[NSiNSiNSi]

So, you are right. Whine away. Would you like some cheese with that whine? )

No need to anwer to the rest of the replies to this thread because I know all too well how useless it is, but I wanted to at least make something clear:

Do you read EVERYTHING I say in these boards? Where do you get that all I do is whine all day every day? Some of the cartoon characters around here want to fight their imaginary enemies by making a caricature of them as constant "whiners", that's their usual tactic for every argument. But the reality is that I very often talk about many subjects other than "whining" as you always put it. I put forth ideas on improving first and third party software, I thank users providing good tips and software developers writing great software, talk about my own experiences with some of the software I run daily, ask questions, and try to find out information from people experiencing the same problems/situations as myself. Some of those posts include my useless early attempts at reasoning with some of the aforementioned characters and yes, some good old complaining about the many things wrong with the phone, because I have always believed the only way to improve things in any system is to bring them to the surface as often as necessary.

So far it has been fairly productive, with people like Ben Gottlieb, Marc Blank and other developers responding to issues related to the 650, and PalmOne itself providing a patch after the massive uproar about the phone's many quality issues. I also talk to other developers outside of Treocentral and help in any way I can - by purchasing extra copies of software as a form of donation, by providing crash logs, by trying out new builds and reporting my findings, etc.

If we all followed the "You damn better be happy with your Treo or return it and don't talk about it" doctrine, none of this would have happened.

Just wanted to put that out there for anyone reading this with honest intentions. Otherwise, please carry on.

[pabo]

Unfortunately, amongst the brown shirt Palmapologist, there is no freedom of speech.

I hope you were exaggerating, because the analogy is a little dramatic. This is a phone here - your comparison is a little demeaning to the folks actually impacted by the brown shirts (if anyone does not know who a brown shirt was, I'll let MikeC explain).

I don't, nor do I think anyone wants to limit free speech. What I get confused about is when someone buys a product that they clearly find inferior or unacceptable, and then spend their time in a campaign against the provider. If you were to organize dissatisfied users to communicate the problems to P1, highlight the shortcomings, and then decide how to proceed - that could be productive.

The real problem (IMHO) is that there really are a small community of folks who are truly displeased and volume is used to make up for quantity.

Final note - I hope you reconsider your use of analogies, as this dilutes the real magnitude of what the brown shirts did.....

[Pearl_Diva]

I agree Pabo. Over-zealous might be a better term. Nazi, inappropriate.

[ZBoater_wn]

...Where do you get that all I do is whine all day every day? ....

Geez man, relax. That wasn't aimed at you specifically. I was talking in general terms about the whiners and those who want to shut them up, which was the topic of your post. Plus, I was KIDDING. You know, not only did I use a smiley, I actually said "I WAS KIDDING"....

I think you are taking this a little too personally. Perhaps you hate cheese. Some crackers with that whine maybe?

(See, I did it again... just kidding )

[ZBoater_wn]

...Final note - I hope you reconsider your use of analogies, as this dilutes the real magnitude of what the brown shirts did.....

Yes, please. Besides, teal is more my color.

[mikec]

Is that "C" for condescending. Your constant ranting and whining makes one wonder if you're not suffering from the old saw that "the whole world is crazy and I'm the only sane one left..."

No doubt, the Treo 650 is far from perfect; there are documented problems from various sources, as there are legions who claim they've had no resets, flame-outs or other disasters. Anyone who could read the specs knew there was only 23mb of available memory. Yes, PalmOne dropped the ball with 512k blocks, but they've fixed that for Sprint and GSM is just around the corner. Face facts - if the Treo 650 were a POS as your claim, an intellignet person like yourself (and NSi, SeldomVisitor, and all the others) would have dumped it in favor of a far superior solution....which is....

I don't disagree with your right to point out Palm's flaws, offer your solutions, etc., but this constant ranting about non-issues only serves to confuse those who are still considering the Treo 650.

You're not a Palm-apologist merely because you can be objective. All of us recognize its short-comings, but your "rant is beginning to look like rage..."

Nope, that's "c" for confirming the truth about how anybody who doesn't cream themselves everytime the word Treo is mentioned is subject to derision.

