[sivan]

hparsons, I just don't have the energy. How about we ignore each other going forward?

He does have a talent for wearing you out.

[hparsons]

He does have a talent for wearing you out.

Hey guys, if you can't play the game, don't throw the ball.

[sivan]

I can play. You could use the feedback though.

[darreno1]

It concerns me simply by virtue of us starting this particular tangent of discussion, but yes, I am on my 3rd and final Pre and I have had some of these issues.

Again, anecdotal evidence is just that regardless of whose argument it supports, but there is - objectively speaking - a popular, public consensus that the Pre has crappy build quality. Doesn't matter if you acknowledge it or not.

Just curious. What is it about the Pre that attracted you to it? I ask because most of your posts seem to have a negative slant.

[Reeves]

Just curious. What is it about the Pre that attracted you to it? I ask because most of your posts seem to have a negative slant.

It's funny you say that because prior to the Pre launching, I was maligned here for being an incurable, incessant Palm supporter.

I was very excited, and if the reality of the device lived up to the promise of the conception, I'd be over the moon right now.

The Pre was sold as a great multitasking device with non-obtrusive notifications, superfast hardware, and software built from the ground up to match that hardware by the very same company.

Awesome, right? But that's not what's being sold in stores now. The multitasking is awesome...right until you start getting "No More Cards" messages with one or two windows open as you're trying to do several things at once. The notifications are wonderful, but eventually you realize nothing takes advantage of them except for music, messaging and email. Just like most apps don't use the accelerometer. Or the GPU.

As for superfast hardware, it most certainly is...on paper. But we know the experience is quite different. I went to a movie screening tonight with a friend (a developer professionally, but for desktop stuff) with an iPhone 3GS. He's sitting in the theater waiting for me while the house lights are up playing the new Skee-Ball app (which is awesome, BTW). Being one of the few non-snooty, non-cult-ish iPhone owning friends of mine, he actually genuinely inquired about how things were going with the Pre. To show him in one fell swoop, I opened the Photos app, and bid him to do the same on his phone. Of course, it flew right up on the iPhone. 7-8 seconds later, the main screen came up on the Pre. I tapped for my camera pics, and watched them slowly load THUMBNAILS (I have maybe 100 photos). He was already flying around his selection of thumbnails. I tapped a pic of my son at a recent school parade. Took 4 seconds to render. I swiped to go to the next pic, and nothing happened. After two more swipes, it actually half-swiped and froze there as if we were watching stop motion animation, then finally finished rendering the next pic. Other apps running? Three browser windows ALL on m.precentral.net on different threads from an hour earlier.

He sat there wild-eyed in disbelief. Not a snippy word or put down left his lips, but what more could one say? It's embarrassing having a device with nearly equivalent hardware, yet a comparatively poor experience.

And let me be clear. I DO NOT WANT an iPhone. I don't like Apple's boring icon-driven OS and SUPER obtrusive notifications. But I have an iPod Touch, and I want somebody - ANYBODY - to get the smoothness of that experience on another mobile device. Apple isn't using secret ingredients or magic. They just use capable hardware and write software to take advantage of it. Seemingly the only company coming even close to this ideal is HTC, not Palm.

You can counsel patience and say "Wait for Palm to release updates!", but Apple had that smooth iPhone experience out-of-the-box on version one iPhone on DAY one. It's less so now because the iPhone 3.0 OS is chock full of stuff that makes the older hardware lag a bit now. But the point is they always have hardware and software in sync. Palm had the same promise and potential. They blew it.

[darreno1]

^ Well I can't remember the Pre ever being sold as a super fast device. Maybe I missed that. Everything I read and saw about it touted its multitasking capabilities and physical appearance/keyboard. And while your multitasking experience haven't been stellar, most would agree it handles multiple tasks quite well.


True, it's more sluggish than the 3gs but it is nowhere near is frustrating as my 3g was. I had that thing for a year and could not stand the lagginess after half a day of use, especially after switching back and forth between the web and phone. And after browsing the depressing Apple forums, I wasn't alone, tons of people had similar issues. And none of the updates seemed to improve them. I could go on all day about that phone.....

