[helpermonkey]

http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/494-1.htm

http://kb.palmone.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/W...ase=obj(35222)

The treo central story makes it clear that the new 650 uses more memory to store the same data than the 600. I am no power user, but to me that is not a problem. I purchased an SD card to go with my Treo. Doesn't that solve the issue? I guess if you are swapping multiple cards it could be a problem, but a 1Gb card seems like it should hold a lot of data to me. Anyway even if I am not worried about the issue, any idea on how you would be able to tell if it was fixed or not?

[ypshan]

Treo300 is more convenient than described. When you receive a call, the caller is shown on the screen. Open the flip and just talk. When finished, closing the flip ends the call.

It's quite handy when in the car. No need to search for buttons.

[noahs]

I keep reading this info about the 64K SIM online. Unless I am completely missinformed, and I would like to think of myself as being much better informed on such matters than a sales person or a cust. service rep., the information above it completely FALSE.

Daddyof3 I am not saying it's your fault... sounds like bad info was given to you.

The SIM is not an inteligent device. It can not tell the phone how to hand off or camp or anything like that. The network does that. The SIM can tell the phone what network is it's home network and what networks are the prefered networks (and in what rank). My understanding is, other than additional memory for the user, that the 64K SIM allows for the SIM to be reprogrammed over the air in a way(s) that was (were) not previously possible. For example if you are Cingular now, but have a BLUE SIM from ATT, then they would not be able to change the home network to Cingular via over the air programing. I can see some people thinking "good, Cingular's coverage sucks here I want to stay on ATT". True, but there is currently no reason to switch you anyway, so they wouldn't need to. On the other hand if they start cutting those blue sites over to the cingular network as the two networks integrate... do you still want to be on a network that is going away? At that point I am guessing you would say "no". That is just one possible scenario, don't think it is the way it is going to happen in your particular area or jump to any conclusions like that (although netowrk integration is going to happen no doubts about that). I am just trying to point out what I know to be the purpose of the new 64K SIM. It doesn not give you better coverage or service or anything like that.

Anyone else have information besides what I have stated?

That is actually not accurate. When Cingular introduced their 64k "smart SIM", they enabled a feature called Enhanced Network Selection (ENS). If your phone supports ENS and you have a 64k SIM card, then the old model of network selection (as helpermonkey describes) is supplanted by a more intelligent system.

While non-ENS phones/SIMs had a single home network that the phone would always prefer, ENS uses "load balancing" between both the blue and orange networks. Essentially, ENS examines the load on blue and orange and selects the network that is the least overloaded. This system is much better for Cingular, so they can more efficiently manage their spectrum capacity while they work to physically merge blue and orange over the next two years. ENS is essentially an interim solution. Once the two networks become one, it will become unecessary.

For some users, ENS has a side benefit of selecting a better signal. While non-ENS phones would always try to lock onto the home network no matter what (blue or orange, depending on what service you have), ENS phones will freely switch between the two. In some areas, for example, the orange signal is weak but your phone locks onto an almost unusable signal. ENS makes it less likely this will occur. As far as I understand it, the network switching is based on load balancing (which network has the fewest number of active connections) as opposed to signal balancing (which network has the strongest signal). That said, it's a good thing to be on a less congested network, as congestion impacts the quality of your connections, dropped calls, busy signals, etc.

They key, however, is that you must *both* have a 64k SIM and a phone that supports ENS. 64k SIM cards are backward compatible with non-ENS phones, but they obviously won't use ENS. So, if you put a 64k SIM in a 600 (which is not ENS capable), it will work exactly the same as a 32k SIM.

Cingular is shipping most new phones with ENS enabled in the firmware, so one would think since palmOne is customizing each model to the particular needs of the carrier that the 650 would support ENS. However, I haven't seen any confirmation one way or the other on this, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see once the Cingular 650's start shipping.

For a more in-depth discussion of ENS and 64k SIMs, see this thread on HoFo:

http://howardforums.com/showthread.p...hreadid=492681

[helpermonkey]

That is actually not accurate. When Cingular introduced their 64k "smart SIM", they enabled a feature called Enhanced Network Selection (ENS). If your phone supports ENS and you have a 64k SIM card, then the old model of network selection (as helpermonkey describes) is supplanted by a more intelligent system.

