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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by weridehonda
    fly everyday with Soutwest and never have any issues!
    Yes!!!!!!!!!!! I'm headed out on SouthWest tonight for a short holiday. This will be my first flight with the T600. I never had issues with the T180.

    Glad to hear that SW doesn't have issues.

    EDIT: Just thought I'd add that I gave up on United about 5 years ago. They treat customers like crap, never could get me in and out of an airport on time. My sister-in law works there, an I told her I'll never fly United again.

    I took my first SW flight last year fell in love. Always on time. Cheap! I'm flying from Chicago to Nebraska for $34 ! $34 won't even buy the gas to get there if wanted to drive. I don't even bother with other airlines, even though I have frequent flyer miles with three carriers. Hell, I get a free flight if I book one more with ATA. SouthWest seems THAT good.
    Last edited by gchomuk; 05/12/2004 at 12:03 PM.
  2. #62  
    Wow Talaria .... maybe you should switch to decaf?

    Quote Originally Posted by talaria
    Here goes, my dander is up now.
    That should be your first indicator that maybe you should take a deep breath before firing off. But, seeing as you didn't.....

    Quote Originally Posted by talaria
    dtoombs, when you claim your GSM Treo 600 causes interference near your car stereo what do you mean? Static I assume.

    First, your car radio is not made to the same specs as aviation radios such as the Collins, King or Narco radios I have had in my aircraft. And they are not installed in the same manner. Try some research under 'avionics.'

    Second, maybe you should mention the static to your mechanic the next time you have your car serviced. They have neat little do-dads that can solve that, irrelevant to this discussion, problem.
    So ... you're new around here. You don't know me, so there's no possible way you could have known that I was a professional sound engineer for several local bands for years - running audio for concerts in attendance of over 5,000 people. So give me the benefit of the doubt when I tell you that I know a thing or two about audio and interference.

    Yet - even if you didn't know that, as you so tactfully indicated in your message, "research" is your best friend. A quick google of the words "GSM" "radio" "interference" would yield -- as the very first link -- this site:

    Which clearly states....

    "Any radio transmitter has the potential to cause interference with other electronic equipment. GSM mobile phones, because they transmit data in short time division multiple access (TDMA) bursts, are often believed to cause worse interference than other types of mobile telephone. Interference from GSM mobile phones can often be heard on analog radios and fixed telephones."
    Not definitivite enough? A few more links down on Google, you'd find this page from GSMWorld:

    Which states things like....

    "At short range, the radio signal from a mobile phone may cause interference with electronic medical devices"
    Or other quotes on other pages, such as

    "The [hearing] aid user will hear a buzzing sound, which grows louder as the phone is moved nearer to the aid. Normally the GSM phone will only cause significant interference when it is closer than 2 metres from the hearing aid user.
    So, don't tell me that cell phones don't cause interference. They do. Perhaps you are on CDMA and you are not familiar with this phenomenon, so you're not as accustomed to it as us GSM users are ... but it's a fact that's been documented by people who are much smarter about this stuff than you or I are.

    But - do they interfere with "avionics"? I don't know, nor would I ever presume to try to make any sort of assessment in that regard. Certainly, I would hope that "avionics" would be immune to a certain amount of interference .... but you're missing my point -

    Quote Originally Posted by talaria
    I have had handheld cell phones since the days of the first 'brick' cell phones and have used them in and around my aircraft: fixed wing, rotary wing and sailplane (although not used while flying) and I have keep them on while flying and I have never seen anything that would suggest any kind of "interference" with my nav/comm radios, ELT, transponder, altitude encoder, Loran, GPS, VOR, LOC, marker beacon receiver, glide slope, etc. ( a lot of different combinations of terms, features, etc. applicable to the various systems I have had over time) but in the end NO INTERFERENCE!

    No wonder we have such a hard time killing this BS urban myth with inaccurate and uninformed comments like my Treo causes INTERFERENCE!
    Ok, ignoring the fact that I just proved that GSM radios cause interference, you're talking about one phone. I thought I was making my point clear---

    Quote Originally Posted by dtoombs
    In all honesty, I don't think the airlines, the FAA, or any private pilots are worried about a cell phone or two interfering with the electronics in an airplane enough to cause a severe loss of control. What I think they are afraid of is 300+ passengers ... ALL using their phones ... ALL through takeoff/landing (the only time you'd probably be able to maintain a signal anyway). So, it's not the single 600mW radio ... or even the 7 watt iridium radio .... it's 300+ 600mw radios all broadcasting at once inside of a narrow metal tube. Who knows what might happen?
    Can you honestly tell me that you're 100% certain that 300+ cell phones -- all transmitting at once -- on thousands of flights per day, would never ever cause a problem with "avionics"? I'll fully admit here to not knowing anything more about the inside of a plane than the difference between coach and first class .... but I think that it's certainly possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by talaria
    And the point of this thread is not that anyone here is suggesting we should be able to make calls or access data on our Treo 600s while in flight but that we SHOULD be allowed to use them in "Wireless Mode Off." There are no FAA regulations or federal rules or statutes that prevent that; only the ignorance of some officious, uninfomed functionary too lazy, stupid or both to get off their fat backsides and do a little research.
    While I won't agree or disagree with the last part of your statement, I will agree with you that we should be able to use the Treo in Wireless Off mode. Unfortunately, ingorance comes in all shapes and sizes in life -- sometimes in the form of people and other times in the form of corporations and corporate policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by talaria
    Flame away I have my nomex on I won't mind as I feel much better having got all that off my chest.
    Hope you enjoyed it. No hard feelings.
  3. santas's Avatar
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    My email to United Airlines