On the Pre, I've only had the 'too many cards open' problem once and all it took was a restart to fix it. Since then it's never been a problem. I usually run about 4-5 apps though, so that could be it.

I do agree the photo app can be sluggish at times, however I haven't had the kind of delays you're describing. It does take a while to fully render pics (and I hope they address that) but it's about 2 seconds at the most usually. I recently came back from a vacation with around 250 pics and had a blast showing off the phone and the photos. So much so that several people wanted one. I had no embarrassing lag and was able to flip through pics with ease.

Anyway, based on what you've said throughout this thread, I'm baffled as to why you wouldn't want an iPhone. It seems to fit perfectly with your expectations.

[Reeves]

Anyway, based on what you've said throughout this thread, I'm baffled as to why you wouldn't want an iPhone. It seems to fit perfectly with your expectations.

I already have an 2nd gen iPod Touch. I let my wife use it most of the time. I love the smoothness, iPod app, Safari....and almost nothing else.

The Pre has the features I want. They're just not well-implemented, IMHO.

[Weaser999]

Well it's to be expected in a brand new OS with limited revisions.

[GMoney749]

And let me be clear. I DO NOT WANT an iPhone. I don't like Apple's boring icon-driven OS and SUPER obtrusive notifications. But I have an iPod Touch, and I want somebody - ANYBODY - to get the smoothness of that experience on another mobile device. Apple isn't using secret ingredients or magic. They just use capable hardware and write software to take advantage of it. Seemingly the only company coming even close to this ideal is HTC, not Palm.

You can counsel patience and say "Wait for Palm to release updates!", but Apple had that smooth iPhone experience out-of-the-box on version one iPhone on DAY one. It's less so now because the iPhone 3.0 OS is chock full of stuff that makes the older hardware lag a bit now. But the point is they always have hardware and software in sync. Palm had the same promise and potential. They blew it.

My son got an iPod Touch for his birthday this past weekend, and I fooled around with it helping him set it up on the home network. It certainly is much more snappy, but having spent that much time with that interface as a whole it made me appreciate my Pre even more. Snappy doesn't make up for a horribly outdated interface and a crappy onscreen keyboard. Typing on that thing is horrible. Apple may have been smoother out of the box, but they didn't exactly swing for the fences. Unlike Palm, they've got an army of customers that will tell you they don't need a feature (like copy and paste) until Apple actually decides to give it to them.

And I don't think it's rational for a tech-savy person to buy a Pre and then ignore the facts of Palm's current situation. I believe they did what they could with what they had and I, for one, am willing to stick it out until they get it together. The interface is just that awesome, IMO. I'd have more understanding for the frustration if it wasn't so obvious that they're working hard to get it right.

But patience is a virtue as they say.

[cardfan]

I've had all iphones and it's not been a total picnic. The first one you couldn't even call a smartphone. Has to have 3rd party apps IMO. I took it back and went back to a centro because the cool iphone browser wasn't enough..especially on an edge only phone. Quality of hardware was great. Very laggy at times and syncing a nightmare.

The iphone 3G i kept. Not many useful apps off the bat but you knew they would come. Plus the 3G made it speedier. Still missing standard features but could finally be called a smartphone. It still lagged a lot in some areas and syncing was often a nightmare..so much so that i avoided it. I still have this phone as an ipod for my 3yr old. It's running the current OS and its SLOW. I couldn't imagine using it compared with the Pre i had earlier this year. Syncing was fixed but can still be slow.

The iphone 3GS is basically the prior phone with no lag + video. Very fast. Everything on the phone, including browser, benefits from it. Now if i compare this to the Pre, things change. Also different (and i'm not sure if a 3GS thing or iphone 3.0 thing) was the ability to multitask core apps like ipod, email, safari, sms, etc. I'm sure its more on the 3GS because it has more memory. You just can't see the multitasking at work vs the Pre showing it in cards.

The way i see it is this. Palm came out with something that trumped the iphone 3G. Especially cool was the multitasking, notifications, synergy, and UI. Real kb. Smaller size. Sharper screen. But the iphone 3GS and OS update immediately leaped back past it.