While non-ENS phones/SIMs had a single home network that the phone would always prefer, ENS uses "load balancing" between both the blue and orange networks. Essentially, ENS examines the load on blue and orange and selects the network that is the least overloaded. This system is much better for Cingular, so they can more efficiently manage their spectrum capacity while they work to physically merge blue and orange over the next two years. ENS is essentially an interim solution. Once the two networks become one, it will become unecessary.

For some users, ENS has a side benefit of selecting a better signal. While non-ENS phones would always try to lock onto the home network no matter what (blue or orange, depending on what service you have), ENS phones will freely switch between the two. In some areas, for example, the orange signal is weak but your phone locks onto an almost unusable signal. ENS makes it less likely this will occur. As far as I understand it, the network switching is based on load balancing (which network has the fewest number of active connections) as opposed to signal balancing (which network has the strongest signal). That said, it's a good thing to be on a less congested network, as congestion impacts the quality of your connections, dropped calls, busy signals, etc.

They key, however, is that you must *both* have a 64k SIM and a phone that supports ENS. 64k SIM cards are backward compatible with non-ENS phones, but they obviously won't use ENS. So, if you put a 64k SIM in a 600 (which is not ENS capable), it will work exactly the same as a 32k SIM.

Cingular is shipping most new phones with ENS enabled in the firmware, so one would think since palmOne is customizing each model to the particular needs of the carrier that the 650 would support ENS. However, I haven't seen any confirmation one way or the other on this, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see once the Cingular 650's start shipping.

For a more in-depth discussion of ENS and 64k SIMs, see this thread on HoFo:

http://howardforums.com/showthread.p...hreadid=492681

Do you know of any links to official documentation on ENS? I would like to see them if you do, like white papers or whatever. Something other than a discussion is what I am looking for. I will look on Google, but so far I just see forum links.

I am reading the first posts in that thread and there are what I believe to be errors in the first post about how the phone even behaves under normal conditions. So it is not doing much to convince me that I am wrong as of yet.

According to your description of ENS, the phone selects the less congested network? Or is it the network telling the phone? There is no way for the phone to know which network is loaded more.

edit:

Another question, does anyone know the kind of processing power that would be required for the netowrk to keep track of the load balance and then switch users from one home network to another, on the fly, in a market with say 1- 2 million subscribers? Maybe I am thinking about it wrong, but it seems like a lot of resources are going to get eaten up to do something that doesn't really need to be done - that being switch between networks on the fly. Why is it even necessary to do that? The orange and the blue customers were doing relatively fine before the two companies became one. I could go into a bunch of other reasons this would be difficult and pointless to do on the fly.

Once again ENS is for load balancing, but a user should only need tobe switched from one network to another once and a while if not only once.

Also, why are people reporting having there phone's network preference changed from orange to blue and vice versa after their complaining to customer service (usually at a higher level than basic service)?

[Daddyof3]

Cingular is shipping most new phones with ENS enabled in the firmware, so one would think since palmOne is customizing each model to the particular needs of the carrier that the 650 would support ENS. However, I haven't seen any confirmation one way or the other on this, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see once the Cingular 650's start shipping.

Very good discussion, thank you! Do you maybe think that this was the holdback on the 650? For palm to develop a firmware patch that would allow the GSM 650 to utilize ENS, that we all might have to download later? Just a thought...

[Mtreosexual]

Do you know of any links to official documentation on ENS? I would like to see them if you do, like white papers or whatever. Something other than a discussion is what I am looking for. I will look on Google, but so far I just see forum links.

I am reading the first posts in that thread and there are what I believe to be errors in the first post about how the phone even behaves under normal conditions. So it is not doing much to convince me that I am wrong as of yet.

According to your description of ENS, the phone selects the less congested network? Or is it the network telling the phone? There is no way for the phone to know which network is loaded more.

edit:

Another question, does anyone know the kind of processing power that would be required for the netowrk to keep track of the load balance and then switch users from one home network to another, on the fly, in a market with say 1- 2 million subscribers? Maybe I am thinking about it wrong, but it seems like a lot of resources are going to get eaten up to do something that doesn't really need to be done - that being switch between networks on the fly. Why is it even necessary to do that? The orange and the blue customers were doing relatively fine before the two companies became one. I could go into a bunch of other reasons this would be difficult and pointless to do on the fly.

Once again ENS is for load balancing, but a user should only need tobe switched from one network to another once and a while if not only once.

Also, why are people reporting having there phone's network preference changed from orange to blue and vice versa after their complaining to customer service (usually at a higher level than basic service)?

