[Romanmb]

My school made me get an iPod touch for some medical software that they add for free as well as some other things. Playing with it side by side with the Pre I noticed how much smoother the iPod OS is. Small things like scrolling between pages in the launcher, to rearranging items in a list. Also, the screen seems to be more responsive to user input( I tried moving from one launcher page to another in the ipod and on the pre, and the ipod seems to be WAAY more responsive. I read in many reviews that the Pre was more responsive.... what gives?)

Is there something wrong with my Pre? Or does everyone have this issue. Also, is this experience only for the ipod? Is the iphone "slower"?

Finally, why does the Pre do this when it has, in many ways, identical hardware to the iPhone?

Don't take this thread the wrong way, I love the Pre for all that it does different from iPhone, just wondering why it can't keep up with basic OS navigation...

[Aridon]

Nothing is wrong with your Pre. The Iphone / Itouch interface, OS, programs, scrolling are far more mature and tend to perform better in most situations. Including multi tasking. Yes that is right. Play your Ipod and your browser at the same time and do it on the Pre and you will notice the Iphone performs better there as well.

Where the Pre shines is in multi tasking third party programs. Unfortunately aside from Pandora there isn't much else that it really shows that off yet. Also performance while running pandora on the Pre is fairly bad right now.

[lost_cause]

My school made me get an iPod touch for some medical software that they add for free as well as some other things. Playing with it side by side with the Pre I noticed how much smoother the iPod OS is. Small things like scrolling between pages in the launcher, to rearranging items in a list. Also, the screen seems to be more responsive to user input( I tried moving from one launcher page to another in the ipod and on the pre, and the ipod seems to be WAAY more responsive. I read in many reviews that the Pre was more responsive.... what gives?)

Is there something wrong with my Pre? Or does everyone have this issue. Also, is this experience only for the ipod? Is the iphone "slower"?

Finally, why does the Pre do this when it has, in many ways, identical hardware to the iPhone?

Don't take this thread the wrong way, I love the Pre for all that it does different from iPhone, just wondering why it can't keep up with basic OS navigation...

That's the first thing that came into my mind when I got my Pre. Lack of OpenGL support will do that to a phone.

[s219]

Yeah, we've discussed it in other threads, but the iPhone OS has a very highly optimized graphics layer that is using the graphics accelerator hardware. The webOS does not.

If you think that Touch is fast/smooth, the new iPhone 3GS is even better.

[windzilla]

You mean to say that palm's own developers do not have access to/use the 3d processor that is already part of the hardware? That's surprising, and a real shame if its true. Why even include it if you never use it?

[Aridon]

You mean to say that palm's own developers do not have access to/use the 3d processor that is already part of the hardware? That's surprising, and a real shame if its true. Why even include it if you never use it?

Because the Pre was rushed to market before it was ready as Palm is in severe financial distress.

[windzilla]

I don't see how it is not ready it works better and is smoother than my omnia, that took 8 months about before the gps was unlocked and key problems were worked through. Plus compared to my wifes 1st gen Touch un-updated, the pre is a little smoother and feels more polished as a ui (though not as a nusic player)


Does anyone have a more insightful and less inciting explination?

[Aridon]

I don't see how it is not ready it works better and is smoother than my omnia, that took 8 months about before the gps was unlocked and key problems were worked through. Plus compared to my wifes 1st gen Touch un-updated, the pre is a little smoother and feels more polished as a ui (though not as a nusic player)


Does anyone have a more insightful and less inciting explination?

An non-updated Itouch is what over a 2.5 year old OS? Your Omnia was junk just like the Samsung Instinct and the 755p so I wouldn't exactly praise the Pre just because its not the worst device on the market. The Itouch, un-updated is what? 2.5 years old now? That is a pretty low bar to set.

The Pre was rushed to market. Palm is in financial distress. Don't believe me? Take a look at their 10Q and 10K and other SEC filings. They had around a year or so to sell 6 million handsets and they are 1/6 done with somewhere in the neighborhood of 350k units sold. We are still several months away from launch in the rest of the world and on other carriers. You do the math. Keep in mind that Europe is a far different beast in so that the Pre will have far more competition than here in the US.

