[metsfan]

I hate personal attacks, I've been moving towards the bush/cheney ticket ever since they questioned why He waited more than 7 minutes during 9/11. It's abominable that you ask why a man doesn't flinch when he knows the cameras are on him at probably the greatest terroristic attack on American soil.
...
But I absolutely detest attacks on a person's convictions/life, but I do believe an explanation is required when asked. So I can understand why the swiftboats ads caused such an uproar - they need an explanation because this man has played both sides of the field on many issues.

So, Bush, as President, needs no explanation for why he waited for seven minutes after being told the WTC was attacked (not to act on something irrationally, but to stop what he was doing and start gathering information as soon as possible... every minute counts), but Kerry needs to explain about something that's been public record, documented, and never challened for 35 years, based on the word of Bush supporters?

That doesn't seem quite right to me.

[m00se]

Well, I'm just voting for Bush because Rush Limbaugh told me to. Oh, and I actually don't think McCain's endorsement means much to Bush supporters. I can't think of any conservative voting block which cares much about McCain's thinking. (unless you live in Arizona, I guess) However, if McCain would have defected to Kerry, that would have been huge for Kerry.

Hence the title of this thread?....

[heberman]

...i'm still kinda miffed NEITHER convention got coverage from local networks. Except covering the acception of the nomination.

Agreed, for both conventions. The airways are public property, and should be used for the public interest, not just for network profits. The networks should be forced to carry both conventions throughout the week in prime time, or maybe even the whole day.

We can get by without Buffy for a couple of days in the interest of democratic debate, can't we?

[heberman]

but Kerry needs to explain about something that's been public record, documented, and never challened for 35 years, based on the word of Bush supporters?

I think they are more accurately described as anti-Kerry than pro-Bush. Many of the Swift Boat guys are democrats.

Also, Kerry has been challenged throughout the years, but the media is only now picking up the story. Many of the Swiftees, especially O'Neil, have been dogging Kerry since the war. They even had a debate decades ago.

[metsfan]

Yeah, that's no big deal at all that thousands more haven't died, is it? No great achievement that numerous terrorist plots have been foiled. No big deal that Osama's threats of bigger and more devastating attacks on US cities have not happened. Who cares if more attacks have been avoided and more people are still living, rights metsfan?

Your comment has got to be the most cynical statement I have heard in a long, long time. I guess you think that we better not be happy, as Americans and as human beings, with our successes against terrorists who have repeatedly declared to bring this country to its knees. Anybody but Bush, right brother? Whatever.

That was hardly the point. I think it's great that there were no terrorist attacks in the past three years, and that people haven't been killed. I just think you can't attribute that to Bush (or any President). How many attacks were there in there in the three years after the first WTC bombing? None. Do I attribute that to Clinton? Hardly.

I think having no terrorist attacks should be (and is) the norm.

[heberman]

That was hardly the point. I think it's great that there were no terrorist attacks in the past three years, and that people haven't been killed. I just think you can't attribute that to Bush (or any President). How many attacks were there in there in the three years after the first WTC bombing? None. Do I attribute that to Clinton? Hardly.

I think having no terrorist attacks should be (and is) the norm.

Look, you are they guy who said that having no terrorist attacks is "hardly any great achievement," apparently just to keep Bush from any credit. The credit for avoiding the attacks just doesn't belong to Bush personally, but to the country as a whole. It is an achievement we should all be proud of as Americans, especially the guys laying their lives on the line.

[metsfan]

I think they are more accurately described as anti-Kerry than pro-Bush. Many of the Swift Boat guys are democrats.

Also, Kerry has been challenged throughout the years, but the media is only now picking up the story. Many of the Swiftees, especially O'Neil, have been dogging Kerry since the war. They even had a debate decades ago.

I just read that debate. It was about Kerry's claim of war crimes being the norm in Vietnam, mostly, and about Kerry's anti-war activities after he was there. I don't see a thing about his purple hearts or bronze star. Can you point me to anything where these awards were challenged before the current election?

Debate is here.

(On a side note, does anyone else think it's hilarious the way the commercial spots by Cavett are spread throughout the debate?)

[metsfan]

Look, you are they guy who said that having no terrorist attacks is "hardly any great achievement," apparently just to keep Bush from any credit. The credit for avoiding the attacks just doesn't belong to Bush personally, but to the country as a whole. It is an achievement we should all be proud of as Americans, especially the guys laying their lives on the line.