2 long posts.
Tell me when ?
I do n't care, what technology will come when.
I simply want my new toy for which, i have been waiting too long.

[MisterEd]

Huh? I never said they would stop using it, in fact I said the complete opposite. I said: "Coverage has been excellent and virtually identical on both because the Orange phone is said to be using AT&T's towers now." If they stopped using the Blue network I'd have ZERO signal here in North Jersey (on my Orange phone) because all there is here are Blue towers (and some T-Mo).

Not entirely true MisterEd. Cingular would be foolish to stop using the Blue network, as we are calling it. It is of more use than for just maintaining ATT's old customer base.

[helpermonkey]

Huh? I never said they would stop using it, in fact I said the complete opposite. I said: "Coverage has been excellent and virtually identical on both because the Orange phone is said to be using AT&T's towers now." If they stopped using the Blue network I'd have ZERO signal here in North Jersey (on my Orange phone) because all there is here are Blue towers (and some T-Mo).

Not trying to put words in your mouth. I was refering to this part of theoriginal post I believe "The only way to go "blue" now seems to be by phone to their B2B side or through Amazon.com and some other 3rd party resellers."

If you mean get a new phone who's home is the old ATT netowrk by "going Blue" - that is what I was saying was not true. Is that clearer? Maybe I misunderstood you.

[helpermonkey]

Very good discussion, thank you! Do you maybe think that this was the holdback on the 650? For palm to develop a firmware patch that would allow the GSM 650 to utilize ENS, that we all might have to download later? Just a thought...

I don't know of that being the hold up - but I could be unaware of that being the cause.

[Mtreosexual]

For all those who think flip is needed to protect the screen.
Here is something to keep your treo safe for centuries.
http://store.treocentral.com/content...adl=discussion

[MisterEd]

Yes, you are a Cing customer but you can still buy ATT plans from Amazon (these are actual ATT and not Cingular plans) as well as from the B2B number. I was just offered 4 lines, (as a new customer) on the ATT minute plans using an ATT 650 when available and an ATT SIM. The rep even suggested I go on "the Blue side" (his words) because the plans are better, You can't do it in a store or online but you can do it through B2B by phone. They are most definately still selling AT&T service. Yes, the bill will say Cingular but it's still an ATT SIM & plan (Free 7PM off peak and free INcoming SMS & MMS).

What do you mean "If you are a formet ATT client, and still have the SIM, a new 650 will only be using those ATT sites?" That's not so. AT&T has been using Cing towers since last August in many parts of the country with an ATT SIM. This started even before the merger was official.

If you are what I am going to call a Cingular Blue customer, you are still a Cingular customer. There is no ATT any more. Any former ATT employees or custoemrs are now Cingular employee or customers. You may still have your legacy rate plans, you may still be dealing with the same former ATT employees, but you are now dealing with Cingular. You "should" get the same treatment from either side, but I realize that as ATT merges into Cingular it will take time before everything is the same for everyone. If you are a formet ATT client, and still have the SIM, a new 650 will only be using those ATT sites. A new 64K SIM will only change your coverage if they put you on the original Cingular network, it will not have you using both networks at the same time just because it si a 64K SIM.

[MisterEd]

As I posted in my previous message you can still buy "Blue" minute plans, "blue" data plans, "blue" phones and "blue" sims from both Amazon and Cing/ATT B2B. Now if the "Blue sim" doesn't put you on the old ATT network, then I stand corrected (and the fellow offering to set it up at the B2B number is lieing). I didn't ask, he volunteered that I'd be better off (plan wise) to get 650's on the "blue side" and gave me the choice of a blue or orange 650.

Not trying to put words in your mouth. I was refering to this part of theoriginal post I believe "The only way to go "blue" now seems to be by phone to their B2B side or through Amazon.com and some other 3rd party resellers."

If you mean get a new phone who's home is the old ATT netowrk by "going Blue" - that is what I was saying was not true. Is that clearer? Maybe I misunderstood you.

[specimen38]

Validation: I got the same story when I spoke to a B2B rep on Thursday.

As I posted in my previous message you can still buy "Blue" minute plans, "blue" data plans, "blue" phones and "blue" sims from both Amazon and Cing/ATT B2B. Now if the "Blue sim" doesn't put you on the old ATT network, then I stand corrected (and the fellow offering to set it up at the B2B number is lieing). I didn't ask, he volunteered that I'd be better off (plan wise) to get 650's on the "blue side" and gave me the choice of a blue or orange 650.