    From your web site:

    These electronic devices can be used in the cabin, but may not be used
    during takeoff and landing:

    Handheld computer games
    Portable CD and tape players
    Laptop computers/accessory printers/tape drives
    Portable VCRs/video players

    These electronic devices cannot be used on the airplane at any time:

    Cellular phones
    AM/FM transmitters-receivers
    Remote-controlled toys

    My question:

    I have a Treo 600 from PalmOne. This is a combination Palm PDA and
    phone. I know Palm PDA's fall under that category of 'computer' and
    it's OK to use them on the plane. I know cell phones aren't. On the
    Treo, you can turn off the phone portion of the device and use it in
    PDA only mode. I've used this frequently on planes with no problems. I've
    heard from other Treo owners that sometimes they're asked to not use
    the Treo on a flight even if "Wireless Mode" is off. Is there some way
    clarity can be added to this situation?

    Their response:

    Thank you for contacting us. As long as your device is not using
    cellular technology at any time during the flight, you should be able
    to use your electronic device. We thank you for your continued business.
    Your loyalty is important to United Airlines.

    Rich Martin
    United Airlines
    Customer Relations
    Less than 400 posts to get my own little treo icon!
  4. martinp13's Avatar
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    That is the correct answer, but a flight attendant still acts as God/Goddess on the plane, and holds your drink and peanuts in their whim of whims! If they say you can't use it, they don't care what Rich thinks or says, and waving a piece of paper at them isn't going to get you a full can of Coke later.

    Your best bet is to not be noticed "using a phone" as a PDA, and if you are challenged, politely show them the "Wireless Mode Off" message. If that doesn't work, smile, surrender, put away the device, and think the words "You're a moron" so intensely that they show up in red on your forehead while you smile at the flight attendant.
  5. #65  
    Bill Petro

    Everyone is right you'd be the most qualified to deal with this issue with United. I recommend with your credentials as a super frequent flier and position on a travel board of a Fortune 500 company you could get resolution to this issue. I recommend calling, United's corporate office. Don't ask for the CEO or Chairman (no one ever get through to them. Ask for the Sr. VP of Sales (I'm sure you can find his/her name on the web). This person has a vested interest in seeing you happy and can walk it up the chain of command to get you something on letterhead or something.

    Good luck and keep us informed of the outcome.
    Palm Professional -> Palm III-> Sprint Handspring Visor Deluxe -> Sprint Handspring Treo 300 -> Sprint Handspring Treo 600 -> Sprint Treo 650 -> Sprint Treo 700p
  6. santas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinp13
    That is the correct answer, but a flight attendant still acts as God/Goddess on the plane, and holds your drink and peanuts in their whim of whims! If they say you can't use it, they don't care what Rich thinks or says, and waving a piece of paper at them isn't going to get you a full can of Coke later.
    I'm sure you're right, but I printed out the email anyhow, and will wave it once to see what happens.

    I might get an extra can of Coke!
    Less than 400 posts to get my own little treo icon!
  7. zrs70's Avatar
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    Folk, UA specifically allows cell phones to be used after landing once the plane is off the active runway. Their web page has not been updated to reflect this yet. And as long as the cell/ treo's transmitter is off during the restricted times, all is fine.

    I got an e-mail from UA a few months ago with an apology regarding this very issue when the FA told me the treo was verboten.
  8. #68  

    Maybe we can come up with a crying room for all you babies that have to prove to a flight attendant that you are right and they are wrong.

    These people have a tough enough job to do without some crybaby geek having a temper tantrum about using their toy on the plane!

    Grow up!
    Scraps of paper>>Back of my hand>>Kyo 6035>>Treo 600>>Treo 650>>PPC6700(Sold on Fleabay)>>Treo 650>>Treo 700p>>Treo 755p and still thinking about an iPhone
  9. #69  
    I checked again with my sources and no word from the FCC yet regarding a revised onboard policy (in the flight attendant manual) about the Treo or other multi-use devices.

    On my recent UA flights, I tried used my T600 without first talking to any flight attendants like I normally do. Out of the eight segments, I was approached on six and each time I politely (and I emphasize politely) explained that the radio was off, I was allowed to go about my business without a problem. This includes while I was watching a recorded movie ala Kinoma. I had to pop the card out to prove it wasn't a TV, but I was left alone for the rest of the flight.

