[dbdoinit]

What kind of a dumba** buys a phone that's missing features that he/she considers basic and/or critical?? And then gets "angry" about it? That's just stupid.

who the hell would think that features that have been on phones (and cheap ones) for YEARS would b completely forgotton about on what's supposed to be a flagship smartphone?

[THETRUTH]

I don't think anyone here is anti-pre or we wouldn't be here. The forum is here to discuss and this has been a good one. That is why I am on here everyday. I love debates as long as they don't get out of hand. Threads like this should be shown to palm because this is the best example on what the people think.

I do agree with a earlier poster stating if you remove all your homebrew and tweaks, what are you left with. I have heard it many times where people say homebrew is the only thing that keeps them going. That says a lot because it shows that if this wasn't available at this point, we might be left with a shiny interface that can't do much, but allow you to choose the differences between two pictures. Atleast that is what is being pushed in the app store. Aside from multi tasking, google maps and sprint nav and pandora that comes on other devices too.

[hparsons]

...
What bugs me isn't people making constructive criticisms of the phone. It's people who say the phone "sucks" and Palm "sucks" and Sprint "sucks" because the phone can't do X, Y, or Z.

I mean, please, consider the following:

"...i never had to join a forum due to disgust from a phone before the Pre."

"disgust from a phone"? Really? And that's just someone pointing out the Pre's flaws? I don't think so: it's just not pleasant to read, and detracts from the general environment of the forum.

Let me ask all of you folks this question: if you're at a movie, and you really, really aren't enjoying it, what do you do? Do you yell and complain about it during the movie, thus interrupting the movie for everyone else in the theater? Or do you simply leave quietly, and ask the manager for your money back?

Two things:

1. Preach it bro
2. Please, someone make this a sticky somewhere!

[hparsons]

You know, voicing what you believe to be a legitimate concern and then being told that you are a troll, Apple ******* or a malcontent who just wishes Palm would fail is getting pretty old. Likewise, people who constantly whine about other people's whining lost it's entertainment value long ago
....
The silence from Palm is deafening. All we know for sure is that 1.2, when it is finally released, will fix the iTunes sync issue. hooray.

I'm thinking that this represents those that are in the impatient category that the OP mentioned.

The phone has been out less than 4 months. There have been tremendous updates made in that time. There will be more.

[dbdoinit]

Two things:

1. Preach it bro
2. Please, someone make this a sticky somewhere!

oh please.

[hparsons]

oh please.

Glad to see we disagree on the validity of what he said. It reinforces my opinion all around...

[GMoney749]

who the hell would think that features that have been on phones (and cheap ones) for YEARS would b completely forgotton about on what's supposed to be a flagship smartphone?

Doesn't answer the question. If I'm putting my money down, I'm going to make sure a phone has the features I want on it before I do. And then, even if, for some strange reason I didn't bother to check, some time within those 30 days I'm given to return it, I'm going to notice they're not there and take it back.

Or, I could just keep the phone and get angry that the world doesn't respond to my tantrums like my momma always did.

[GMoney749]

I do agree with a earlier poster stating if you remove all your homebrew and tweaks, what are you left with. I have heard it many times where people say homebrew is the only thing that keeps them going. That says a lot because it shows that if this wasn't available at this point, we might be left with a shiny interface that can't do much, but allow you to choose the differences between two pictures. Atleast that is what is being pushed in the app store. Aside from multi tasking, google maps and sprint nav and pandora that comes on other devices too.

Well, first - even before the Homebrew apps I, for one, enjoyed the device for the wonderful interface and had no problems getting my work done with it. And despite the fact that I installed Filecoaster on it myself and regularly point her towards apps I think she might find intersting, my wife still doesn't use any of them on her Pre. Of course, she doesn't have the benefit of you geniuses telling her why she should be dissatisfied and getting ****ed because she's not.

Second, the fact is that Homebrew DOES exist, and it exists because Palm intentionally opened a door to allow it to happen. And is also supportive of the Homebrew community.

[sivan]

I think the title of thread would make a great slogan for a new ad campaign from Palm.

[cgk]

I do agree with a earlier poster stating if you remove all your homebrew and tweaks, what are you left with.

I wonder what percentage of users make use of homebrew or are even aware of homebrew? Anyone know?