[specimen38]

MetroPCS operates on 1900 mhz in the San Francisco/Oakland and Sacramento/San Jose area. www.metropcs.com This is the future No contracts, Flat Fee.

What is this MetroPCS you speak of specimen38?

Are they someone like Virgin Mobile? Or do they actually have their own network and if so, what spectrum? I didn't know there was much, if any unussed PCS spectrum floating around for sale out there.

[helpermonkey]

Yes, you are a Cing customer but you can still buy ATT plans from Amazon (these are actual ATT and not Cingular plans) as well as from the B2B number. I was just offered 4 lines, (as a new customer) on the ATT minute plans using an ATT 650 when available and an ATT SIM. The rep even suggested I go on "the Blue side" (his words) because the plans are better, You can't do it in a store or online but you can do it through B2B by phone. They are most definately still selling AT&T service. Yes, the bill will say Cingular but it's still an ATT SIM & plan (Free 7PM off peak and free INcoming SMS & MMS).

What do you mean "If you are a formet ATT client, and still have the SIM, a new 650 will only be using those ATT sites?" That's not so. AT&T has been using Cing towers since last August in many parts of the country with an ATT SIM. This started even before the merger was official.

Yes you are right to say that you can use "orange" sites even as a former ATT customer or a new Cingular customer who gets a Blue SIM. Before the merger roaming on the two networks was opened to each others clients (to the best of my knowledge it was like this in most or all networks). Roaming had also been available from ATT to T-Mobile in some LACs as well (not the whole network, but just slect areas). The confusion about all the Blue or Orange sites stems from the fact that there are so many ways to talk about it.

A few examples:

roaming - you can use another carrier's network if and only if you are anable to find your home network at a specific signal strength. Every 6 minutes the phone will scan the frequency band in serch of the home network or another network with a higher preference. Scanning only can happen when a call is not us. When you are on a call and leave the coverage of your home area you can not hand off to the roaming partner (it is possible one could be set up - but uncommon from my experience), the call will drag and drop to to no signal. Then your phone will scan to the roaming network and camp.

select handover(s) from network to network - sorry I don't have a good term for this one. In this case a specific Blue site has a handover defined to a specific Orange site. The handover may or maynot be defined in one direction only (blue to orange but not back from orange to blue). So in this case you can use the coverage of the other network where the other is lacking WITH a call up. In the above mentioned case you would hand over from ATT to Cingular's network and remain on their network for the remainder of the call.

"universally" defined handovers from network to network - It is possible to define handover relationships between the two networks as it the sites were on the same network. In this case you would handover from best cell to best cell regardless of the network when a call is up. This would always give you the best possible signal. The problem with this is the bandwidth betwen the two netowrks for signalling purposes would have to be huge, too huge to make t a realistic option.

64K SIM rumors? - the way I have been hearing people talk about the 64K SIM and ENS I have the impression that people believe it allows you to use the best possible cell when a call is up, or when a call is not. I don't agree with this at all. Until I see evidence that proves me wrong (which I admit is possible, and I would like to know if I am), I belive that this is not possible. I know it is not possible with a call up. And well I know it is not possible when a call is not up and you are camping - at least if the phone is acting according to GSM rules. When a call is up you can only ever handover to sites in the serving cell's neighbor list and when you are camping you can only reselect to a sell that is using a channel in the idle list for channel scanning on the site you are camping on. How you would do otherwise I do not know. When camping you would have to wait for the timer that tells the phone to do a band scan to change networks. If you are already on your prefered home network why would you want the phone to scan for a nonprefered network? You would not.

Home network - is the network your phone wants to be on if possible. SIM tells it this information. An old BLUE SIM should have the BLUE network as home, an old ORANGE SIM should have the Orange network as home and a
new 64K ORANGE SIM could have either network as home (but to my knowledge it is not changing on the fly as some seem to suggest - there would rarely be reason to switch home networks).

Sorry if I am too far off topic or too confusing guys and girls. Hopefully I am saying something that is of value to someone and I am not just going on and on for my own benifit.