    Bottom line, it appears that in abscence of a definitive policy, the golden rule still applies.
    "That's right Ice-man, I am dangerous"
  10. #70  
    Fellow Treo Users:

    Looks like we finally have some resolution to the PDA/cell phone onboard flights issue:

    At least at United, a revision to the flight attendant (procedural) handbook that has just been released includes allowances for the use of an "airplane mode" on two-way transmitting devices. When asked by a flight attendant, a passenger must show that their device is not transmitting.

    This is probably (please note probably) indicative that the FCC has completed testing and other airlines should follow in short order.

    As I have posted previously, I would still try to be as polite as possible since the crew still has final say.

    Hope this helps.

    Happy flying!
    "That's right Ice-man, I am dangerous"
  11. #71  
    It's not reasonable to believe that you are going to whip out some FAA regulation or directive and convince a flight attendant that using your Treo is OK, when he or she already believes it is not. They have other things on their mind, they honestly believe they are doing as they're trained, they can't know if you are a reliable source of information, and at the root of it all they are probably really a bit scared that you'll somehow crash the plane and it will be their fault. You won't change that by waving a few papers, which they can't know you haven't falsified.

    The ONLY way to address this problem is to have the airlines train their flight attendents better, and that happens before you even get to the plane or not at all. Since the airlines have an understandable CYA attitude, and so does the FAA, only the pressure of lost business is going to convince them to better train their staff.

    There really is no other logical way.
  12. #72  
    It's not reasonable to believe that you are going to whip out some FAA regulation or directive and convince a flight attendant that using your Treo is OK, when he or she already believes it is not. They have other things on their mind, they honestly believe they are doing as they're trained,....
    Mercer, read the message a little closer. This is in fact being put in the Flight Attendants Procedural Manual. It is part of their training now!

  13. #73  
    Aloha or anyone else,

    If it is indeed true that there has been a revision to the F.A.'s manual, can you post the wording and also the page number or whatever for reference? This may be helpful if this comes up again for me and others.

  14. #74  
    The following is a direct quote from the Delta Airlines Flight Attendant Manual. It follows a table that lists electronic devices and if or when they can be used.
    Exception: Some personal assistive devices (PDAs) and cell phones have the capability for the user to turn off the communications function. If the transmitting capabability is turned off on these PDAs and cell phones, they may be used during flight for playing games, etc.
    Now be advised that this is only a bargaining chip. Just before the chart it says...
    Delta's policy regarding the use of electronic devices is outlined below. This information is also available in "Sky" magazine. Crewmembers may ask passengers operating an electronic device to turn it off at any time.
    So you could have a note from God himself and a crew member can tell you to turn your Treo off for no other reason then he or she doesn't like the tone of your voice. So be nice.

  15. #75  
    Fellow users:

    The only information I have regarding the flight attentdant manual is that it is contained in Update Bulletin #10. These are FAA mandated updates to their manual which must be carried and up-to-date at all times (or else the individual is subject to FAA fines). I will see if I can get further information, but this is the guide to which every UA flight attendant is bound.

    While I'm sure that there might be a few testy FAs out there, give it a couple of weeks and the majority of UA flight attendants will be aware of the procedures. As the rest of the industry catches on, it should be easier to use your 600 onboard any flight (in theory).
    "That's right Ice-man, I am dangerous"
  16. mgauss's Avatar
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    I guess the Treo needs a "cover" to hide the antenna...a top hat if you will. That way it will look like a normal Palm.
  17. #77  
    Just take your Treo 600 handbook with you. On the page where it explains about the Wireless Mode option it also writes in detail "can be used during air travel".
  18. #78  
    Take your Treo 600 handbook with you on the flight. On the page explaining the function of Wireless Mode Function it is written that your Treo is allowed on air travel.
    Common reasoning of the airline would be for some idots that leave Wireless on.
  19. #79  
    Just got back from a month long trip to Africa. Flew about 50,000 mles in that month with Luthansia and used my T600 all the time. Gotta love chess tiger on those long flights......

    Of course my T600 is from Sprint, so even if my wireless mode was on, it would not be picking up anyting due to CDMA....
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by mslancer
    Just take your Treo 600 handbook with you. On the page where it explains about the Wireless Mode option it also writes in detail "can be used during air travel".
    Like I said before, you could bring a note from God and the flight attendant has every right to tell you not to use your Treo no matter what the rules are.

    But listen, think this through for a moment. If the Southwest Airline's Flight Attendant In Flight Manual, which was quoted here earlier, specifically forbids the use of dual devices like the Treo, he or she would be in jeoperdy of losing their jobs if they allowed you to use your Treo in direct defiance of the manual. Each individual airline makes their own rules and puts them into the On Board Manual. the FAA governs what is the minimum requirements and restrictions, and the airline will usually err on the side of caution, ie. be more restrictive then the FAA.

    The On Board Manual IS a note from the all mighty. Every Flight Attendant must have one in their possesion while working a flight. FAA inspectors randomly board flights accross the US and if they ask a Flight Attendant to see thier manual and the Flight Atendant does not have one, the Flight Attendant could be fined by the FAA and be fired by the airline .

    It is an absolute waste of time and unfair to take this fight up with the Flight Attendants. They are just doing their jobs.
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