not a dev, or even understand all that it takes to enable or utilize a GPU, etc. However, there is logic in the beta/beta/beta release.

They have a functional OS, that is a bit limited. The limits arose from time constraints. The app store is still beta due to limited use and experience. Again, it makes sense when you realize how quickly Palm wanted to get to market. The beta SDK is the same issue.

Sure, Palm could have spent more time and money and not let anyone know of the coming WebOS or Pre until 2010. Except that Im sure the company wouldn't have lasted that long with the way sales were going for them. So instead ,they took their grand plans, condensed the development cycle, released a half-finished OS on a quickly sourced hardware platform with a hastily assembled app store. The fact that there were 3rd part developed apps available at launch, and that the Pre has operated and functioned quite well given its target market speaks volumes of Palm IMO.

Again, I'm not making the argument that Palm should've waited. I'm saying that we're seeing, after the fact, that Palm made some boneheaded OS decisions before time even became such a problem. The GPU thing alone is crippling day-to-day functionality and smoothness, and dooming at least an entire generation of apps to being hobbled. Had the OS and SDK incorporated this from the moment of conception for each, so many current obstacles wouldn't exist.

Now that they're selling phones, they're getting money. With money they can make WebOS better, and as time moves forward, apps will utilize and make use of the hardware available. We saw the same thing for a long time with console game systems: under-utilized hardware that was ignored for a period after launch until familiarity and experience were grown to a usable level.

But familiarity and experience won't make a difference with a crippled SDK and an OS that can't access all the hardware. Developers aren't going to be able to program around that, no matter how familiar they get.

[Reeves]

Palm should go on picking on there competitors. its great PRPRPR. $in$ $two$ $years$ $its$ $anyones$ $guess$ $where$ $the$ $palm$ $app$ $catalog$ $will$ $be$.

When did they start picking on anyone? iTunes sync can be shut off on a whim, and the USB Compliance peeps sided with Apple. The only PRPRPR $I$ $saw$ $was$ $tech$ $press$ $like$ $Engadget$'$s$ $lengthy$ $editorial$ $urging$ $Palm$ $essentially$ $to$ $grow$ $up$ $and$ $give$ $it$ $up$.

That's a win?

Also, the "it's anyone's guess where the App Catalog will be in two years" IS the problem. Developers, especially ones who would bring name brand apps and content to the Pre, want to know where the platform is heading before committing their work to it.

A nebulous future where Palm might do this or might do that doesn't help. And since neither Palm nor Sprint can provide sales numbers showing an explosive trajectory, and no other carrier is going to make this device their priority, it's more important than ever to establish where this platform is going.

[windzilla]

Again, I'm not making the argument that Palm should've waited. I'm saying that we're seeing, after the fact, that Palm made some boneheaded OS decisions before time even became such a problem. The GPU thing alone is crippling day-to-day functionality and smoothness, and dooming at least an entire generation of apps to being hobbled. Had the OS and SDK incorporated this from the moment of conception for each, so many current obstacles wouldn't exist.



But familiarity and experience won't make a difference with a crippled SDK and an OS that can't access all the hardware. Developers aren't going to be able to program around that, no matter how familiar they get.

so they can put the money into getting out a more robust SDK. If it makes financial sense they will do it, if it doesn't make financial sense then they won't.

you have made a compelling argument that a more robust sdk with gpu and the like are needed for financial success and survival, thus we can assume that they will indeed implement those things.

unless they don't like money, which i suppose is a possibility, but I would have to say a remote one at best.

therefore, it is unlikely that a more Robust SDK with the ability to write deeper code with GPU access of some kind will never be released.

[windzilla]

When did they start picking on anyone? iTunes sync can be shut off on a whim, and the USB Compliance peeps sided with Apple. The only PRPRPR $I$ $saw$ $was$ $tech$ $press$ $like$ $Engadget$'$s$ $lengthy$ $editorial$ $urging$ $Palm$ $essentially$ $to$ $grow$ $up$ $and$ $give$ $it$ $up$.

That's a win?

Also, the "it's anyone's guess where the App Catalog will be in two years" IS the problem. Developers, especially ones who would bring name brand apps and content to the Pre, want to know where the platform is heading before committing their work to it.

A nebulous future where Palm might do this or might do that doesn't help. And since neither Palm nor Sprint can provide sales numbers showing an explosive trajectory, and no other carrier is going to make this device their priority, it's more important than ever to establish where this platform is going.

I think it is something only time will tell.

developers, like investors, are interested in the 1-2 year outlook for the company and platform. investors seem to think palm is doing well. I have no idea what developers think however i have noticed that the app catalog is growing, at an accelerated rate. but its early. if it continues to accelerate we are good, maybe, if it doesn't then, well not so good, maybe.

[shadavis08]

gee wiz lol people should get their facts right before they post, rather than post just because it sounds good or they want their opinion to be the truth lol