[jmaine]

The ATT high speed network is faster than Sprint's, when you can get it. The 3GS can tap into twice the speed the 3G can off ATT's network.

I don't know where they did this testing, but as far as I've heard in major US cities their network is extremely overloaded.

On testing done on the same wifi network, it's pretty close with the 3GS being slightly faster.

Source? Where did you get this testing result from?

[jmaine]

i agree with you. pre has lots of room for improvement. hardware specs can't change on a phone, without buying a new one. software can, and so i'm totally not worried about pre's performance right now because it's spec'd out the same iphone 3gs. now if in a year and the performance is still poor, then i'd be worried because i would be thinking to myself that palm is not committed or not smart enough to make it perform faster, either of which is scary and doubtul.

What the heck are you talking about? Palm doesn't have a year to fix their software. They are struggling to survive and the Pre is supposed to save the company. They need to fix any and all issues with the Pre NOW not in one year.

If you want to worry about anything, you should worry about Palm not being competitive in today's market because if they don't get their act together, they won't be here a year from now and our Palm Pre will go the way of the dodo.

[kiz]

Remember folks that these are two different OSes. WebOS has the multitasking feature that evidently needs to sacrifice some speed in loading apps, etc. A couple of examples: DOS booted up in no time, regardless of CPU, in comparison to Windows. But windows brought in more functionality. And: Palm's Garnet OS had no peer when it came to booting and app loading/performance when it was implemented on the Treo600. Every Treo after had the new feature NVFS that drastically reduced speed in booting/app loading - advances in processor speed never regained the snappiness of the 600. Is it fair to compare these devices and the OSes they run on? With WebOS's advanced feature set, is it really fair to do speed measurements and compare it to the iphone OS with a different feature set???

Multitasking is pointless if slow. Its funny how Apple comes out with Iphone 3G Speed just in time for the Pres sluggishness.

[sambao21]

What the heck are you talking about? Palm doesn't have a year to fix their software. They are struggling to survive and the Pre is supposed to save the company. They need to fix any and all issues with the Pre NOW not in one year.

If you want to worry about anything, you should worry about Palm not being competitive in today's market because if they don't get their act together, they won't be here a year from now and our Palm Pre will go the way of the dodo.

i'm talking about a realistic scenario. you think if palm could fix any and all issues NOWm, they wouldn't have? I dont know what line of work you're in, but have you ever had a boss that asked you to get something done RIGHT NOW, but realistically it would at least take you sometime, even if you had to work all night?

for everyone on this forum's sake, i hope addresses issues sooner rather than later, but i'm not going to expect outrageous things because i know i'm setting myself for dissappointment.

i do think palm will be around a year from now, even if they get bought up by someone like dell.

[jmaine]

i'm talking about a realistic scenario. you think if palm could fix any and all issues NOWm, they wouldn't have? I dont know what line of work you're in, but have you ever had a boss that asked you to get something done RIGHT NOW, but realistically it would at least take you sometime, even if you had to work all night?

for everyone on this forum's sake, i hope addresses issues sooner rather than later, but i'm not going to expect outrage things because i know i'm setting myself for dissappointment.

Your analogy is flawed. We are talking about a life and death situation here (for a company). When you're discussing the very survival of Palm, the realistic scenario is that they haven't got all the time in the world to fix problems with their products.

From their SEC filings:

"Palm will recognize revenue for webOS products using a “subscription basis”(i.e. ratably over the products’ estimated economic life of 24 months.) "
I.e. the revenue from each Palm Pre sale is straight lined over 24 months. That means they need to sell a LOT of Palm Pre handsets to survive, not just a meager 150,000. 150,000 doesn't even cover the cost of manufacturing and debt repayments ($391 million in debt).

Here's some more for you to digest:

"Smartphone sell-through for the quarter was 482,000 units, down 42 percent year over year. Smartphone revenue was $77.5 million, down 72 percent from the year-ago period."

So far in their current fiscal year (9 months end Feb 2009), Palm had a loss of $640 million.

"We rely on third parties, some of which are our competitors, to design, manufacture, distribute, warehouse and support our products, and our reputation, revenues and results of operations could be adversely affected if these third parties fail to meet their performance obligations.

We outsource most of our hardware design and certain software development to third-party manufacturers, some of whom compete with us and some of whom have significant relationships with our competitors. We depend on their design expertise, and we rely on them to design our products at satisfactory quality levels. If our third-party manufacturers fail to provide quality hardware design or software development, our reputation and revenues could suffer. These third-party designers and manufacturers have access to our intellectual property which increases the risk of infringement or misappropriation of such intellectual property. In addition, these third parties may claim ownership rights in certain of the intellectual property developed for our products, which may limit our ability to have these products manufactured by others.

