[The Chupacabra]

I'm sure you'll delete this, but I felt you deserved to be warned, since you probably have no idea what you're getting yourselves into.

I spoke to a contact at Palm today about the Treo 600 unlock issue and they actually were already aware of what was going on here. Apparently Handspring - and now Palm - have monitored Treocentral and know about the unlock hack. While it may seem all quite innocent fun and everyone is enjoying the excitement of having collectively managed to break the lock, this has major ramifications for Palm. (By the way, the unlock would have been VERY difficult to do without the benefit of Mol's crash and Handspring's own update. Palm could never have anticipated their files becoming exposed after a crash like that, but this excuse won't matter to the carriers...)

As I'm sure you're fully aware, Handspring/Palm are very dependent upon the carriers and are pinning their hopes for survival on their PDA-phone lineup. Angering the carriers is the last thing they can afford to do. These phones are currently heavily subsidized by carriers and won't sell without the subsidy. The carriers expect to make their money back with data and voice charges, but this assumes everyone remains locked to the carrier long enough for this to happen. As soon as the carriers learn of the unlock, heads will roll at Palm. Treocentral will be targeted as long as they play a part in this. Discussing theory is one thing - allowing posts to unlocking files is an entirely different matter. (And don't expect the excuse that posters are fully responsible for their own actions will hold up.)

I would strongly suggest you immediately do two things: State clearly at the top of every discussion area that posting hacks/cracks and links to them is not permitted; remove all such links now and ensure they aren't re-posted. Treocentral may just be a hobby site kept alive by a couple of people, but you are opening yourselves up for a world of hurt. Trust me. I won't say anything more about this, but it would be a shame to see you pay the price for your enthusiasm to "help out". You may be getting some bad news in a couple of weeks. At least try to make it look like you don't condone illegal activity.

I wish you the best of luck.

[derek985]

Purple? Is that you?

[ToeCutter]

I gotta agree with the Chup on this one.

I've been monitoring that thread and I too was quite surprised by the "lack of discretion" being practiced by the posters.

I'd hate to see TreoCentral, Palm or Handspring suffer serious consequences due to the desire of a few forum members to have unlocked phones. I'm not being critical of the hacking the ROM, only their said lack of discretion surrounding the matter. The hacked ROM should have never been linked directly from the forum.

That said, I think the vast majority of forum members view the patched ROM as a curiosity and nothing more. I think few are willing to experiment with their rather expensive Treo's.

Let's all cross our fingers and hope for the best...

[horsmanp]

Unlocking your phone does not get you out of your contract, so the carriers really have nothing to complain about. If I am willing to pay the $200 early termination fee, and unlock my phone myself then so be it. Nothing PlamOne or the Carrier can do about it.

As long as Treocentral keeps deleting the files then they should be fine, they cant control what gets posted, and if they do a good job monitoring then that should be enough.

Its going to happen regardless.

[derek985]

Sheesh - can nothing be fun anymore? Can nobody be creative or inquisitive or contrary or non-politically correct? Or are all of you pushy, self-appointed moral compasses so conforming and institutionalized that you're now programmed not only to avoid any risk taking venture in your own lives but you now have so much fear that you feel it necessary to be the hall monitor for everyone else?

As long as people are aware of the risks involved, they do not need anyone's parental guidance.

I hate being critical without being constructive so here's my suggestion to all of you... Worry about yourselves!

[giggsy]

I could see why companies might get pissed at unlocking, but when you consider that the Cingluar 600's were being sold unlocked by HS (presumably with Cingular's say-so) at the same price as the (locked) ATT ones, the argument doesn't hold much water. If it's good business under Cingular, I don't see how ATT can complain. If they provide good service, customers will buy their service; if they don't, they deserve to lose customers.

[RC46]

I think the Chupacabra ate Purple now it is spewing Purples crap.

Everyone who pays big $ for a phone and is smart enough to figure out how to unlock it deserves an unlocked phone.

[winebrat]

Originally posted by giggsy
I could see why companies might get pissed at unlocking, but when you consider that the Cingluar 600's were being sold unlocked by HS (presumably with Cingular's say-so) at the same price as the (locked) ATT ones, the argument doesn't hold much water. If it's good business under Cingular, I don't see how ATT can complain. If they provide good service, customers will buy their service; if they don't, they deserve to lose customers.

I agree 100%.

[horsmanp]

But it’s just a forum, with a very standard board... I have seen a lot better forums in terms of customization and added features elsewhere.

For Christ sake every time I get an email about a post, it takes me to VISORCENTRAL.COM!!!

CAN'T THEY EVEN FIX THAT!

I do like the community here, but what’s to stop us from simply starting a new forum if this one gets shut down? To me it would be no big loss as I come here for the community and the people posting, not the actual people and minds behind treocentral.

[Lighting1]

Derek - I'm with you. I swear, someone told Chupacabra how to get under my skin. Happens almost every time he wastes valuable space with his posts. He seems to switch from moral barometer to corporate kiss-a**.

[Woof]

What I'd like to know is this. Does my purchase of this device bind me to an agreement stating I will not attempt to modify the core software in any way? I would think that sort of a stipulation would have to be disclosed upfront. Especially considering the HUGE developer community for PalmOS and its devices.

So what's next? Is PalmOne gonna take away our rights to load software or hack the phones so they do all the things that should have been included in the first place (the examples are too many to list)? And if Handspring was selling an unlocked phone on one carrier what difference would it make if others were unlocked.

