[deesugar]

The reason why people wanted definitive tests, is that Palm has a different definition of standalone GPS than the industry standard. They don't agree with the definition given by other device makers, what you see on publications from technical papers to wikipedia.

Palm's position is they can call a device standalone GPS even when the device has a carrier network dependence for GPS to work (IE in the case of Sprint only working on 5% of the globe as opposed to actual standalone which works on 99%-100% of the globe).

AGPS does not mean standalone, and aGPS only, as Palm has made on other devices, has significant drawbacks over Standalone + aGPS.

The wikipedia link to AGPS was only meant to help others understand the concept of what we're talking about. The gpsOne stuff are directly referring to the system on the Pre. The Pre does indeed use the Qualcomm MSM6801A baseband chip and uses gpsOne technology. Furthermore the chip is capable of standalone GPS. Now if Sprint want's to cripple it or the apps you're using need a network connection to work that's something else. Facts are facts whether you agree with them or not, the bottom line is it can do standalone GPS.

[Beanis]

That's good new then. It means it is a software issue. It agitates me so much that I would consider it a bug.

[ScrapMaker]

That's good new then. It means it is a software issue. It agitates me so much that I would consider it a bug.

Honestly, who would really want to use the Pre as a standalone GPS device in another country when you don't even have signal to view the maps...?

If you had a regular GPS device, it would be totally useless in another country, unless you bought all the maps in advance, and had them on a storage card, or on your laptop, and ready to load them on your device...

My Tom Tom, and even the standalone programs I used to own for WM phones would be totally worthless as well.

I don't see this as being a huge problem. For normal applications, it works fine. I have lost signal during a trip, and the GPS continued to work fine.

For all we know, the Pre is designed (programmed) to NOT WORK in foreign countries... it might not be intentional, but maybe when the Pre has no cell coverage, or detects it's location way outside coverage area, it goes into some sort of "dark-mode" where it tries to save battery.

There could be a number of explanations, but the hardware is definitely capable.

[deesugar]

Honestly, who would really want to use the Pre as a standalone GPS device in another country when you don't even have signal to view the maps...?

I think some people are having MacGruber scenarios swimming in their heads.

[jhoff80]

Honestly, who would really want to use the Pre as a standalone GPS device in another country when you don't even have signal to view the maps...?

For like the millionth time... not all programs that can use the GPS need maps!

As an example, we already have geotagging built into the camera, I'd imagine that'd be especially nice if you're on vacation in Europe or elsewhere to track where you were when each photo is taken.

Then, there's other possible programs that people could easily write which you don't need maps / internet access for. Geocaching, a golf type program like Intelligolf, as a GPS just for coordinates when hiking/ camping, etc.

[Beanis]

Honestly, who would really want to use the Pre as a standalone GPS device in another country when you don't even have signal to view the maps...?

I thought I already explained what I was doing.

I wanted to geotag my photos during my two week trip. I wanted to update my location on twitter using the gps features of spaz and tweed.

Maps and navigation is the most popular thing to do with GPS but not the only thing to do with GPS.

Even in the states, I use non map and navigation features of my phone more.

If you had a regular GPS device, it would be totally useless in another country, unless you bought all the maps in advance, and had them on a storage card, or on your laptop, and ready to load them on your device...

Again, that's assuming maps and navigation are the only point of GPS. You need to go look at the app store and count how many apps use location features. How many of them are map/navigation apps? How many aren't?

[ScrapMaker]

You would really use your Pre as your "vacation camera?"

To each their own, I suppose, but I'd use a real camera. Any P&S made in the last 15 years is superior to the Pre's.

Obviously it would be nice if they enabled it to work anywhere in the world, but those uses seem very limited in nature.

[darnell]

There are plenty of places in the USA where having stand alone GPS is handy. Just look at Sprint's coverage, it does not include many parts of the USA, nevermind outside the country.

I've had 2 recent car trips where I was outside out Sprint range and having stand alone GPS on my Touch Pro with Garmin Mobile XT allowed me to continue using navigation. Also, being able to talk on the phone and use navigation at the same time has been a great benefit.

During one of those 2 recent trips, we went through one area that never has Sprint coverage and later in that same trip went through an area impacted by a tornado that same day and so Sprint coverage there was spotty.

And if I was outside the country, I'd use my device with some navigation software with maps of that area, instead of buying a stand alone unit for a vacation or short business trip.

I saw debates just like this in the Treo 800w forum when I had one and I sure am glad I dumped that dud for something with true stand alone GPS fuctionality.

The Pre not having a MicroSD slot will prevent some navigation companies from ever making software for it. But since it does not have stand alone GPS, it's not like having other navigation programs could help.

(You can read here about what a program other than Sprint Navigation can do.)

[Beanis]

You would really use your Pre as your "vacation camera?"

To each their own, I suppose, but I'd use a real camera. Any P&S made in the last 15 years is superior to the Pre's.

Obviously it would be nice if they enabled it to work anywhere in the world, but those uses seem very limited in nature.

I was traveling with 3 others that have high end cameras that are all into that. I simply wanted to log and blog.

