[mshappe]

I hear a lot of people make excuses about how complex systems are *going* to crash occasionally, and it's just something we all have to put up with.

I'm an embedded systems engineer, and I'm here to tell you, bluntly: bull****.

It *is* possible to create a complex hardware and software environment, and have that environment be consistently stable, reasonably fast, and contain the features desired to make the product do the job well. It is equally possible, when problems in released equipment *do* arise, to produce fixes for those problems in a timely manner.

All that's necessary is for the producing company to actually care about quality.

[tundycentral]

Sounds like all of you are prime candidates for signing that petition, we're not messing around over there either.

Important... unlike how I started off in this campaign, we DO need to harness that anger and frustration and focus it... keeping as positive as possible given the circumstances.

If you don't know where to sign yet: www.treo650update.com ... never enough thanks mods!

[BlkLegGT]

I hear a lot of people make excuses about how complex systems are *going* to crash occasionally, and it's just something we all have to put up with.

I'm an embedded systems engineer, and I'm here to tell you, bluntly: bull****.

It *is* possible to create a complex hardware and software environment, and have that environment be consistently stable, reasonably fast, and contain the features desired to make the product do the job well. It is equally possible, when problems in released equipment *do* arise, to produce fixes for those problems in a timely manner.

All that's necessary is for the producing company to actually care about quality.

Oh, one more thing: if this were an automobile, it would fall under 'Lemon Law' jurisdiction; and, recalls would be prevalent. Period.

That 'bout sums it up.

[GWB]

After owning mine just over a month I have learned alot of things...the most important being most resets are caused by third party apps and are usually mentioned here....

Yeah, and that's another thing... Why do people want a PalmOS machine? About 9 times out of 10, the answer is that there is all this PalmOS software out there. Well, guess what, kids??? All that old software DOESN'T WORK on the TREO 650 because of the )(*^$##%%$#$*&*()&^$ NVFS memory crud. (At least that is how I read it from some of Jeff Gibson's posts.) So the NEW Gospel around here is that you should buy PalmOS because of all that wonderful software out there, but you mustn't use any of that software until it is updated (at much additional cost, specially if you already had it) to work on your TREO 650. Again, don't bother to tell me that isn't true, because every last post on the topic says that you can't install "just any third party program". At least you can pretty clearly see the reset message on that
FANTASTIC SCREEN.

[silverado]

Yes, the 650 has problems, yet it's the best thing out there so far. The demise of Palm (with all its incarnations) has always been predicted, but so far has failed to materialize.

It is quite interesting that Palm devices almost always fall short of the state of the art in many individual aspects, but almost always amount to more than the sum of their parts.

If the Treo 650 hadn't come out yet, guess what smart phone would still be the most popular out there? I think it would still be the Treo 600, despite the scathing criticism Handspring got from the start for their choice of a 160x160 display, low color depth, lack of BT, etc. There is A LOT to be said about the fact competitors (or THE competitor) haven't been able to crush Palm for almost 9 years when the odds have always seemed to be against it.

[dstrauss]

WHERE ARE THE COMPETITORS?

That's all I want to know. PPC looks like you're putting a ping pong paddle to their ears. I-Mate Jam is smaller, but no input other than on screen. Besides - you have to be a good techno geek to get one and get it going (availability).

Other Palm OS - let's see, Treo 600, Treo 300, Samsung i500, Samsung i330 - gosh, only one of those is still shipping.

RIM - okay, the 7100 series looks appealing, but can you get one (other than T-Mobile) and there's that pesky lack of EDGE.

Granted, the TReo 650 has warts, but just point me to a truly viable alternative.

[GWB]

Silverado, nobody's gonna disagree with most of that. BUT I think PalmOne is milking that into an excuse to release half-baked products and then releasing yet another new one INSTEAD of fixing the problems with the old one. I'll bet $100 that there ain't EVER gonna be a memory fix for the TREO 650...

[masonuc]

Exactly. Treo 650 runs circles around every other PDA out there. The PC phones suck almost as much as the 3rd party apps that are available. And RIM has basically no 3rd party apps.