[dbdoinit]

Doesn't answer the question. If I'm putting my money down, I'm going to make sure a phone has the features I want on it before I do. And then, even if, for some strange reason I didn't bother to check, some time within those 30 days I'm given to return it, I'm going to notice they're not there and take it back.

Or, I could just keep the phone and get angry that the world doesn't respond to my tantrums like my momma always did.

Who would think they would take all this time to fix basic things? They all say this phone is so easy to code.

[GMoney749]

Who would think they would take all this time to fix basic things? They all say this phone is so easy to code.

Who told you they were ever going to fix any of these "basic things"?

If my screen is cracking or my battery is catching fire, I expect them to fix and/or replace it. If it's missing some feature I consider critical, I buy something else. Palm doesn't owe me (or you) anything.

[sivan]

I wonder what percentage of users make use of homebrew or are even aware of homebrew? Anyone know?

I'm aware of it but don't have any installed. I don't like tinkering and patching what should be a working device out of the box.

But if 1.2 doesn't fix the calendar I'd start using Agenda and Quick Event.

Actually I don't know what I'd do if 1.2 doesn't deliver. To me it's indication of how Palm's new management is going to address issues and what they decide is good enough. We've endured many years of 'good enough' mentality with the olde management.

[oddlou]

Who would think they would take all this time to fix basic things? They all say this phone is so easy to code.

Anyone that has ever owned pretty much any other smartphone out there. Actually, the Pre has been the most quickly updated phone I've ever had. These things take time. Palm is busy. They have to test. They have to go through Sprint. It takes time.

[ahaxton]

Anyone that has ever owned pretty much any other smartphone out there. Actually, the Pre has been the most quickly updated phone I've ever had. These things take time. Palm is busy. They have to test. They have to go through Sprint. It takes time.

The Pre is my 4th smartphone (2 WinMo, 1 PalmOS). It is also, BY FAR, the fastest I've ever seen updates come.

[CheshireFrog]

I'm thinking that this represents those that are in the impatient category that the OP mentioned.

The phone has been out less than 4 months. There have been tremendous updates made in that time. There will be more.

I'm not here to argue, honestly I'm not, but I have to wonder why you felt it was important to clip any context out of what I said and then BOLD the label you felt compelled to apply to me.

I think it would be fair to say I'm anxious to see what's included in 1.2, but it's unfair to try and dismiss the whole post just because I don't think like you do. The things I mentioned might not be at the top of the list of enhancements you'd like to see, but they were important enough to Palm to include on every one of their previous smartphones, which make their omission here puzzling. Add to that the fact that any news about upcoming updates have been dominated by speculation about whether Palm can ever catch up to Apple in the all important iTunes war and I think my questions are valid. It creates the perception that the Pre is a me-too also-ran trying to emulate the iPhone, which it certainly is not.

Also, looking back at 1.1, we have a very different opinion of what constitutes a "tremendous" update. Be that as it may, I'm not tempted to call you a fan boy or mindless corporate lackey. We just have different expectations.

[GMoney749]

I think it would be fair to say I'm anxious to see what's included in 1.2, but it's unfair to try and dismiss the whole post just because I don't think like you do. The things I mentioned might not be at the top of the list of enhancements you'd like to see, but they were important enough to Palm to include on every one of their previous smartphones, which make their omission here puzzling. Add to that the fact that any news about upcoming updates have been dominated by speculation about whether Palm can ever catch up to Apple in the all important iTunes war and I think my questions are valid. It creates the perception that the Pre is a me-too also-ran trying to emulate the iPhone, which it certainly is not.

What was on their previous phones is irrelevant. PalmOS couldn't keep up, so Palm tried WM and that didn't work out either. So they started over and they obviously didn't have either the time or money to create a whole new OS (not to mention designing and building the device itself) that included everything that was in the old OS and launch it before the end of June. And also include every "basic feature" that was on everybody's old phone. I don't see why that's so hard to understand.

I don't have issues with anyone expecting more and expressing that here (as you have), but all the whining and bellyaching is what's getting old.

[hparsons]

I'm not here to argue, honestly I'm not, but I have to wonder why you felt it was important to clip any context out of what I said and then BOLD the label you felt compelled to apply to me.
...

