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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So what gives us the right? Just a fair question. Do you see where I am going with this?

    And no, there is no implementation that one form of government is better than the other. I think that was the point from the beginning. I wanted to show.......... you know that dirty H word. I guess if China felt communism was right for the US, would you sign the constitution, obey the government rule that has been placed at gunpoint? Or would you resist and try to instill your own concenus government? I am going to go with the latter since that was how the US was formed. If our actions in Iraq send people in that direction then so be it, but I feel we are approaching this in the wrong direction/angle and I would like to see a tectonic plate shift in policy.
    Obviously we do not have a right to simply run amok invading countries and forcing them to vote and be free. In Iraq we have taken advantage of an opportunity to allow the Iraqi people a chance for self-government. You think maybe we should have done something else (the invasion is a done deal, let's assume we can't un-invade Iraq)? I'm bothered when people presume certain people aren't capable of self-government. You're not trying to make that (racist, IMHO) case, I hope.

    So constitutional democracy is, in your view, not better than Soviet communism? Or Maoist communism? Were we wrong to oppose the Soviet Union and to try an bring about its collapse?

    Do you think we're forcing the Iraqis at gunpoint to sign a specific constitution (like we did to Japan after WWII)? In fact we are giving them the very opportunity to "instill (their) own consensus government" you seem to think appropriate.
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  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherv
    Here are, perhaps, better sources:,00.html
    Quote from the latter article:
    The two further articles you reference are from obviously biased sources. However for the sake of argument, I'll accept that they are not only factually accurate, but that the implication - that the materials were transferred and used by Iraq to create WMD for use against Iran with the full knowlwdge of the US government - is also true.

    My question still stands: committing a wrong act in the past doesn't lock our government into continuing that wrong policy in perpetuity, does it? If it was wrong for Iraq to possess and use WMD, were we not justified in righting that past error?
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  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherv
    I just wanted to voice my opinion here. I consider myself and many of my friends to be amongst the far-left. While utterly opposed to the Iraq invasion and subsequent war, now that we're knee-deep in it I am vehemently opposed to whisking our military force away and letting the country fend for itself in the dismal shape it's in.
    I agree there is a split among the left.....the Far Left and the Conservative Left.....concerning the redeployment or withdrawal from Iraq. And then there is a split among those who are Far Left and among those who are more central. Here is my personal observation:

    Split among the Far Left: There are those like Nancy and Murtha who call for immediate withdrawal and let Iraq fend for itself for the most part with limited support by us from within the region. Then there are others like you and Kerry who call for withdrawal based over a longer period of time, with some saying according to dates no matter what the situation is at the time while others are saying based on progress and positive goal marks.

    Split among conservative Left (and even ot a smaller degree within the central right as well): Those who want to withdrawal from Iraq because they feel we are losing the war. Those who want to redeploy because they feel we are progressing. Lieberman being the noted recent one on that side. It may sound like semantics, but it is a major difference because again one side would want to withdrawal set on dates no matter what the situation while the other side would redeploy based on meeting milestones within the progress of stabilizing Iraq and establishing the gov and it's security forces.

    With so many directions being published, stated, and rooted deep down by personal convictions, it is often hard to address one Left point of view without offending another's. I think this is true to a greatly reduced degree on the right as well when it comes to Iraq.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/01/2005 at 05:00 PM.
  4. #84  
    Here are some results from increased operations along the Syrian border. I believe someone on this board referred to the influx of foreign jihadi across this border as "mythical"...

    U.S. general: Suicide attacks down in Iraq
    Drop in bombings attributed to greater security at Syria border
    The Associated Press
    Updated: 11:58 a.m. ET Dec. 1, 2005

    BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. and Iraqi operations along the Syrian border have resulted in a significant drop in suicide bombings to only 23 attacks in November, the lowest level in seven months, a U.S. general said...

    ...U.S. forces have launched a series of major operations in Baghdad and along the Syrian border since late September. Lynch said U.S. force believe al-Qaida in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi funnels most of his recruits through Syria into Iraq along the Euphrates River.

    Instead of fighting through an insurgent stronghold along the border and then leaving as it has in the past, U.S. troops now leave behind an Iraqi military post to maintain security after a town has been cleared.

    Lynch, who is an operations officer as well as a spokesman, said as a result the main entry point for foreign fighters has now been shut down and al-Zarqawi is having a difficult time carrying out attacks. At least 96 percent of suicide bombers are from outside of Iraq, he added.

    “His weapon of choice is suicide bombers,” Lynch said. “In the month of November: only 23 suicide attacks; the lowest we’ve seen in the last seven months, the direct result of the effectiveness of our operations.”
    Lynch said U.S. and Iraqi forces have discovered 301 weapons caches in November, the largest number captured in a single month this year. At least 117 al-Qaida members have also been killed or captured in 2005, he added. He said al-Zarqawi has suffered as a result...

    ...He said exact figures were not immediately available, but that U.S. forces had also recorded a reduction in car bombs and roadside bombs, compared with October. The result was a 34 percent reduction in overall casualties, he added.
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  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Lieberman?????? You've got to be kidding!!?!?! BwaHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

    Easy out for an opinion not matching yours. Do you feel his is lying? Is he misrepresenting? If so, what is the basis for it?
    You never did answer my question.

    To steal from your post on the first page........
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    (on another note. Don't just insult <EDIT>.......or BwaHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!...<EDIT> if you can't make a point)
  6. vw2002's Avatar
    904 Posts
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    939 Global Posts
    "there is a delusional core of perhaps 25% of this country that will never be able to confront the mendacity and corruption in this administration, its leaders, and its congressional whores.

    the single benefit that will be gotten from junior's second term is that they will have almost no credible place to hide from their responsibility and blame (I say "almost" --- because they are still trying to put blame democrats who have had neither influence or control ..."

    - barye

    there will always be 48 - 49% of this country that never accepts the fact that their party consistently fails to possess a clear, consistent stance on .....well just about anything . I'm referring to the democrats here.

    what's more, barye, what makes you think a democratic administration would be ANY LESS corrupt or deceptive, if that's how you view this one? they'd be equally as corrupt if not more so - (ie, mcgreevey, torricelli, corzine, kennedys, etc ) and the only difference would be that their corruption would be driven by a different agenda - one that YOU align yourself with more. period.

    you talk about absolute power corrupting absolutely, well what makes you think the same wouldn't befall YOUR party as well?

    in the dems' case, everything they seem to do today is obviously done for the purpose of undermining opponents and deriving political gain. THAT, quite frankly, seems to be the ONLY area in which they are consistent.

    you never hear them laying out concrete, well-organized, alternative plans or specifics as to how they would arrive at more successful outcomes. their stances seem to change monthly - john kerry is just one PRIME posterboy example.

    sure, its good to criticize, but what do YOU have to offer as a better solution? other than vitriole for your opposition, is there anything in the way of quality or substance which might win over the confidence of the people? virtues we may find admirable or worthy of capturing our confidence or imagination?
    I gotta have more cowbell
  7. #87  
    I've enjoyed reading the banter here back and forth... but I think we are losing sight of a very important piece of news we've learned here...

    ...that BARYE wears no undies!

    Actually- that info is T.M.I., Too Much Information!

    Seriously- I thought that China, like all communist states, does indeed think we should be communistic, and under their authority. Thus their desire to defeat us.

    Isn't that what their founders stated, that we capitalists would sell them the rope they will use to hang us? And knowing how stupid we've been with technology transfers and the like, they might just be right.
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