I have bought/own more Treos than anyone on TC, as far as I know (well over 300). I like a lot of things about it. But I also think there are a lot of major issues. Discussing them is not a crime, despite what the thought police here would like believe.

And no, I am not paranoid...the whole world is out to get me! ;-)

[mikec]

I hope you were exaggerating, because the analogy is a little dramatic. This is a phone here - your comparison is a little demeaning to the folks actually impacted by the brown shirts (if anyone does not know who a brown shirt was, I'll let MikeC explain).

I don't, nor do I think anyone wants to limit free speech. What I get confused about is when someone buys a product that they clearly find inferior or unacceptable, and then spend their time in a campaign against the provider. If you were to organize dissatisfied users to communicate the problems to P1, highlight the shortcomings, and then decide how to proceed - that could be productive.

The real problem (IMHO) is that there really are a small community of folks who are truly displeased and volume is used to make up for quantity.

Final note - I hope you reconsider your use of analogies, as this dilutes the real magnitude of what the brown shirts did.....

I know exactly what the analogy is...and I have many family members who suffered as a result. Calling out similar groupthink does not dilute anything; only a reminder of what has come to pass.

Maybe "brown shirt behavior" is a better term. But the actions of many hear follow the same principle (albeit not the same in physical terms, which I agree is much worse).

[mikec]

I agree Pabo. Over-zealous might be a better term. Nazi, inappropriate.

You used the N word, not me. I avoid that term for specific reasons.

Over-zealous is a little euphemistic....like saying Pol Pot was a little over-eager.

[mikec]

Those who continue to cry daily about your T650. I'm sure you would like to feel that I am somehow "intolerant" of your views. Fact of the matter is, I'm trying to help you by giving you the best advice there is. If you have a defective device and are beyond the troubleshooting, then get a replacement. And if that does not work then keep getting replacements till they give you your money back.

That is how you send a message to a company. You affect the bottom line. That has more power than all the rants and letters you could ever muster.

Hey if you enjoy crying daily (and I think some of you do) then have at it. I don't mind exchanges with you. But those of us not complaining would never put up with the issues you others say they are experiencing. Continue your nobel cry baby missions if you wish. All the while a replacement or refund could remedy all your issues.



And you can still return a defective device to your local Sprint PCS store. And I know with the T600s they allowed up to a year. Probably no different with the T650. That is far more convenient than even the P1 warrantee!

So if you have a Sprint T650 head to your local Sprint PCS store and tell them to replace it or give you your money back. If one does not treat you right go up the street to another. You know the don't keep track and it is easier than sending it back to P1.

Oh and there is that 30 day money back guarantee .

(What did I say NSi?)

Darnell, as you know, defective is not the same as not satisfied.

And it's "noble" and "warranty" I am sure your avatar would like to see proper spelling, as it is a hallmark of education, something for which he fought. If you are going to avatar a great person, at least don't shame him with your poorly written posts.

(BTW, he is one my personal heroes of the 19th century.)

[pabo]

I know exactly what the analogy is....

I think you were using it correctly (relatively speaking), I just get a little sensitive to making that sort of reference because of the shear magnitude of evil involved....

...btw - I also get annoyed that more folks correlate the Valley Forge exit off the PA Turnpike with the mall as opposed to the magnitude of what occurred there (I have "The March to Valley Forge" painting hanging over my fireplace http://www.revwar75.com/ob/ ), but that's just me.

just a thought...

[Woof]

(What did I say NSi?)

Darnell, as you know, defective is not the same as not satisfied.

And it's "noble" and "warranty" I am sure your avatar would like to see proper spelling, as it is a hallmark of education, something for which he fought. If you are going to avatar a great person, at least don't shame him with your poorly written posts.

(BTW, he is one my personal heroes of the 19th century.)

Pretty weak when you have to resort to attacking someones spelling.

[dstrauss]

(What did I say NSi?)

Darnell, as you know, defective is not the same as not satisfied.

And it's "noble" and "warranty" I am sure your avatar would like to see proper spelling, as it is a hallmark of education, something for which he fought. If you are going to avatar a great person, at least don't shame him with your poorly written posts.