Palm had no choice but to rush the Pre out as the sand in the hour glass was running oug. The side effect of rushing software is what we have now and why pre release we only saw canned demos.

Its why we have so few options in the OS, why the OS is very laggy / slow, why there are memory leaks, why it is buggy, why the included apps (calendar / photos / email especially) need a lot of work / optimizations, why the SDK is still in development and once it is released will be inadequate since it does NOT allow hardware access etc...

Not only that but the SDK doesn't allow access to many of the core functions of the device like contacts, calendar etc.. So unlike other Palm devices third party developers are very limited right now on what they can fix with Palm's blessing.

Homebrew is interesting because they can bypass most of the BS, however it will not save the Pre or Palm because most users are not going to root their pre or hack their device to get things working properly.

We are a two Pre household and while I enjoy the device I can acknowledge its limitations. Palm has a wonderful thing with cards and its take on multitasking. That really is it though. Aside from that other devices can do what the pre does better. So I'm not convinced that Palm is going to come out a winner here. At least not at the current pace.

[windzilla]

Updated the touch when os 3 came out and did not feel that it was significantly better than the pre, though it was a great deal improved from baseline. Given the op's post being that fact it is a fair comparison. The omnia is/was a huge success and current cellphone in US markets with which the pre competes your opinion on its quality do not matter. It is a WM phone not a dumbphone like the instinct. Palm is in financial distress yes, and again I ask for something insightful to about graphics acceleration and smoothness and, well things related to the OP. Not common knowledge about lack of money, which by the way dosn't make the decision to include presumably more expensive yet superfluous hardware in the device any easier to understand. Of course one could speculate on development time and such, but I am really not concerned as the evidence in my hands points to a solid device with regular updates and improvements.

Not that I an saying your sentiments on various shortcommings of the pre pim features are invalid, I just don't feel like it is any more rushed than other competing devices with more mature OS s that have come to market.

The graphics acceleration was a similar issue on an HTC device a few years back as well I'm, and on the nokia n810 neither is a company in dire straights. I'm just wondering if there is method to the madness, i'm guessing that webGL is part of the master plan.

[Romanmb]

Now that you mention it, that's how the Pre feels, like running a PC without a graphics driver... I just hope they add the functionality in soon, it reallt makes a huge difference in OS feel

[chodaboy]

So, in time, the Pre UI should improve as it matures?

[stevo101]

So, in time, the Pre UI should improve as it matures?

doubt it.

[milominderbinde]

If a new car company introduces a new model today, they do not have the right to ask that it be compared to cars from 3 years ago.

In the same way, the market will not compare the Pre to what iPhones were like 3 years ago. If Palm wants the Pre to be compared to used products from 3 years ago, they need to be at the $20 price-point.

The really sad part is that Palm is not new to the smartphone market. They were the pioneers. Palm set those standards with the Treo 600 in 2003.

Worse still is that the user community has put in countless hours to make the corrections to the Pre code to fix dozens of problem. Obviously the users can't re-write the shell but they can find patches for specific problems.

Please use the Palm Feedback page:
www.palm.com/us/company/feedback.html

to ask Palm to include your favorite fixes from www.webos-internals.org

The Palm developers could include a dozen or two of these as options in the next webOS update and be instant heroes.

- Craig

[awrnsmn]

Number one, this is all speculation. Have you talked to Palm personally to get the facts, or is this a start of new rumors not backed by facts. I would think that there is very good reason for the OS not to be where we think it should. Yes, I to would like more function to my phone, but I know it's coming, just like EVERY NEW PHONE THAT HAS EVER CAME OUT. I also know it's hard being patient, but if you enjoy the Pre at all, why not give Palm a chance to make things right? Things like new OS do not happen over night. Wouldn't you rather the next update be right and bug free, or rushed trying to please everyone immediately. I personally rather them get it right, than rush it. I'm sure in a little more time, Palm will make this phone great and most will love it.

[s219]

The graphics acceleration was a similar issue on an HTC device a few years back as well I'm, and on the nokia n810 neither is a company in dire straights. I'm just wondering if there is method to the madness, i'm guessing that webGL is part of the master plan.

