[E.LesterBrown]

Some folks trying to call other folks unpatriotic because they dont like there politics, I don't care about that Clem. Also I think both on the left and the right, there is too much repeating of stuff other people said and not enough thinking for themselves. Thats why I want to learn more about this health care thing myself, I do intend to read up on it. I doubt that I can read it all, but it seems interesting to me.

[Micael]

Now Clem, are you trying to say you read it up to page 149 and these are your comments? Or did you do a fast copy and paste of someone else's talking points? Don't fib now, I'll google ya.... I learnt how to do that recently.

The only one here thats not copying and pasting here is you, Lester

[clemgrad85]

Some folks trying to call other folks unpatriotic because they dont like there politics, I don't care about that Clem. Also I think both on the left and the right, there is too much repeating of stuff other people said and not enough thinking for themselves. Thats why I want to learn more about this health care thing myself, I do intend to read up on it. I doubt that I can read it all, but it seems interesting to me.

EXCELLENT....then my post was worth it if it will get you to learn more about it. Nuttin wrong with that? Huh? Don't worry about reading it all, apparently Obama hasn't read much on it either as when he was asked a question regarding it yesterday, he said he didn't know much about that topic and then went on to discuss how it was a crisis. In other words.....don't worry about the details Lester....Big Government will take care of you and everyone else....just trust them, right....just trust them....they know what is best for all of us....trust them. I'm sure Obama will show his reading skills tonight....he is an excellent reader! I just hope the prompter doesn't go down or he's in deep do-do.

[Bujin#IM]

Getting scared Bujin that everyone might discover what the plan is....or rather....isn't? You seem so interested in this....have you read anything concrete on what it is or are you simply going by the liberal talking points of: 1) CRISIS 2) FREE HEALTH CARE 3) EVERYTHING COVERED 4) FREE HEALTH CARE 5) MAKE THE RICH PAY FOR IT 6) FREE HEALTH CARE

I think it's funny that you interpret pointing out the actual facts printed in the bill, and showing that the talking points mentioned are factually inaccurate, is a sign of fear. Are you that afraid of facts that contradict your ideology that you don't actually check for accuracy? Who is the one who is afraid?

[kabamm]

Oh sure. Trust the 'free market' that got us in the mess we're in. We already have rationing and non-doctors making health care decisions. A public option is a necessity.

[Bujin#IM]

EXCELLENT....then my post was worth it if it will get you to learn more about it. Nuttin wrong with that? Huh? Don't worry about reading it all, apparently Obama hasn't read much on it either as when he was asked a question regarding it yesterday, he said he didn't know much about that topic and then went on to discuss how it was a crisis. In other words.....don't worry about the details Lester....Big Government will take care of you and everyone else....just trust them, right....just trust them....they know what is best for all of us....trust them. I'm sure Obama will show his reading skills tonight....he is an excellent reader! I just hope the prompter doesn't go down or he's in deep do-do.

Are you at all bothered that the talking points you posted don't actually support your assertions? I agree that the details are important, but they should be the actual details, and not something you copied/pasted from a site like freerepublic.com without checking for actual...y'know, accuracy.

What's more important to you: the spin or the facts?

[clemgrad85]

Are you at all bothered that the talking points you posted don't actually support your assertions? I agree that the details are important, but they should be the actual details, and not something you copied/pasted without checking for actual...y'know, accuracy.

They looked accurate to me.....however....I can understand how it might be difficult to interpret what they scribbled down in a rush. I think the fear is not wanting to read what the truth IS. Do your really think all your treatments and prescriptions will be covered by the government plan? Really? The will have a "committee" that will determine what is covered and what is not covered. I noticed you didn't comment when I asked this question in an earlier post. Check with other government run plans....they don't pay for everything....OMG....that sounds like the evil insurance companies! You guys need a dose of reality....oops....not sure that is covered under the government plan.....

[Bujin#IM]

They looked accurate to me......

Everything looks accurate if they conform to one's own preconceived ideology. That's why fact-checking is a good thing.

The will have a "committee" that will determine what is covered and what is not covered. I noticed you didn't comment when I asked this question in an earlier post.

Actually, look above and you'll see that I did. In this plan, a committee with very comprehensive membership decides on standards for coverage, not to sit in judgment of your individual case.

A committee, by the way, already determines if you'll be covered - they are in the employ of the insurance companies. And they receive bonuses if they can find a reason...however obscure...to drop you when you get sick. This is standard practice, and former insurance officials have testified to this fact to Congress.

[Micael]

Oh sure. Trust the 'free market' that got us in the mess we're in. We already have rationing and non-doctors making health care decisions. A public option is a necessity.

Huh? That's quite a leap. I guess any system that has any issues needs to be controlled by the government? Because hey, we all know what a great job the government does....

[Bujin#IM]

Huh? That's quite a leap. I guess any system that has any issues needs to be controlled by the government? Because hey, we all know what a great job the government does....

You really shouldn't denigrate our troops like that....they work for the government. Anyone who doesn't support our troops isn't a real American!

