1.  12/12/2004, 01:42 PM In the 650's calculator, Calc, if you type 100-20%= you get .8 In the 600 you get 80
2.  12/12/2004, 01:54 PM Yeah thats a PROBLEM!!
3.  12/12/2004, 06:32 PM Originally Posted by sxtg Yeah thats a PROBLEM!! lol Sprint Treo 650
4.  12/12/2004, 06:52 PM I guess I'll return my 650
5.  12/12/2004, 08:11 PM woops! hope no accountants are using the t650 in this case!!!
6.  12/12/2004, 11:03 PM Originally Posted by mgauss In the 650's calculator, Calc, if you type 100-20%= you get .8 In the 600 you get 80 Actually, on the 600, if you type 100-20% nothing happens because that is an illegal operation -- all of these simple calculators usually only permit the % key to work with multiplication and division. At least that is the case on a P1 600. I don't know if the Calc app is different on a Handspring 600. And the 650 worls like most simple calculators: all the % key does is divide the quantity in memory by 100. You can prove that by just entering any number and hitting the % key. Regards, Robert
7.  12/12/2004, 11:16 PM Originally Posted by mgauss In the 650's calculator, Calc, if you type 100-20%= you get .8 In the 600 you get 80 I probably shouldn't add to this thread, but... IMHO, both answers are wrong, but the 650's is "less wrong." Normally, entering a number and pressing % divides the number by 100. Thus, the correct answer is 100-20% = 100-0.2 = 99.8. The 650 is inserting parentheses and saying 100-20% = (100-20)% = 80% = 0.8. The 600 is ignoring the % entirely and saying 100-20% = 100-20 = 80. Calc v4.0 on my aging Clie SJ33 does the same thing as the T600. It ignores the % sign if you press it after the second number in an addition or subtraction. If you press it after the 3rd number (or thereafter), it turns the +/- you just typed into a multiplication by (3rd number)%. Example: "100-20-10%" is treated as (100 - 20)*10% = 8. Moral: don't use the ambiguous percent key. Divide by 100 with the calculator or in your head.
8.  12/12/2004, 11:29 PM OK here is one for you. 3 men go to a hotel and they are told the room is \$ 30. They pay 10 each. The manager then realizes that the room is only \$ 25. So he gives the bellboy \$5 and tells him to give it to the 3 men. The bellboy pockets \$2, as he figures three men cannot break a \$5, and gives each man 1. So the men paid each 10-1=9 which is 9*3= 27 and the bellboy kept 2 total \$ 29. What happened to the \$30? Where is the dollar? ------------------------------------------------------------ On a separate note: (PS: isn't true that all calculators at Office Depot or Staples would do 100-20%=80?)
9.  12/12/2004, 11:31 PM http://www.infinitysw.com/ Get a real calculator...
10.  12/12/2004, 11:47 PM Originally Posted by mgauss OK here is one for you. 3 men go to a hotel and they are told the room is \$ 30. They pay 10 each. The manager then realizes that the room is only \$ 25. So he gives the bellboy \$5 and tells him to give it to the 3 men. The bellboy pockets \$2, as he figures three men cannot break a \$5, and gives each man 1. So the men paid each 10-1=9 which is 9*3= 27 and the bellboy kept 2 total \$ 29. What happened to the \$30? Where is the dollar? Wow, that's some pretty screwed up math. Remind me not to have you be my accountant There was no \$30 or \$29. The three men paid a total of \$27 (\$9 each) for a room that only cost \$25. The bellboy pocketed the extra two dollars (\$27-\$25) that they paid.
11.  12/13/2004, 12:42 AM Originally Posted by mgauss OK here is one for you. 3 men go to a hotel and they are told the room is \$ 30. They pay 10 each. The manager then realizes that the room is only \$ 25. So he gives the bellboy \$5 and tells him to give it to the 3 men. The bellboy pockets \$2, as he figures three men cannot break a \$5, and gives each man 1. So the men paid each 10-1=9 which is 9*3= 27 and the bellboy kept 2 total \$ 29. What happened to the \$30? Where is the dollar? Ah, a classic! One of the problems in mixing math and the real world (or formal logic) is that math does not always recognize the fact that a new situation (or transaction) is taking place that is, in the real world, separate from the previous transaction and NOT connected to it mathamatically. The one that freaks people out the most usually is the Boolean proof that it is mathamatically better -- if you were on the old "Let's make a Deal" Show -- to, if given the chance, switch your choice of doors after the first 'looser' door was reveiled. The math says, for example, if you picked Door #1 (out of three) and then Monty Hall showed you that door #3 had a skunk behind it and gave you the choice of staying with door #1 or switching to door #2, then -- according to the math -- you should switch, you will have a better chance of winning. The math is correct as far as it goes (VERY oversimplified...your first choice of door #1 was 1 in 3 of being the winning door, if you stick with that you still are stuck with your original 1/3 chance of having picked right but, if you change to door #2, that new choice is 1 in 2 so, better odds.). But it just doesnt sound RIGHT to people, even though you can show mathamatically that is actually the case. Somehow folks just KNOW after door #3 was taken out of the mix, is should be a 50-50 chance no matter which door you have. A Math proffessor can "prove" you wrong, changing has a mathamatically better chance! The problem is that the math does not recoginze the real-world logic/truth that, the very act of asking if you would like to change your choice actually CREATED a whole new choice, like it or not, that was 50-50. It is as of Monty Hall said "ha-ha, joke is on you, your first choice didnt count, you have to choose again, which door do you want." You are starting all over again you have no door choosen and you have a choice between door #1 and #2. Thus, it is really a totally new transaction that cancels out the original math. With this problem the same thing happens. The original transaction was each guy giving the desk man a \$10 bill. When the desk guy decided there was a mistake and money needed to be returned, a whole new transaction is created that, in the real-world, has no link mathamatically to the previous transaction. This new transaction is: Clerk has \$30 dollars, wants to give \$5 to three guys. Guys get three, bellboy steals two. All adds up...when you look at it like that!