I have looked through the software on my device and in the manual and I can't find any such restriction.

I would also think that a statement of noninvolvement by the hosts of this site should exclude them from liability for the content therein. I mean it works on radio shows and infomercials. The stations are always saying the opinion of the host or guest does not reflect that of the station nor does it represent the stations position on a particular situation.

Any lawyer types out there?



Woof

[The Chupacabra]

Originally posted by giggsy
I could see why companies might get pissed at unlocking, but when you consider that the Cingluar 600's were being sold unlocked by HS (presumably with Cingular's say-so) at the same price as the (locked) ATT ones, the argument doesn't hold much water. If it's good business under Cingular, I don't see how ATT can complain. If they provide good service, customers will buy their service; if they don't, they deserve to lose customers.

Treo 600 GSM pricing

- AT&T - from Handspring - with plan - LOCKED = $499
- AT&T - from Handspring - with no plan - LOCKED = $499
- AT&T - from AT&T - with plan - LOCKED = $549
- Cingular - from Handspring - with plan - UNLOCKED = $499
- Cingular - from Handspring - with no plan - UNLOCKED = $699
- Cingular - from Cingular - with plan - UNLOCKED? (their rep claimed it's LOCKED) = $499
- Cingular - from Cingular - with no plan - UNLOCKED? (their rep claimed it's LOCKED) = $699
- Unbranded GSM - from Handspring - UNLOCKED = $699

You don't really believe phone pricing justifies self-unlocking, do you? If you bought a Cingular phone without a plan, you had to pay full price* - i.e. no carrier subsidy - so Cingular would not have to worry about what you did with the phone. Since AT&T phones are locked, they are subsidized. They don't charge more for the phone without contract since there is nowhere else you can use it [or so they thought ].

*But some people may have been able to order the Cingular phone for $499 without a contract due to sloppiness on Handspring's part.

[horsmanp]

the $200 contract termination then everything is square... Its not as though unlocking your phone magically unlocks your contract....

I think its a moot point.

[middle_man]

The rules are already posted at the top of every forum. Making a sticky thread specifically against unlocking isn't going to discourage it much.

Whats the problem with hacking the ROM? It's our phone. We're not ripping out Palm's (handspring?) code for our own use. It was simply modified to meet our needs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

In regards to the subsidized Treos, as mentioned previously, the $200 early termination fee (may vary from carrier to carrier) covers any problems with the carrier. Oh, you're assuming that ATT is expecting me to stay for several contracts with the same phone so they make heaps of money? Well, I guess you and apparently ATT are wrong! (Well I am going to stay with ATT, surely not with the same phone though).

Thanks for your time, effort, and consideration though!

[Woof]

Did you all know that Chupacabra means goatsucker?

How appropriate is that?




Woof

[JTREOB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by horsmanp
the $200 contract termination then everything is square... Its not as though unlocking your phone magically unlocks your contract....

I think its a moot point. [/QUOTe

as a user it should be a moot point.

However, I don't doubt that palmone would be concerned at anything that has the potential to p off the carriers, and if not controlled this has the potential.

carriers control this game. they decide who and what goes on their lines.

palmone paid 160 million for hs in large part due to their smart phone carrier relations, which palm sorely lacked. i wouldn't be suprised if they consider the unlock situation concerning at this point.

i have no doubt they also have the ability, technically speaking, to stop it as well. my bet is they will.

[middle_man]

i have no doubt they also have the ability, technically speaking, to stop it as well. my bet is they will.

It is nearly impossible to stop anything from propogating once it's on the internet. What are they going to do... recall all our Treos?

[jskier]

Originally posted by Woof
Any lawyer types out there?

for a thorough discussion of fair use of copyrighted materials see http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/s...pers/skier.htm

two cases have held that decompilation of code is "fair use"
see:
Sega Enterprises Ltd. v. Accolade, Inc., 977 F.2d 1510 (9th Cir.(Cal.), Oct 20, 1992)
and
Atari Games Corp. v. Nintendo of America Inc., 975 F.2d 832 (Fed.Cir.(Cal.), Sep 10, 1992)


BTW, if PalmOne reps are REALLY reading this board, then PLEASE make midi ringtones *louder* with the next patch!!!

[JTREOB]

Originally posted by middle_man


It is nearly impossible to stop anything from propogating once it's on the internet. What are they going to do... recall all our Treos?

no recalls, just changes to future ones perhaps.

if one considers carriers and thus palmones perspective, it shouldn't be that hard to understand why it could be a concern to them.

legally i don't think anything can be done. technically i know they can wrench it up. at the very least to the point that warranty's are void. adequate explaination of unacceptable conditions or practices in the terms are all that's required.. it's a rather simple process and perfectly legal from that point forward.

.

[samgab]

Hi Everybody,

Ok I know business is business but here is what I wanted to buy :

TREO 600 with AZERTY keyboard. No site ! Even at handspring.fr or handspring.com. The only solution : Orange France with their plan. I am living in Africa so their plan don't interest me. What could I do ? Just crying ? No ! I bought a phone from Orange at the higher price and unlocked it (they have to unlock it when you buy it at the higher price but they did not want to do it ! I had to wait 6 months). So Mr Chupacabra, I don't really care about what Handspring or Palm are thinking, they just have to let everyone buy their machines without obliging to take a plan. Do they worry about people living in "no plan" countries ? Did they propose a plan for us ?