[darnell]

NO...NO ONE says that except for Palm. ONLY Palm claims they can cripple the GPS and force it to aGPS only (walled garden) and advertise "Standalone"

Everyone else says standalone means absolutely no network dependence.

There is no disagreement except for Palm. Only one single entity out of hundreds of papers, publications, product specs, definitions etc. Only Palm claims that aGPS alone is standalone GPS.

We have been over this with the Palm 800w which turned out to have its standalone disabled.

It doesn't "depend."

"most people" do not think aGPS is not standalone -- you are confused and incorrect -- seriously.

Correct, and we saw one or more GPS professionals speak directly to this in the Treo 800w forum during the debates about its defective (aGPS only while being advertised as stand alone GPS and assisted GPS, it could never start without a compatible cell signal) GPS. If it needs a phone signal to start it's not stand alone GPS. Palm got it right in the Treo Pro, which does have a stand alone GPS unit, that can also do assisted GPS when in cell range. But the Treo Pro does not need a cell signal for the GPS to start.

[mfive]

So what I'm gathering here is that the pre doesn't come loaded with maps from another country, and why would they, really, considering we can't use our phone in another country...

But, that's the same as my Garmin GPS, it didn't come with European maps... only North American, so just because it doesn't natively support overseas GPSing (because of the lack of maps) doesn't mean that it's not standalone.

So, the same would go for the phone... it doesn't have the maps, and doesn't have the internet connection to download the maps, correct? I've never heard of a gps that could download maps through satellite, but I could be wrong...

[ScrapMaker]

Basically, the Pre will work in 99% of situations for GPS. Even if you lose signal. Its just not designed to work as a standalone unit for other countries
and mapping caves, or whatever it is you guys who are complaining normally use your _cellular phones_ for...

I thought the 800w wouldn't work at all without signal...

[ScrapMaker]

Also, I just loaded up google maps, found my location, and turned on airplane mode. Jumped in my car and it followed me all around my neighborhood. So clearly it works without signal.

[jhoff80]

Also, I just loaded up google maps, found my location, and turned on airplane mode. Jumped in my car and it followed me all around my neighborhood. So clearly it works without signal.

It's not a valid test unless you reboot the phone in airplane mode first.

[ScrapMaker]

It's not a valid test unless you reboot the phone in airplane mode first.

Why? It worked without signal.

[Beanis]

Why? It worked without signal.

Because GPS doesn't START working without a cell signal first. Something in the software driver for the GPS WILL NOT START GPS without a cell signal first. It doesn't make a lot of sense why it's built this way, as it looks like the GPS continues to work even after cell signal is lost.

But the Pre's GPS is completely useless unless you can start out with a network signal.

Reboot your phone in airplane mode. Then try to get GPS to work. If you do ##GPS# it will give you coordinates but trust me, they are the last coordinates your phone had before.

[darnell]

Also, I just loaded up google maps, found my location, and turned on airplane mode. Jumped in my car and it followed me all around my neighborhood. So clearly it works without signal.

It's not a valid test unless you reboot the phone in airplane mode first.

Why? It worked without signal.

Once you start using the GPS, it's on. What needs to be determined is how does the Palm Pre GPS start? Does it need a cell signal to start like the Treo 800w did? Once the GPS is running, even with the Treo 800w you could turn off the phone and the GPS might still work. But if the Pre's GPS needs a cell signal to start, it's not stand alone GPS.

You need to set your Pre to airplane mode, reboot it and then turn on WiFi ONLY, go outside and while still within WiFi range, see if Google maps can determine your location. If it can without the phone ever turning on than the Pre has stand alone GPS.

But any test you do without first booting the Pre without the phone on and keeping the phone off the entire time of the test is totally invalid.

[darnell]

Because GPS doesn't START working without a cell signal first. Something in the software driver for the GPS WILL NOT START GPS without a cell signal first. It doesn't make a lot of sense why it's built this way, as it looks like the GPS continues to work even after cell signal is lost.

But the Pre's GPS is completely useless unless you can start out with a network signal.

Reboot your phone in airplane mode. Then try to get GPS to work. If you do ##GPS# it will give you coordinates but trust me, they are the last coordinates your phone had before.

Beanis, you know what the deal is.

I think the GPS is kept from working stand alone, because Sprint wants to encorage people to use their navigation service.

Of course if you needed a cell signal to use WiFi, or to take pictures, some people might better understand why this is an issue.

[Beanis]

You need to set your Pre to airplane mode, reboot it and then turn on WiFi ONLY, go outside and while still within WiFi range, see if Google maps can determine your location. If it can without the phone ever turning on than the Pre has stand alone GPS.

Like I said, I did this many times in Europe, and what it LOOKED like it was doing was simply grabbing a general location from the ISP through WiFi, but it would be a large circle of a few miles. I'd be curious to see what others get.

[darnell]

If webOS were not so new, I'd recommend a stand alone GPS application to use for testing without using WiFi at all. With WM, we have apps to do these kinds of tests and get a count of the number of GPS sats in sight. That's how we were able to determine which WM devices had stand alone GPS.

And I don't like testing with WiFi on. Stand alone GPS testing should be done with everything off if possible, to see if the GPS can actually start without any assistance from anything else.