We outsource all of our manufacturing requirements to third-party manufacturers at their international facilities, which are located primarily in China, Taiwan and Brazil. In general our products are manufactured by sole source providers, and the Palm Pre will be manufactured by a new sole source provider with whom we are in the process of finalizing our arrangements. We depend on these third parties to produce a sufficient volume of our products in a timely fashion and at satisfactory quality levels. In addition, we generally rely on our third-party manufacturers to place orders with suppliers for the components they need to manufacture our products and to track appropriately the shipment and inventory of those components with our orders. If they fail to place timely and sufficient orders with suppliers and appropriately maintain component inventories or are unable to timely and cost-effectively change their orders based on our changing forecasts of demand, our revenues and cost of revenues could suffer."

It's obvious this new sole source provider is causing trouble for Palm. They need to whip these contractors into shape because their survival depends on it.

[1414H77]

That's the same way Apple does it- outsources. A problem is that Palm doesn't have much purchasing power clout and it's vendors probably have it on tight leash due to it's credit risk.

[johncc]

anandtech review has the Pre 30% faster for real world test than the 3G on 3G/EVDO. Good review, by the way

AnandTech: The Palm Pre Review

[clevin]

my response

somebody need to knock their head and tell them JSJSJS $is$ $only$ $a$ $small$ $portion$ $of$ $the$ $web$.

On a mobile device, JSJSJS $is$ $even$ $less$ $important$, $since$ $many$ $JS$ $powered$ $interactions$ $between$ $mice$ $and$ $page$ $just$ $don$'$t$ $exist$.

To use a jsjsjs $test$ $as$ $representation$ $of$ $real$ $world$ $page$ $loading$ $is$ $at$ $least$ $misleading$, $and$ $probably$ $stupid$ $and$ $useless$.

[Minsc]

@clevin

But this isn't really about browser performance... The entire application stack of WebOS is built on HTML and javascript. So the speed at which the Pre executes JSJSJS $is$ $very$ $relevant$. $That$ $being$ $said$, $I$ $do$ $question$ $this$ $particular$ $test$ $for$ $the$ $same$ $reason$ $others$ $have$.

I think a lot of people in this thread are confusing the OP's point - this isn't about browser speed or data speed.

[clevin]

@clevin

The entire application stack of WebOS is built on HTML and javascript. So the speed at which the Pre executes JSJSJS $is$ $very$ $relevant$.

thats a valid question, however, I don't believe the WebOS, or the application stack is entirely build on javascriptCore of webkit. Plam may have named the system in such a way that attract developers, but I think the fundamental system is still linux and written in C/C++, and builtin applications are mostly not written in javascript.

I can be easily convinced with extra document, if you can point any to me, that would be great.

Finally, I do want to mention that

1. sunspider does NOT test all the javascript functions, it only tests what it thinks as "representative" for normal desktop browsers, which highly unlikely can represent the mobile device behavior (even if the application stack of webOS is based on JavaScript and HTML, that does not mean sunspider covers the functions of webOS application stack).

2. 32 second seems alot, but keep in mind sunspider tests each functions 1 million times to produce measurable difference, so real world difference for an user is probably 1/1000000-1/100000 of that number, which would be 0.000032 to 0.00032 second difference, ask yourself if you can tell them.

3. lastly, webkit's javascript portion is still OSS, when tested and verified, its just as easy for palm to embed newer version of it.

[groovy]

Damn, I wanted the absolute fastest thing out there. Guess I have to dump my Pre for an iPhone 3Gs. Or...

I could be happy with what I have which doesn't beat every phone in every category but is pretty damn good at what it does.

[sambao21]

Your analogy is flawed. We are talking about a life and death situation here (for a company). When you're discussing the very survival of Palm, the realistic scenario is that they haven't got all the time in the world to fix problems with their products.

From their SEC filings:

"Palm will recognize revenue for webOS products using a “subscription basis”(i.e. ratably over the products’ estimated economic life of 24 months.) "
I.e. the revenue from each Palm Pre sale is straight lined over 24 months. That means they need to sell a LOT of Palm Pre handsets to survive, not just a meager 150,000. 150,000 doesn't even cover the cost of manufacturing and debt repayments ($391 million in debt).

Here's some more for you to digest:

"Smartphone sell-through for the quarter was 482,000 units, down 42 percent year over year. Smartphone revenue was $77.5 million, down 72 percent from the year-ago period."

So far in their current fiscal year (9 months end Feb 2009), Palm had a loss of $640 million.

"We rely on third parties, some of which are our competitors, to design, manufacture, distribute, warehouse and support our products, and our reputation, revenues and results of operations could be adversely affected if these third parties fail to meet their performance obligations.