My point is that it is NOT an achievement. Allowing terrorist attacks is a FAILURE. Preventing them should be normal, not anything special. I'm NOT at all blaming Bush for 9/11 here. Don't try to say I am. I blame intelligence agencies, and part of that blame rests of both of those Presidents.

Let me put it this way: I drive to work every day. Have for three years now since I got out of school. I have never gotten into an accident on my commute to work. This is hardly an achievement of any sort. Getting into an accident would be a failure. Not getting into an accident is EXPECTED, not anything special.

Related, over 40,000! people in the US have died in car accidents in each of the past four years. 3000 died in a terrorist attack in the past 10 years. I don't see the Bush administration (or any, to be fair) spending $87 billion to cut down those numbers. I don't mean in any way to belittle the deaths of the people killed by terrorist attacks. They're horrible. However, there are many things killing many more people, and hardly anyone feels afraid when they get in a car. Unless I'm behind the wheel.

(Source of car numbers: http://www.madd.org/stats/0,1056,1298,00.html)

[heberman]

(On a side note, does anyone else think it's hilarious the way the commercial spots by Cavett are spread throughout the debate?)

Thanks for the debate link. Here's the segway into a commercial I liked:

"MR. CAVETT: Mr. Kerry, I expect you do have something to say to that. We have a message however from Calgon. Here is how a bath can smooth and soften your skin, leaving you radiant and refreshed with Calgon Bath Oil Beads."

Was Cavett talking directly to Kerry here?

[treobk214]

here we go again with the anti-bush spin on many of the above posts. listen, many are dug in with kerry and aren't budging. that's fine. that's your right.
but we weren't the ones who started all the nonsense with " maybe this time bush can actually win" so yes, " yawn, " its back to the same old slanted slights, cheap shots and little snickers against bush in any derogatory way we can, right? who started those little snide comments again? yawn.
so like I've said. you've got your reasons to vote kerry, and others have theirs for voting bush. you can't try belittling and undercutting bush all ya want. the results will be in in 65 days or less. that will tell the story, won't it?

[treobk214]

metsfan, did you see clinton or any president in history do anything about those traffic death numbers? wow. when people get desperate they pull things from outta their you know what! um that's a bizarre analogy. but if ya wanna go with it... no ones stoppin ya! ( shakin my head)

[metsfan]

metsfan, did you see clinton or any president in history do anything about those traffic death numbers? wow. when people get desperate they pull things from outta their you know what! um that's a bizarre analogy. but if ya wanna go with it... no ones stoppin ya! ( shakin my head)

Heh... check my post. I edited it to add something in parens (before you posted this - you can check the edit time. I guess I can't edit it again, now).

It was not a dig at the Bush administration specifically (about the cars). It was about the war on terror, and the war in Iraq. We're putting a lot of resources and lives into something that, statistically, is a very small threat to the lives of Americans.

[snerdy]

did you see clinton or any president in history do anything about those traffic death numbers?

You're getting a little silly here. After 0.30 seconds with Google, that's exactly what I see. I'm sure searching for, like, a full second would provide even more information on this topic. In fact, maybe even Bush helped to reduce the number of deaths caused by traffic accidents! Who knows? I certainly don't know, but I'm at least 0.30 seconds ahead here.

treobk214 -- how much research are you putting into these arguments of yours?

Edit: oh, metsfan has this one covered. Oh well, flame on.

[treobk214]

ok, metsfan, I guess that's an apology I owe you as well for jumping the gun and glancing over posts too quicklywithout reading it carefully. little hectic today.
I think ill ease up on the trigger here for a while since I realize im gettin a bit too quick on the draw. sorry, partner! misunderstanding. apologies.

[Woof]

My point is that it is NOT an achievement. Allowing terrorist attacks is a FAILURE. Preventing them should be normal, not anything special. I'm NOT at all blaming Bush for 9/11 here. Don't try to say I am. I blame intelligence agencies, and part of that blame rests of both of those Presidents.

Let me put it this way: I drive to work every day. Have for three years now since I got out of school. I have never gotten into an accident on my commute to work. This is hardly an achievement of any sort. Getting into an accident would be a failure. Not getting into an accident is EXPECTED, not anything special.

Metsfan your analogy would have some validity if when driving your car you could expect that some of the people on the road were intent on killing you. Since it is very likely that the other drivers are also intent on not getting into accidents, it makes no sense. It is also invalid due to the word accident. Car accidents occur for lots of reasons, none of which include malicious destruction of others for religious or political gain. Those that might occur for those reasons would hardly be considered accidents.