(tongue firmly in cheek - I thought I'd try a Republican tactic for a change)

[clemgrad85]

Everything looks accurate if they conform to one's own preconceived ideology. That's why fact-checking is a good thing.

Again....I did fast check....well.....you got me.....I didn't read 1017 pages.....but when I reference those points, they appeared to be right on.....sounds like you read them, probably were shocked, and your brain won't let you believe that Big Brother would actually do that. Serenity Now......take a deeeeeeep breath......I think Americans are finally seeing through this massive bill that no one truly understands nor can afford. Obama will spin his words tonight....getting some folks to feel like the sky is falling again....but even though this is a dangerous statement, I have to think Americans won't let the government bend us all over.....oops....again, not sure that is covered.....

[Cr12]

lets talk about tort reform.
simple math tells you this will bring down costs, we had a family friend that was a fantastic thorasic sp? surgeon, he retired 10 years early due to malpractice insurance costing over 50 % of what he made. tort lawyers have ruined the healthcare system, and its not gonna change, obama is indeed a lawyer, you think he is going to ******* on all his buddies and do the sensible solution. probably not.

[Bujin#IM]

Again....I did fast check....well.....you got me.....I didn't read 1017 pages.....but when I reference those points, they appeared to be right on.....sounds like you read them, probably were shocked, and your brain won't let you believe that Big Brother would actually do that.

No, actually I read them, checked them against the bill itself, and found that they were just plain wrong. Not "a different interpretation", but simply dead wrong.
Which is more than you did before you posted them as "truth"

You didn't need to read 1017 pages, but perhaps the actual bullets would have been a minimal effort. It's okay - I know it's easier to simply follow along than to check facts for yourself.

[Bujin#IM]

lets talk about tort reform.
simple math tells you this will bring down costs,

Tort reform is certainly essential, but the math also tells us that it won't make an appreciable difference in the bottom line. Estimates are that, including legal fees, insurance costs, and payouts, the cost of lawsuits comes to less than one-half of 1 percent of health-care spending.

A Harvard study showed that more than 90 percent of medical claims investigated showed evidence of medical injury, which means they weren't frivolous. In 60 percent of these cases, the injury resulted from physician wrongdoing. In a quarter of the claims, the patient died.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/pre...s05102006.html

A study by the Robert Wood Johnson foundation looked at states that have implemented caps or other tort reforms in the past, and found that they only had a modest impact on the growth of costs.

http://www.rwjf.org/pr/synthesis/rep...olicybrief.pdf

So tort reform is certainly important, and would indeed reduce costs. Unfortunately, it's not a silver bullet to fix our health care issues.

[Micael]

Where is all this reform is the government running healthcare???

It's this kind of mis-information that gets people riled up unnecessarily (and a ploy by conservatives to keep things the way they are--a state win which they're making tons of money off the healthcare system as it is). The creation of a public option insurance plan for the uninsured doesn't suddenly make the government run healthcare.

These stupid arguments were exactly the same when they enacted Medicare in 1965. They didn't hold then and they don't hold now.

First off, stop saying people are making stupid arguments. If you don't respect their positions, fine. But be polite.

Second, of course the bill is about a public option, and doesn't say a thing about the government taking over healthcare. But the fact is that will be the end result. Its been explained numerous times in this thread.

[clemgrad85]

No, actually I read them, checked them against the bill itself, and found that they were just plain wrong. Not "a different interpretation", but simply dead wrong.

Which is more than you did before you posted them as "truth".

LOL.....say what you'd like Bujin....the words don't lie....you just can't understand that Obama....the one who walks on water (is that is ankle dipping below the water line?).....is trying to slip one by you. Actually, that isn't true....my bad....he hasn't read it either. Who writes these things anyway? Apparently Obama hasn't read it....Congress hasn't read it....isn't it a little scary that the ones who want it in place didn't write it and don't read it?

[Micael]

You really shouldn't denigrate our troops like that....they work for the government. Anyone who doesn't support our troops isn't a real American!

(tongue firmly in cheek - I thought I'd try a Republican tactic for a change)

How many years did you spend in our military, Bujin?

[clemgrad85]

How many years did you spend in our military, Bujin?

Or rather....how many anti-war protests has he marched in while our soldiers fought for his right to do so? Since Obama hasn't exactly pulled all the troops back yet like he promised his liberal buddies, I'm sure Obama-care is what they are hoping for to make them a believer in "the one" again. Ooops.....is that Obama's knee dipping below the water line now?

[Micael]

I know what the conservatives get by keeping things the way they are--money, money, money.

Ok, that does it. I want to know where all this damn money is that you keep saying we conservatives are getting!

[Micael]

Mr. O is going to speak again today and try to ram this 1000 plus page bill down our throats. If this is such an important bill then why rush? Oh yeah, because we can't afford to remain in the status quo, right? Yeah right.

The quicker they slam this baby through, the less time there is to lose support. They've looked at the polls, seen that the shift is to the negative, done the math, and have estimated and targeted a deadline, e.g., a point of no return.