Samsung i330 was a superior phone in many ways and it's shame Samsung has not come out with a keyboard version with upgrades similar to Treo (expansion slot, faster web, screen, camera, etc.).

[mshappe]

"It's the best there is, even if it's broken" is exactly the lazy, unassertive attitude that the marketeers at companies like PalmOne count on. "Stick our name on it and send it out there and people will buy it even if it's unstable."

Not working here. I'm still keeping an open mind about the 650, based on what comes out in terms of firmware updates, and how stable the Verizon edition, once released, turns out to be. But I'm also looking further afield -- at boring Blackberries, brick-like PPCs (the upcoming Samsung i730 show some promise), and even non-converged plain-old-cellphones -- because I am *not* going to pay $300-500 for a lemon.

[cec]

But I'm also looking further afield -- at boring Blackberries, brick-like PPCs (the upcoming Samsung i730 show some promise), and even non-converged plain-old-cellphones -- because I am *not* going to pay $300-500 for a lemon.

I missed the logic in your argument. Now all 650's are lemons. Some engineer you are....

Go buy something else please....

[GWB]

Not ALL of them are lemons, but a good number ARE defective or troubled in some way. If you, cec, are countering with the thought that NONE are bad, you're foolin' yourself. Why can't people just agree that there are issues and PalmOne needs to fix 'em? How does that harm anybody?

[tundycentral]

cec, take a pill bro, mshappe is right on the money... this beautiful piece of hardware (650) has been scarred, mutilated by nonsensical software/firmware...

The list of "backward", illogical steps in menu items alone (moving from the 600 to the 650) is embarrasing.. I've got to believe that there are legions of horrified software engineers at PalmOne, many that were with Handspring no doubt, that just can't believe what the suits have done.

It's plain to see that someone jumped the gun in releasing the 650... look at the thought that went into the hardware. Make a Pro and Con list on a legal pad and look at the side by side comparison... it's sickening. or better yet, take the easy route, go to www.treo650update.com.

Cheers

[darnell]

palmOne revenue up 18% Year-Over-Year

I think P1 will be doing fine in 2 years while 20% of Treo 750 owners will be unhappy and the other 80% enjoy the device .

[silverado]

"It's the best there is, even if it's broken" is exactly the lazy, unassertive attitude that the marketeers at companies like PalmOne count on. "Stick our name on it and send it out there and people will buy it even if it's unstable."

Not working here. I'm still keeping an open mind about the 650, based on what comes out in terms of firmware updates, and how stable the Verizon edition, once released, turns out to be. But I'm also looking further afield -- at boring Blackberries, brick-like PPCs (the upcoming Samsung i730 show some promise), and even non-converged plain-old-cellphones -- because I am *not* going to pay $300-500 for a lemon.

I disagree about it having anything to do with palmOne counting on us being lazy. It is quite OBVIOUS that building such an integrated device that combines all these features with the requirements of good ergonomics, usability, compactness, openness, reliability, affordability, profitability etc is QUITE HARD. This also answers the question of "where are the competitors?". They are not sleeping, they are doing their best and, like it or not, this is the best that can be done today to satisfy all these hard constraints.

Also, you cannot ask a business to "sit back and fix their old systems first" without producing anything new to generate revenue. If they did that, they would go out of business.

In my mind, there is no mystery; this is hard work. The users always ask for better everything (that's our job), but if we're trying to really understand why they aren't doing what we want, we need to take a more realistic approach than simply being the demanding user.

[Otter Emperor]

Beware, the P1 fanboys shall come forth with torches in hand...

At least you are predictable. Do you sit by waiting for the palm bashers to say something so you can chime in on how if ANYONE disagrees with anything they are automatically a palm lover in your eyes?

[Otter Emperor]

Silverado, nobody's gonna disagree with most of that. BUT I think PalmOne is milking that into an excuse to release half-baked products and then releasing yet another new one INSTEAD of fixing the problems with the old one. I'll bet $100 that there ain't EVER gonna be a memory fix for the TREO 650...