Perhaps this definition will help you.
ac·ci·dent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ks-dnt, -dnt)
n.

1.
1. An unexpected and undesirable event, especially one resulting in damage or harm: car accidents on icy roads.

If you are suggesting that terrorist attacks are somehow accidents you got more problems than your dislike for Bush.

[sledgie]

Welp, I was hoping to hear a little more about analogies and such with how Arnuld is running CA and how Bush plans to run economy in US but oh well. I do want to say Arnuld is a great speaker and motivator; I understand why he won california. even if he wasnt "hollywood popular" he would have put up an excellent fight in a very democratic state. i think his comment at the beginning "True Lies" turned me down a little though... but he recovered very quickly by showing similar points about if you are like this... you are a republican. never quite considered myself a "republican" but I guess the group has a wide enough pool for people of different views to jump in but still have a solid core. I did like how he made the point that other countries still see us as a "light" towards which they move towards - and freedom and democracy provides shelter- that made me feel like 99% of the world doesnt hate us already
I do like the interjection of humor in a lot of these speeches "don't be economic girlie men!" hilarious how did you guys feel about Arnold's rhetoric? I want to hear from democrats republicans and independants alike (anybody that watched it ) did anyone think he was just another "hollywood" spurting nonsense out his mouth? overall i've been generally impressed these 2 nights, although i think the First Lady couldn't possibly top that speech he gave, which was unfortunate.

[Woof]

So, Bush, as President, needs no explanation for why he waited for seven minutes after being told the WTC was attacked (not to act on something irrationally, but to stop what he was doing and start gathering information as soon as possible... every minute counts), but Kerry needs to explain about something that's been public record, documented, and never challened for 35 years, based on the word of Bush supporters?

That doesn't seem quite right to me.

This 7 minute crap makes my blood boil. You have no right to question what anyone did in reaction to the news about the towers being hit. Do you honestly think no one did anything until the President said to do something? So I guess the airlines waitied until Bush called and said check on your planes. Or maybe the people calling from the planes were put on hold til the President could react. You comment is so Michael Moore it's pathetic.

What do you think would have been the reaction if Bush had stormed out of that classroom in a panic? One thing for sure the liberal media and people like you would have been pissed that he scared the kids in that class.

I personally sat stunned in front of the tv with my head in my hands, unable to speak for at least 30 minutes. I was late for work that day because I couldnt move. I can only wish I could have reacted in 7 minutes if i were in his position.

[snerdy]

Metsfan your analogy would have some validity if when driving your car you could expect that some of the people on the road were intent on killing you. Since it is very likely that the other drivers are also intent on not getting into accidents, it makes no sense.

It's not exactly the same situation, but that's how analogies work. As long as we're quoting dictionary.com:

a·nal·o·gy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-nl-j)
n. pl. a·nal·o·gies

1. Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.

2. A comparison based on such similarity. See Synonyms at likeness.

So even if metsfan's analogy isn't exactly the same, it is instructive. He may, however, still dislike Bush.

And now, the obvious joke: Are "some of the people on the road ... intent on killing [me]?" Of course they are! I mean, have you seen how those drunken maniacs drive?!

[sledgie]

I'd have to agree. I never bring this point up until someone starts bashing President Bush's actions but I say basically the same thing: How long did it take for you to move after you heard and saw what happened? 30 minutes is fast. I dont think I ate breakfast until after 10:30, and I was up at 7.45. What more could he have possible done in 7 minutes? That's 420 seconds. I probably spent that long typing this.

[metsfan]

I'd have to agree. I never bring this point up until someone starts bashing President Bush's actions but I say basically the same thing: How long did it take for you to move after you heard and saw what happened? 30 minutes is fast. I dont think I ate breakfast until after 10:30, and I was up at 7.45. What more could he have possible done in 7 minutes? That's 420 seconds. I probably spent that long typing this.

Seeing as the second tower was hit only 18 minutes after the first, I would say a lot could be done in 7 minutes. Like the executive order that would have been needed to shoot the plane down. It's possible that 5 minutes wouldn't be enough time to get fighters up to do it, but 10 would have (I don't know about these times, but they seem plausible). I'm not saying this information was available to him, but it certainly could have been, had he acted earlier (and everyone at the FAA did their job, which may or may not have been true.)

As for me, I didn't know anything about it until I was woken up by a phone call when the first tower collapsed, since I live in California, and don't wake up so early.

(18 minute number found here.)

Thanks, snerdy, for the response to Woof.