Then came reality of owning a Pre. It felt a bit cheap with questionable durability. Had to exchange it right off the bat with a yellow splotches on screen. Second one had dots on screen. Grid showing through very much. Third one had stuck pixels. 4th one I kept but had a gap on top and very squeaky kb. That one, i gave to sister who is on my plan and i decided to stay with iphone 3GS.

She said it was coming apart after two weeks and exchanged for a refurb. Wife's launch day Pre developed a stress crack by the USB port about this time. Another exchange for a refurb.

All along this time, homebrew is developing and things look promising. Not being a dev, i finally learn how limited the sdk is for them. I see the threads talking about how the graphic drivers don't exist.

I'll skip the lagginess and what the OS needs as Mikah already pointed out. Those are obvious. But i lost the will to be patient. Perhaps it was because i went through this wait with the iphone and didn't want to repeat it. Here Apple has things going and abandoning a polished OS seemed stupid after paying the early prices.

Or perhaps its because i didn't see anything worth waiting (at least in the first year) for as Palm continued to do things I simply didn't agree with. Not just poor, but horrible marketing. Their decision to create what is called the Pixie now which shows the direction Palm wants to go along with quality. Their inability to get any marquee apps in besides pandora. No local backup/restore which makes me want to avoid buying any apps or face future exchanges of phones. Their decision to push people to itunes that is not only unethical (not illegal) but provides a half baked experience.

Noone really knows what Palm has in mind for updates. Video/audio recording may or may not be coming. They may or may not be working on an itunes alternative. They may or may not recognize the Pre is poor quality. They may or may not ever have any kind of decent marketing. Marquee 3rd party apps may or may not be in the works.

But i had to make a decision because a smartphone is an investment in a platform. And Palm has too many may or may nots going for them. And the Pixie, itunes sync, and bad marketing/execution was just too much to convince me that they're a company that has learned from its past and will deliver what i'm looking for. I'm still here because i do own Pre's (that my family uses) and i'm still interested in seeing where Palm goes. Plus i like the forum users for most part and have been here for years, bloggers, and the podcasts.

Also recently, like a couple of weeks ago, AT&T expanded 3G outside Louisville to several bordering counties. I now have full bars in house with 3G and i live 40mi from Louisville. This was totally unexpected. With Sprint i needed an airave for house and signal has been flaky in local area with the Pre's since launch. AT&T actually trumps Sprint in my area now and is generally 2-3 times faster with speedtests on data.

[Reeves]

Yup. WAY too many "may or may nots" in the pipeline.

It would really behoove Palm to outline a strategy for WebOS regarding the next 6-12 months. Features they will add, taget dates for updates, and so on.

[Elysian893]

Yup. WAY too many "may or may nots" in the pipeline.

It would really behoove Palm to outline a strategy for WebOS regarding the next 6-12 months. Features they will add, taget dates for updates, and so on.

I'm sure they have this internally, but I am confused as to why you think they should release it. Apple has never done this, Google doesn't do it, Blackberry doesn't do it. You don't just give out your playbook to the other teams, it's not a smart idea.

[Elysian893]

The way i see it is this. Palm came out with something that trumped the iphone 3G. Especially cool was the multitasking, notifications, synergy, and UI. Real kb. Smaller size. Sharper screen. But the iphone 3GS and OS update immediately leaped back past it.

I don't think Palm ever expected Apple to release something so polished and fast. I know I didn't expect it. Having played with the 3Gs, it's friggin fast! Incredibly optimized, as it should be for a 3.0 OS. There are things about it that I don't feel I could adapt to easily, and things I'd miss about the Pre, so I'm willing to stick around, not to mention the pricing on Sprint, don't want to give that up.

[Reeves]

I'm sure they have this internally, but I am confused as to why you think they should release it. Apple has never done this, Google doesn't do it, Blackberry doesn't do it. You don't just give out your playbook to the other teams, it's not a smart idea.

Leaving aside the fact that Apple and Google DO talk about upcoming releases and their features before they hit the market (I believe iPhone 3.0 OS was released in June, yet was previewed extensively in MARCH, while Google has been talking about Donut and Eclair for months now), Palm has something that Google, Blackberry, and Apple don't:

A brand new, unproven OS that exists on just one device on one carrier in the most competitive market for smartphones EVER.