(BTW, he is one my personal heroes of the 19th century.)

Tsk, tsk, tsk - the spelling/grammar police are among us again (think you missed an "of" in that last line there). I didn't know we were writing a thesis here (particularly those of us posting from our "inferior Treo 650's")

Amazing how you fail to address the issue raised and misdirect to off topic arguments. Why don't you just answer the central question:

QUESTION: Why haven't you just returned your Treo 650 for the "better alternative" out there?

ANSWER: Because there IS no better alternative. (Now I'll bet you turn the argument to a debate of what the meaning of "is" is?)

See how easy that was?

[darnell]

Darnell, as you know, defective is not the same as not satisfied.

And just the same you have the option of returning the device to get something else that makes you happier. Or is there nothing that makes you happy ?

And yes your "brown-shirt" statement was out of line. So what if you had family members affected. We all have family members that were affected by something and still that does not make such lame comparisons appropriate.

If your vocabulary is so broad that you are able to correct my spelling you should be able to find better terms to use when making your points.

[darnell]

...btw - I also get annoyed that more folks correlate the Valley Forge exit off the PA Turnpike with the mall as opposed to the magnitude of what occurred there (I have "The March to Valley Forge" painting hanging over my fireplace http://www.revwar75.com/ob/ ), but that's just me.

Off topic, but I think you would enjoy the book His Excellency: George Washington. Chapter 4 has some good coverage of the events at Valley Forge. And I used to live in Phoenixville, PA once upon a time .

[pabo]

Off topic, ..

off off topic - I used to go to church at the corner of Starr & Bridge Streets..

[ZBoater_wn]

You used the N word, not me. I avoid that term for specific reasons...

Oh, so referencing the meaning of the N word without actually using it, is that your accomplishment here? Unecessary and uncalled for. This is the reason threads get nasty and locked.

[mikec]

Oh, so referencing the meaning of the N word without actually using it, is that your accomplishment here? Unecessary and uncalled for. This is the reason threads get nasty and locked.

Look, all I was talking about was a behavior; what's uncalled for is the "overzealous" response of the TC thought police.

[mikec]

Pretty weak when you have to resort to attacking someones spelling.

Woof,

It's a benchmark of education; if you are going to communicate, and esp. if you are going to put up FD as your avatar, you should spell correctly.

(granted there are the cases of their and thier, but this was not the case).

[Insertion]

Woof,

It's a benchmark of education; if you are going to communicate, and esp. if you are going to put up FD as your avatar, you should spell correctly.

(granted there are the cases of their and thier, but this was not the case).

grate to knoe! Now i half an excuze to not chek my speeling.

[mikec]

Tsk, tsk, tsk - the spelling/grammar police are among us again (think you missed an "of" in that last line there). I didn't know we were writing a thesis here (particularly those of us posting from our "inferior Treo 650's")

Amazing how you fail to address the issue raised and misdirect to off topic arguments. Why don't you just answer the central question:

QUESTION: Why haven't you just returned your Treo 650 for the "better alternative" out there?

ANSWER: Because there IS no better alternative. (Now I'll bet you turn the argument to a debate of what the meaning of "is" is?)

See how easy that was?

I never said my grammar or spelling was above reproach; I thank anyone for their corrections. But to have an avatar of FD and then show ignorance is sad.

What is this "inferior" talk. I never said that; only the collective "you". Putting words in my mouth; again a tactic of the thought police.

I have addressed topics very directly; again, accusing me of something that is not true. Again, thought police tactic.

I will answer your question, as you are now posing them directly to me, albeit in a hostile fashion:

I fail to understand the question "why don't you return it for a better alternative". Is everything so black and white? (I guess with the thought police it is). I have repeatedly said what I like and don't like about the Treo (really more about PalmOne).

They aren't returned because they still perform at a threshold that makes them useful.

As for B, which you answered yourself (again, the though police arrogance is very evident), you seem to know everything. There are alternatives, like the PPC, which some people use in my company and which I have bought.

Direct enough for you?

SAND