It is likely in their plan for sure, but I hate to think Palm's plan depends on a yet official, still in the talks, "proposed" web standard -- that's not exactly a sure bet or a dependable timeline.

webGL will open up javascript API/hooks to the underlying OpenGL layer in the OS, but that still requires Palm to work on that layer and develop a driver so that webOS can talk to the GPU. So they still need to fix the core issue.

[milominderbinde]

Number one, this is all speculation.

My post was not based on speculation.

- Craig

[awrnsmn]

I was not talking specificly about your post. I didn't mean to offend anyone. It's just if you read thru all of the theads, time and time again everyone has got an opinion of what Palm is doing and thinking. Does anyone know what Palm is doing or thinking? Do you really think Palm and Sprint will let the phone stay in the state it is in and not continue to improve it? Do you think that since this is a new operating system that Palm may want to hear what the users want and then incorporate that into the phone? Maybe it was released to soon, but those of you angry about features, there must be something you like about the phone, otherwise you wouldn't be in here, you would have another phone...right? One more thing, I think they were open about the current limitations when we got the phone, and yet we all bought it. If you were Palm and sinking fast, wouldn't you do what they did and get the phone out early to stay afloat. (I'm not saying that's the case)....I would, and I do what they did, let everyone know the limitations of the phone, and continue to try and improve it as I went along....but that's me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Again...just my 2 cents. Thats all I can afford after paying for Pocket Mirror. (LOL)

[lost_cause]

I think the moral of the story is, the iPhone / iPod touch does graphics better than virtually any other mobile device out there. It makes for a seamless UI and limitless potential apps-wise.

Palm needs to take a step back and do some brainstorming on what the public wants. Nice looking hardware? Check. Fair price point? Check. Apps and OS? FAIL. Give us a smooth-as-silk user experience and the apps and ability to port these iPhone apps over without much of a hassle. With the multitasking capability added in, Palm wins.

(Jailbroken iPhones / iPod touches have the ability to install an app that allows for pseudo multitasking. The app name is backgrounder.)

[UF15]

I think the moral of the story is, the iPhone / iPod touch does graphics better than virtually any other mobile device out there. It makes for a seamless UI and limitless potential apps-wise.

Palm needs to take a step back and do some brainstorming on what the public wants. Nice looking hardware? Check. Fair price point? Check. Apps and OS? FAIL. Give us a smooth-as-silk user experience and the apps and ability to port these iPhone apps over without much of a hassle. With the multitasking capability added in, Palm wins.

(Jailbroken iPhones / iPod touches have the ability to install an app that allows for pseudo multitasking. The app name is backgrounder.)

Do you think maybe it isn't an issue of Palm not wanting to do it, but rather an issue of Palm not being capable of doing it?

I am sure Palm programmers use their Pres everyday are experiencing all these issues and have the same complaints we all do, probably even worse. Yet, we expect Apple quality from them when they just don't have Apple resources.

Palm cannot attract the quality of programmers and developers that Apple can. Apple probably pays their top programmers more, is a more exciting company to work for, more secure employment and all the perks of discounted Apple computers.

Palm on the other hand is fighting for their lives and may not even be around in 2 years. They don't have the quality of programmers. They don't have the quantity of programmers. They don't have the money. So if Apple, with all their resources, pulls off a lag-free OS with smooth scrolling, it is probably the best the industry can offer at this point. So I don't know how we can expect Palm to be able to match that.

Palm has done as much as they can with what they have, but they don't have enough to work with. I think they are fully aware of a lot of these problems, but they just don't have the expertise to fix them at this point, or at a fast rate.

[s219]

I am sure Palm's developers and engineers are as good as any from other companies. To be honest, you don't have to be great to do this stuff, you just need to be qualified.

Most of the issues we have with the webOS and SDK don't take a genius to fix -- any qualified developer could do it. It simply requires time and resources ($). I suspect those are the limitations for Palm. Instead of having 20 people working on graphics, they might only have one or two people.

Apple is good at innovating and getting stuff right that has eluded other companies in the past (companies with the same talent pool and resources). I think they benefit from good vision and good design. But those are not the reasons the iPhone OS has robust graphics. It's got robust graphics because it was built with current state of the art OS graphics practices and implementations, just like their desktop OS. They threw manpower and $$ at the problem.