We outsource most of our hardware design and certain software development to third-party manufacturers, some of whom compete with us and some of whom have significant relationships with our competitors. We depend on their design expertise, and we rely on them to design our products at satisfactory quality levels. If our third-party manufacturers fail to provide quality hardware design or software development, our reputation and revenues could suffer. These third-party designers and manufacturers have access to our intellectual property which increases the risk of infringement or misappropriation of such intellectual property. In addition, these third parties may claim ownership rights in certain of the intellectual property developed for our products, which may limit our ability to have these products manufactured by others.

We outsource all of our manufacturing requirements to third-party manufacturers at their international facilities, which are located primarily in China, Taiwan and Brazil. In general our products are manufactured by sole source providers, and the Palm Pre will be manufactured by a new sole source provider with whom we are in the process of finalizing our arrangements. We depend on these third parties to produce a sufficient volume of our products in a timely fashion and at satisfactory quality levels. In addition, we generally rely on our third-party manufacturers to place orders with suppliers for the components they need to manufacture our products and to track appropriately the shipment and inventory of those components with our orders. If they fail to place timely and sufficient orders with suppliers and appropriately maintain component inventories or are unable to timely and cost-effectively change their orders based on our changing forecasts of demand, our revenues and cost of revenues could suffer."

It's obvious this new sole source provider is causing trouble for Palm. They need to whip these contractors into shape because their survival depends on it.

all that is true and valid, but i think you miss the point of my analogy. the point is that something cant just appear out of nothing instantly. palm is working day in and day out on making WebOS better. if they could already make it better today, they would have. i dont think they're just taking vacation now that the pre has shipped. i'm sure any issues they have with their vendors (that they're aware of), they're working on rectifying it as quickly as they can.

i stand my points that i think they'll be around a year from now. companies don't just dissappear magically over night, it's worth something to someone, and i'm sure someone will want to buy up palm and keep it going if it comes to it. they have a lot of patents, IP, and products thats more than just intrinsic value.

and if a year from now the pre is still lagging behind 3gs in jsjsjs $performance$, $then$ $i$'$ll$ $give$ $up$ $hope$ $on$ $it$ $ever$ $being$ $as$ $fast$ $3gs$. $i$ $give$ $it$ $1$ $year$ $beause$ $it$ $is$ $a$ $realistic$ $timeline$ $for$ $them$ $to$ $make$ $the$ $massive$ $amount$ $of$ $improvements$ $that$ $they$ $need$ $to$ $make$. $i$ $mean$ $if$ $they$ $just$ $focused$ $solely$ $on$ $speeding$ $up$ $js$ $performance$, $they$ $probably$ $could$ $get$ $it$ $done$ $in$ $a$ $month$, $but$ $they$ $still$ $gotta$ $fix$ $all$ $the$ $issues$ $that$ $people$ $have$ $been$ $complaining$ $about$, $add$ $all$ $the$ $little$ $enhancements$ $people$ $want$, $finish$ $and$ $release$ $the$ $sdk$, $and$ $ramp$ $up$ $their$ $manufacturing$, $as$ $well$ $as$ $resolve$ $manufacturing$ $issue$.

that's a lot of things to demand happen. even for a company as dire as palm (or any company for that matter), do you truly believe they can just get all of that done right NOW???

[mattbrad2]

What the heck are you talking about? Palm doesn't have a year to fix their software. They are struggling to survive and the Pre is supposed to save the company. They need to fix any and all issues with the Pre NOW not in one year.

If you want to worry about anything, you should worry about Palm not being competitive in today's market because if they don't get their act together, they won't be here a year from now and our Palm Pre will go the way of the dodo.

I've heard this mentioned quite a few times recently but I think it's safe to assume Palm is going to be OK now. They sold 150k units in the smallest CDMA market in one country. They will move to Verizon in January and then to GSM probably next summer. The numbers will be astronomical when this thing hits the worldwide GSM market. I'm pretty sure Palm isn't sweating bullets anymore..

[busdriver#WN]

Hopefully they can fix the poor performance in the photo app. Try showing your friends more than one picture. Can't because it's too slow to render the full resolution picture.

I find the dialer app a little slow. I press the call button and then when I think it didn't take, I press it again and hang up the call.

[Minsc]

thats a valid question, however, I don't believe the WebOS, or the application stack is entirely build on javascriptCore of webkit. Plam may have named the system in such a way that attract developers, but I think the fundamental system is still linux and written in C/C++, and builtin applications are mostly not written in javascript.

I can be easily convinced with extra document, if you can point any to me, that would be great.