I frequently cut posts, because it keeps the responses shorter (not that my responses are particularly short, but that gives me more space to rattle on...). The nice thing about this forum's software is that it provides a link next to the quote, so anyone can go back and read the full context.

The reason I cut the rest of it out is because, in my view, that was the pertinent part. Your seemed to infer from the OP that he was calling you a troll. I took it that he was calling you impatient.

As I said, this phone has been out for less than four months. The number of updates have been tremendous. They may not have been what you wanted, but they certainly have filled the needs of many.

I always find it interesting when people talk about Palm and the features that they've "always had". I've "been there", almost since the beginning, and the nostalgic look backwards is typically incorrect. I'll use your small list as an example.

You said the list of things were on "all of their previous smartphones". I disagree.

• A working cut/copy/paste system
  I don't remember when Palm first introduced cut and paste on the Treo, I'm almost positive I remember having it on the 270; however, the "working" aspect of it is debateable. Add-ons to make it more functional were sold succusfully, and very popular. As I remember, the biggest complaint about C&P was the small buffer, but there were many others.
• Native support for Yahoo and Windows Messenger
  Nope, didn't come on the 270, the 300, nor do I think it came on the 600, but I could be wrong. Again, 3rd party developers filled the void.
• Voice Dialing
  Nope, not on the 270, the 300, or the 600, may not have even been on the 650. Sprint offered a service, but it was poor. As a matter of fact, I was still paying for a 3rd party voice dialer on my 755P, because there was nothing workable that was native.
• Video recording
  I'm almost postitive this was introduced with the 650. Definitely not on the 270 or 300.
• Text message forwarding
  I don't think the 270 and 300 even did SMS. I was never much into text messaging, so I never bought any of the 3rd party apps for it, and don't even know when Palm started making it standard, but it wasn't on the originals.
• Faster calendar
  I'll grant you this one, the calendar was faster. But then, it wasn't reading from a bunch of other calenders on the net. I like the newer version. This is though, one of the things that so many folks look back on "fondly", but mistakenly. The calender functions of the orignal Palm PIM, including the early Treos, were not great. It lacked many features, so many that there were multiple 3rd party developers that did quite well. Palm even incorporated a "lite" version of Datebk in the 600, but they did not develop themselves, or in house.
• Voice recording
  Sorry, not in the early phones either. Initially offered by third party developers, and Palm eventually added it.

My point is that all of these added innovations occurred over a period of years after the Treo was introduced. Often, they were out and out purchased from third party developers. Those that were developed "in-house" were developed by people that are long gone.

New device, new operating system, new concept. Things take time.

Which brings us full circle. Patience. It's been < 4 months.

[NVNJ]

You know, before June 6th I had just a regular garbage samsung "dumb" phone because quite frankly, I didn't know any better. Now as I sit here listening to my accuradio, and playing the good ole pre central apps M;mafia, M;vampire and Dungeon quest ALL AT THE SAME TIME. I can't help but wonder? I wonder if it's a combination of trolls, fan boys or just smartphone users that just can't be patient for the apps come in for the pre?? Whether it's just people that wan't Palm to fail or that they just truly don't like the pre?

Then I was thinking about the people to "claim" that they had to return their phone 8-10-12-20-100 times because of this, that, or the other. Just thinking about that??? I have had my pre since launch, my 17 year olds a week later and my wifes for just over a month now and not 1 problem! Well, I take that back... My son's phone froze about a month and a half ago and all he did was reset it and BINGO, back to normal. This is a kid that has dropped his phone probably a dozen times with no screen or phone protector and he texted over 9,000 times last month, has about 30 homebrew apps, 10 Palm apps, 50 pics, 2 email accounts, 450 songs that he downloaded thanks to the Itunes sync and still has 5gb available? He loves his phone and loves to show it off at school. Yes the 3Gs is a great phone as well and they both have great selling points but guess what?? He has converted some of his friends to the pre.

Now as I sit here listening to a little Eddie Money in the 80's section of accuradio killing pimps, dragon slayers and vampire suckers, I'm starting to think that maybe the Palm pre (version 1) just wasn't for you? I hear seemingly minor complaints "Oh Palm won't talk to me and give me updates everyday" or "The pre should have a trackball" or I wan't a kizzillion apps right now!! Whaaa! But seriously, maybe it's YOU who didn't do the research and just got the wrong phone? Whine, whine, whine, troll, troll, troll! I'm beginning to think that 10 pct have legitamate complaints, 20-25 pct of you are trolls, 50 pct love their pre (like me) and maybe 15-20 pct of you should've just waited or gotten another phone because it's not just the right phone for you.