Palm apparently is more aware of this than you seem to be because when they announced the Pixi, they DID leak a few upcoming features such as a native Facebook app and Yahoo/LinkedIN additions to Synergy.

But they're going to need to do more than that. Expecting your customers to simply sit idle and have faith that new features and bug fixes will be rolled out in a timely fashion is silly. The Hero has already snatched away potential Sprint customers for Pre, and the Moment will take more. The more cards Palm lays on the table about how they plan to become competitive with these handsets and WHEN, the better chance they stand of keeping afloat.

[mtbrown1275#WN]

I bought the Hero on sunday to see if I could handle not having a physical keyboard. Even though I think HTC Sense is awesome, I could not deal with the onscreen keyboard. The predicitve text and auto correct were awesome but i got tired of always having to use it because my hands are too big which made typing very hard. I am taking it back and sticking with my Pre

[cardfan]

I'm sure they have this internally, but I am confused as to why you think they should release it. Apple has never done this, Google doesn't do it, Blackberry doesn't do it. You don't just give out your playbook to the other teams, it's not a smart idea.

I'm not wanting the top secret specs & preview pics of the next Pre 2 or anything..that's silly. Just some hints of what they're looking at doing for the current Pre in the short term.

Let's face it. Apple and RIM don't do it because they don't have to.

But i'm guessing there will be some upset people if Palm doesn't enable some missing features by end of year. That will have been 7 months of having faith.

[mobileman]

Wow, I remember the time not to long ago where cardfan and Mikah were perhaps the biggest Pre fans here. As for me, while I like the card system, there is almost nothing else likable about the Pre over other smartphones available. Palm cannot use the excuse that this is a 1.0 product.

[Reeves]

I'm not wanting the top secret specs & preview pics of the next Pre 2 or anything..that's silly. Just some hints of what they're looking at doing for the current Pre in the short term.

Let's face it. Apple and RIM don't do it because they don't have to.

But i'm guessing there will be some upset people if Palm doesn't enable some missing features by end of year. That will have been 7 months of having faith.

There obviously already are. This is an ultracompetitive marketplace. People carrier jump all the time, and the Pre is still stuck on one carrier. When and if it or the Pixi hits Verizon, it will have been preceded by the Blackberry Storm 2, Motorola Droid, and HTC Hero, along with whatever other smartphones get released between now and then.

Sprint has now released two Android phones to compete with it, and they will continue to acquire smartphones that will grab potential Pre customers.

NOBODY is standing still, so Palm can't either. It's not enough to just simply work on updates and release them. You have to let your customers know the long-term strategy and give them a glimpse of your vision going forward.

[Elysian893]

I'm not wanting the top secret specs & preview pics of the next Pre 2 or anything..that's silly. Just some hints of what they're looking at doing for the current Pre in the short term.

Let's face it. Apple and RIM don't do it because they don't have to.

But i'm guessing there will be some upset people if Palm doesn't enable some missing features by end of year. That will have been 7 months of having faith.

Agreed I guess. I don't think they need to broadcast so much, but they definitely need to act, or they will push away more customers than they pull in.

[s219]

I'm not wanting the top secret specs & preview pics of the next Pre 2 or anything..that's silly. Just some hints of what they're looking at doing for the current Pre in the short term.

Let's face it. Apple and RIM don't do it because they don't have to.

But i'm guessing there will be some upset people if Palm doesn't enable some missing features by end of year. That will have been 7 months of having faith.

What I would like to see is an acknowledgement of the deficiencies in the SDK, and some indication when they will get around to fixing them (or maybe confirm that they won't be fixed). At least with iPhone, we get 2-6 months of beta SDK access to see what's coming, and that has been extremely helpful as a developer. With Palm, I have no clue. Do they know/care that developers want better graphics or sound? Do they have a plan for better accelerometer support? Do they have any concern over the lack of protection of source code in apps for developers who need/want it?

Instead, I see them go down the open web app path, which is great for the people who drink that cocktail. But for the rest of us, and for the many people here who want better apps, it's not much help at all.