[Mtreosexual]

Yes you are right to say that you can use "orange" sites even as a former ATT customer or a new Cingular customer who gets a Blue SIM. Before the merger roaming on the two networks was opened to each others clients (to the best of my knowledge it was like this in most or all networks). Roaming had also been available from ATT to T-Mobile in some LACs as well (not the whole network, but just slect areas). The confusion about all the Blue or Orange sites stems from the fact that there are so many ways to talk about it.

A few examples:

roaming - you can use another carrier's network if and only if you are anable to find your home network at a specific signal strength. Every 6 minutes the phone will scan the frequency band in serch of the home network or another network with a higher preference. Scanning only can happen when a call is not us. When you are on a call and leave the coverage of your home area you can not hand off to the roaming partner (it is possible one could be set up - but uncommon from my experience), the call will drag and drop to to no signal. Then your phone will scan to the roaming network and camp.

select handover(s) from network to network - sorry I don't have a good term for this one. In this case a specific Blue site has a handover defined to a specific Orange site. The handover may or maynot be defined in one direction only (blue to orange but not back from orange to blue). So in this case you can use the coverage of the other network where the other is lacking WITH a call up. In the above mentioned case you would hand over from ATT to Cingular's network and remain on their network for the remainder of the call.

"universally" defined handovers from network to network - It is possible to define handover relationships between the two networks as it the sites were on the same network. In this case you would handover from best cell to best cell regardless of the network when a call is up. This would always give you the best possible signal. The problem with this is the bandwidth betwen the two netowrks for signalling purposes would have to be huge, too huge to make t a realistic option.

64K SIM rumors? - the way I have been hearing people talk about the 64K SIM and ENS I have the impression that people believe it allows you to use the best possible cell when a call is up, or when a call is not. I don't agree with this at all. Until I see evidence that proves me wrong (which I admit is possible, and I would like to know if I am), I belive that this is not possible. I know it is not possible with a call up. And well I know it is not possible when a call is not up and you are camping - at least if the phone is acting according to GSM rules. When a call is up you can only ever handover to sites in the serving cell's neighbor list and when you are camping you can only reselect to a sell that is using a channel in the idle list for channel scanning on the site you are camping on. How you would do otherwise I do not know. When camping you would have to wait for the timer that tells the phone to do a band scan to change networks. If you are already on your prefered home network why would you want the phone to scan for a nonprefered network? You would not.

Home network - is the network your phone wants to be on if possible. SIM tells it this information. An old BLUE SIM should have the BLUE network as home, an old ORANGE SIM should have the Orange network as home and a
new 64K ORANGE SIM could have either network as home (but to my knowledge it is not changing on the fly as some seem to suggest - there would rarely be reason to switch home networks).

Sorry if I am too far off topic or too confusing guys and girls. Hopefully I am saying something that is of value to someone and I am not just going on and on for my own benifit.

Helpermonkey, you are out of control.

[helpermonkey]

MetroPCS operates on 1900 mhz in the San Francisco/Oakland and Sacramento/San Jose area. www.metropcs.com This is the future No contracts, Flat Fee.

Sounds promising on the surface. I wonder what technology they are using, do you know? Do they have roaming partners etc so you can make calls outside their small networks? IS the network quality and service good? If all was equal, it would be a great deal for the customer. I would imagine that they are at a disadvantage spectrum wise (don't know if they have 10Mhz or 30Mhz licenses). Also with a company like that, I would think if they started to be a threat a bigger carrier would just buy them or adopt a competitive plan to put them out of business - that's how Microsoft does it (disclamer I hate Microsoft). I wonder if you are right about it being the future. You probably are though. Next question is how far into the future? My guess would be after more network consolidations take place, how would all these carriers servive with a system like that?, and also after all voice traffic is packetized and goes VoIP. the VoIP part should be fairly soon anyway...

[helpermonkey]

Helpermonkey, you are out of control.

Is that a good thing?

[Daddyof3]

For all those who think flip is needed to protect the screen.
Here is something to keep your treo safe for centuries.
http://store.treocentral.com/content...adl=discussion

Very very funny! That kind of device just completely takes away the beauty.

[brynat]

"Bryant how did U get them to give U a 64K SIM Card w/o having to pay?

TIA from my T600 "

I had read on TC that the GSM 650 needed a 64 K SIM so rather than wait to get the new phone, I decided to be proactive. I just walked into the Cingular store and asked if theywould check what kind of sim card I had. I told them that I wanted a 64 K sim if I didn't have one. They said OK, checked my sim and changed it out for a new one. no charge. Now I just need a new phone....