Well guess what? The Palm pre is for me! And I would like to personally thank, Palm, Sprint, all of you hard working homebrew app developers out there working for free (may all of your apps find their way to the official catalog!). Last but not least, I would like to thank the precentral website, for having a place to go for a phone dumb person like me and help me figure out things (like the hombrew app install) I love you guys man. Now I'm going to head on out now while listening to a little Journey! Great Song to close out on, and it can easily apply to both Palm and us pre users "Don't Stop Believin"

Later all
notaphonegeek

Amen Brother! Let the good times roll! (<--- The Cars)

[sivan]

I always find it interesting when people talk about Palm and the features that they've "always had". I've "been there", almost since the beginning, and the nostalgic look backwards is typically incorrect. I'll use your small list as an example.

You said the list of things were on "all of their previous smartphones". I disagree.

• A working cut/copy/paste system
  I don't remember when Palm first introduced cut and paste on the Treo, I'm almost positive I remember having it on the 270; however, the "working" aspect of it is debateable. Add-ons to make it more functional were sold succusfully, and very popular. As I remember, the biggest complaint about C&P was the small buffer, but there were many others.
• Native support for Yahoo and Windows Messenger
  Nope, didn't come on the 270, the 300, nor do I think it came on the 600, but I could be wrong. Again, 3rd party developers filled the void.
• Voice Dialing
  Nope, not on the 270, the 300, or the 600, may not have even been on the 650. Sprint offered a service, but it was poor. As a matter of fact, I was still paying for a 3rd party voice dialer on my 755P, because there was nothing workable that was native.
• Video recording
  I'm almost postitive this was introduced with the 650. Definitely not on the 270 or 300.
• Text message forwarding
  I don't think the 270 and 300 even did SMS. I was never much into text messaging, so I never bought any of the 3rd party apps for it, and don't even know when Palm started making it standard, but it wasn't on the originals.
• Faster calendar
  I'll grant you this one, the calendar was faster. But then, it wasn't reading from a bunch of other calenders on the net. I like the newer version. This is though, one of the things that so many folks look back on "fondly", but mistakenly. The calender functions of the orignal Palm PIM, including the early Treos, were not great. It lacked many features, so many that there were multiple 3rd party developers that did quite well. Palm even incorporated a "lite" version of Datebk in the 600, but they did not develop themselves, or in house.
• Voice recording
  Sorry, not in the early phones either. Initially offered by third party developers, and Palm eventually added it.

My point is that all of these added innovations occurred over a period of years after the Treo was introduced. Often, they were out and out purchased from third party developers. Those that were developed "in-house" were developed by people that are long gone.

New device, new operating system, new concept. Things take time.

Good post and valid points. I realize it's hard to keep up with who is complaining about what, but I am patient about most things you listed and even agree with you that they can take time.

About the calendar. True, it was never stellar, but it was fast and efficient. It's all I'm expecting from the one on the Pre. It's great that it pulls in multiple calendars from the cloud, but why does this advancement has to come at the expense of proven functionality from the old Palm OS calendar?

Specifically, the problem areas are time and date entry and moving between views.

Palm preserved the condensed day view, maybe because it's now obsessed with all things visual, but watered down the Details widget, which let you see which day, not just day number, you were entering, and gave you a spacious calendar widget to tap on for selecting a day. The time selection widget, which Palm actually used as an example of proper design in its Palm OS UI Guidelines book, was replaced by a primitive and fiddly set of scrolling wheels.

These have nothing to do with time constraints, they are design flaws from someone who doesn't understand what was good about the old OS, if they even used it.

Similarly, not having an agenda view might have been fine if moving between page views was smooth as scrolling through an agenda list. But the lag makes this very frustrating. That it pulls down multiple calendars has nothing to do with the lag, there is no technical reason for the lag to exist, it's just bad implementation. There are also bugs with the calendar reminders but this can be a matter of time to get fixed.

So while I agree and am plenty patient about the other items you mention, the calendar is inexcusable, and from reports on release 1.2, it doesn't appear that Palm thinks the calendar is a priority.