The SDK states that all applications are written in JSJSJS, $CSS$, &$amp$; $HTML$, $and$ $you$ $will$ $have$ $API$'$s$ $to$ $get$ $at$ $hardware$ $such$ $as$ $the$ $accelerometer$, $GPS$, $etc$, $etc$. $The$ $kernel$ $is$ $linux$, $but$ $that$ $layer$ $is$ $not$ $accessible$ ($and$ $not$ $necessary$) $for$ $virtually$ $any$ $app$ $a$ $dev$ $wishes$ $to$ $write$. $In$ $fact$, $the$ $only$ $application$ $right$ $now$ $that$'$s$ $NOT$ $following$ $that$ $rule$ $is$ $Classic$, $which$ $makes$ $sense$ $because$ $writing$ $an$ $emulator$ $probably$ $requires$ $a$ $bit$ $more$ $low$-$level$ $access$.

I don't have any document to point you to, but my understanding is that ALL the built-in applications are written in the same way as 3rd party applications are - HTML/Javascript/CSS. This includes apps like Google Maps, which is pretty impressive since it frankly looks every bit as good as the iPhone's Google Maps app which is written in Objective C/Cocoa.

[sambao21]

The SDK states that all applications are written in JSJSJS, $CSS$, &$amp$; $HTML$, $and$ $you$ $will$ $have$ $API$'$s$ $to$ $get$ $at$ $hardware$ $such$ $as$ $the$ $accelerometer$, $GPS$, $etc$, $etc$. $The$ $kernel$ $is$ $linux$, $but$ $that$ $layer$ $is$ $not$ $accessible$ ($and$ $not$ $necessary$) $for$ $virtually$ $any$ $app$ $a$ $dev$ $wishes$ $to$ $write$. $In$ $fact$, $the$ $only$ $application$ $right$ $now$ $that$'$s$ $NOT$ $following$ $that$ $rule$ $is$ $Classic$, $which$ $makes$ $sense$ $because$ $writing$ $an$ $emulator$ $probably$ $requires$ $a$ $bit$ $more$ $low$-$level$ $access$.

I don't have any document to point you to, but my understanding is that ALL the built-in applications are written in the same way as 3rd party applications are - HTML/Javascript/CSS. This includes apps like Google Maps, which is pretty impressive since it frankly looks every bit as good as the iPhone's Google Maps app which is written in Objective C/Cocoa.

this actually seems more like the way the original google maps was written since it was just html, css, jsjsjs. $I$ $mean$ $even$ $today$, $its$ $all$ $just$ $html$, $css$, $and$ $js$ $other$ $than$ $the$ $streetview$ $portion$ ($which$ $is$ $flash$). $the$ $iphone$ $version$ $is$ $actually$ $the$ $special$ $version$.

strange thing is if i go to maps.google.com on the pre, it opens up the google maps app. i wanted to see if could just use the site in the browser.

[Minsc]

this actually seems more like the way the original google maps was written since it was just html, css, jsjsjs. $I$ $mean$ $even$ $today$, $its$ $all$ $just$ $html$, $css$, $and$ $js$ $other$ $than$ $the$ $streetview$ $portion$ ($which$ $is$ $flash$). $the$ $iphone$ $version$ $is$ $actually$ $the$ $special$ $version$.

strange thing is if i go to maps.google.com on the pre, it opens up the google maps app. i wanted to see if could just use the site in the browser.

Good point, but Android's version of Google Maps is Java, and Windows Mobile's is probably c++. So for mobile devices, the webOS version is actually the unique one. My point though, was to show that just because our apps will be written in traditional web technologies rather than native code, we shouldn't expect them to be any less rich than the apps you get on the iPhone, Android, Symbian, whatever.

[IGoDwnTwn34]

I say......if it's not fast enough for you........get a laptop!!!!


IGO

[fushigi]

Hopefully they can fix the poor performance in the photo app. Try showing your friends more than one picture. Can't because it's too slow to render the full resolution picture.

I find the dialer app a little slow. I press the call button and then when I think it didn't take, I press it again and hang up the call.

Drifting OT a little ..

It seems the Photo app has a memory leak. I was browsing through lots of pictures trying to find a good wallpaper for the day and it gave me an error about memory getting low. I only had Photos & Email open so I closed both & went back in to Photos where I was able to pick my wallpaper du jour.

And Photos really should build a thumbnail cache so it doesn't have to constantly re-thumbnail all of the photos on the device. That'd boost performance nicely.

[Kyusaku]

Wow! Great logic and very reassuring! Palm sells outdated products!

I'm not saying that necessarily, around the announcement of the Pre the webkit build the Pre has was the most recent stable build. But over the last 6 months there have been newer stable releases which both Android 1.5 and iPhone 3.0 carry. Obviously Palm wanted to keep a webkit build they have stablized instead of trying a somewhat untested build on the Pre. I hope that Palm updates the Webkit the Pre uses to stay in the running and maybe get ahead of the game as well as make new features available to us that the newer versions carry.