12.  12/13/2004, 12:45 AM I say - the bellboy is a liar.
13.  12/13/2004, 12:47 AM No! (he he Ferengi here) Guys did pay 30 Now they get 3 So they paid 27 Clerk has 2 total is 29! But they paid 30 Where did the dollar go? Is that like the memory in the 650 is better than the 600?
14.  12/13/2004, 03:15 AM Originally Posted by midmofan With this problem the same thing happens. The original transaction was each guy giving the desk man a \$10 bill. When the desk guy decided there was a mistake and money needed to be returned, a whole new transaction is created that, in the real-world, has no link mathamatically to the previous transaction. This new transaction is: Clerk has \$30 dollars, wants to give \$5 to three guys. Guys get three, bellboy steals two. All adds up...when you look at it like that! Well an easier/more intuitive way of looking at it is to break it up into time steps instead of "transactions"...same thing but most people find steps in time easier to understand than "transactions" Unless you are an accountant (and NOT the Enron kind!) Time--Men---Clerk---Bell Boy--Total \$ 1.........30.........0........0..........30 2..........0........30........0..........30 3..........0........25........5..........30 4..........3........25........2..........30 So at all times the \$30 is accounted for if you want to say "Well the Men paid \$9 x 3 = \$27 for a \$30 room...then have to subtract ALL of line 4 from line 1 Time--Men---Clerk---Bell Boy---Total \$ 1-4......27.......-25.......-2........30-30=0 (*sigh* the joys of doing all the taxes for everyone in my family!) Last edited by Atif; 12/13/2004 at 03:21 AM.
15.  12/13/2004, 03:56 AM In response to midmofan, I would say that you dont have to switch your choice to get the better odds. Your odds have improved to 50/50, but you can stay with door #1 or change to door #2, either way it's still 50/50.
16.  12/13/2004, 05:15 AM My calc really is less functional than it was on the 600 This formula is one that I need to do almost everyday and it doesn't work on the 650 3500-5%/2 Kinda sucky! Does anyone know a good FREE calculator?
17.  12/13/2004, 05:31 AM Originally Posted by Dafydd http://www.infinitysw.com/ Get a real calculator... thanks for link - looks a bit like syncalc which I used back when I had a palm v (which isn't compatible with treo)
18.  12/13/2004, 06:38 AM Originally Posted by mgauss OK here is one for you. 3 men go to a hotel and they are told the room is \$ 30. They pay 10 each. The manager then realizes that the room is only \$ 25. So he gives the bellboy \$5 and tells him to give it to the 3 men. The bellboy pockets \$2, as he figures three men cannot break a \$5, and gives each man 1. So the men paid each 10-1=9 which is 9*3= 27 and the bellboy kept 2 total \$ 29. What happened to the \$30? Where is the dollar? ------------------------------------------------------------ On a separate note: (PS: isn't true that all calculators at Office Depot or Staples would do 100-20%=80?) Okay here is the answer as to were the other dollar went....Then front desk clerk has it! Now I will explain why the money is with the Frond Desk Clerk. when the clerk over charged them and then decided to refund \$5, the new cost basis for the room changed from \$30 to \$25. Thus the three men paid \$8.333/man for the room (it can not be calculated as you inferred by \$10-\$1, that is wrong). thus the frond desk clert now has \$25 for the room. The bellboy take \$2 , and each man gets \$1, thus accounting for the entire \$30....If you ignore a step in the math, you will get the wrong answer and wonder where the \$1 went.
19.  12/13/2004, 08:15 AM Originally Posted by Jeff DLB I probably shouldn't add to this thread, but... IMHO, both answers are wrong, but the 650's is "less wrong." Normally, entering a number and pressing % divides the number by 100. Thus, the correct answer is 100-20% = 100-0.2 = 99.8. The 650 is inserting parentheses and saying 100-20% = (100-20)% = 80% = 0.8. The 600 is ignoring the % entirely and saying 100-20% = 100-20 = 80. Calc v4.0 on my aging Clie SJ33 does the same thing as the T600. It ignores the % sign if you press it after the second number in an addition or subtraction. If you press it after the 3rd number (or thereafter), it turns the +/- you just typed into a multiplication by (3rd number)%. Example: "100-20-10%" is treated as (100 - 20)*10% = 8. Moral: don't use the ambiguous percent key. Divide by 100 with the calculator or in your head. Sorry for going back on topic......... I agree with the part about the 650 inserting th (), but if the 600 acts anything like my PC calculator, it is indeed subtracting 20 percent of 100. If I try 200-20% on my PC, it gives 160, 20% of 200 is 40, so it did subtract 20% of the 200. Too bad that with all of the advanced caculators the 650 has, none of them has a mode that works where you could put in the () where you want them. Most hand held caculators have them. Blue Skies, Wags
20.  12/13/2004, 08:22 AM Originally Posted by sxtg My calc really is less functional than it was on the 600 This formula is one that I need to do almost everyday and it doesn't work on the 650 3500-5%/2 Kinda sucky! Does anyone know a good FREE calculator? sxtg, all you have to do, is this. If you want to subtract 5% from something, just multiply it by .95 so this should work: 3,500 * .95 / 2 = 1,662.5 How do your formula's differ? Are the percentages different? if so..... to subtract 10%, just multiply by .9 to subtract 15%, just multiply by .85 and so on...... Blue Skies, Wags
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