100 is chump change. Let's raise the bet...

[GWB]

....Also, you cannot ask a business to "sit back and fix their old systems first" without producing anything new to generate revenue. If they did that, they would go out of business.

But as long as you guys (at least implicitly) agree to use the thing before it's fixed, and keep urging people to buy more, PalmOne is sittin' pretty. That's what I've been sayin all this time. Unless you tell them that you expect them to fix this stuff, they ain't gonna do it. How much you wanna bet on that, Otter king? I'd suggest a sliding scale thing: $300 says no memory fix by the end of March, $200 says none by the end of April, $100 says none by the end of May, and $50 says none by the end of 2005. I'm not gonna give you any money, or make you pay me any, since you will need all you got for TREO 650 software, but I will give it to charity and post an anonymized receipt. You do the same. Wanna take me up on that anyone? I'm standing by for the rush of responses.....

[mshappe]

In my mind, there is no mystery; this is hard work. The users always ask for better everything (that's our job), but if we're trying to really understand why they aren't doing what we want, we need to take a more realistic approach than simply being the demanding user.

Gotta start somewhere. It seems like an awful lot of people are willing to say, "Well, it kinda works for me, if I never add anything to it and use it primarily as a phone. So I don't really know what you're complaining about. Palm rocks. Shut up and leave us alone!"

Based on their echoing silence on the question of many of these issues, I have to think that at least some of the powers that be at PalmOne feel the same way. I really hope I'll be proven wrong in the coming weeks, but what I see now is an attitude of arrogance.

'cec' accuses me of bad logic, because he seems to think that I'm proclaiming all 650s to be lemons. Well, I suppose it depends on how you define 'lemon'. It seems to me that there are some fairly consistent things that will break -- or at least destabilise -- most, if not all, 650s, based on comments in these and similar fora. I also see consistent complaints that BlueTooth, to the degree its implemented at all, is flaky, with sound-quality and functionality issues.

Since these are things (like adding third-party Palm-based software) that the device is more or less advertised to be able to do, then that sounds like an implementation flaw -- either in hardware or in software -- and that, to me, makes it a lemon, broken as released, if not broken as designed.

Is it fixable? Yes, and as near as I can tell, it's fixable in firmware and software. But it hasn't been fixed yet, and there isn't any strong, clear acknowledgement from PalmOne that it's going to be, and that should not simply be shrugged off.

'cec' also suggests that I just go buy something else. I may, yet. I don't really want to, tho', is the problem. I want to buy a working Treo650 -- actually, what I really want to buy is a Kyocera 7135 with a modern processor, better screen, updated software, and Bluetooth, but Kyocera seems to not be playing the smartphone game any more -- and I want PalmOne to behave like they have some actual pride in their work.

[Otter Emperor]

But as long as you guys (at least implicitly) agree to use the thing before it's fixed, and keep urging people to buy more, PalmOne is sittin' pretty. That's what I've been sayin all this time. Unless you tell them that you expect them to fix this stuff, they ain't gonna do it. How much you wanna bet on that, Otter king? I'd suggest a sliding scale thing: $300 says no memory fix by the end of March, $200 says none by the end of April, $100 says none by the end of May, and $50 says none by the end of 2005. I'm not gonna give you any money, or make you pay me any, since you will need all you got for TREO 650 software, but I will give it to charity and post an anonymized receipt. You do the same. Wanna take me up on that anyone? I'm standing by for the rush of responses.....

First of all you've changed from never to a more realistic sliding scale. If I were a betting man, I would say you are a winner for March and April. May is questionable. the $50 on the end of the year is the safe bet for me. Can I pick the charity?


Did you head back to Texas after signing the bill or are you still hanging around in DC?

[farzonalmaneih]

If the Treo 600 is a gauge at all, I wouldn't expect a rom update until May. That ROM update will not fix everything. In addition, there will not be another ROM update to follow. A year from now the next version of Treo will be available and will be the path most taken.