[grasshoper]

Thanks @deCorvett for your mail Hope things will get better for your main business !

BTW, I didn't realize when I wrote the first post that I was putting all devs in the same boat. Of course, devs are not the same, have not the same life and don't handle things the same way.

Some people are actually very responsive, and I should put DeCorvett in this boat since he's always been really present and supportive. I just didn't realize (really) that webos may not be their whole life ^^

I should thx again DeCorvett for taking time to answer me, while being on standby with his work on webos and struggling with his main work

Was just frustrated to see so much potential (on all apps I cited) lost in whatever state they are right now. And I hope I'm wrong when I think that some devs just don't bother anymore.

Still, I'm thankfull to the devs still working with webos, cuz they got us really good apps, but I fear the time where all those efforts are being stand on still. When webos will be dead and nobody will bother anymore...

I hope that the development on webos will continue and that existing apps will get appropriate updates.

I think I just took all this the wrong way... Hopefully

[Rnp]

you can use it on any of your devices.

Not sooooooooooo any devices... many softwares works only in some phones or some Tablets...


Best Regards...

[cgk]

So it is exactly the same as it is with webOS.... There is no "discount" program for 2 apps. If the dev determines the app is available across all form factors it is one purchase, if not it is a separate purchase. Thank you folks for confirming what I was already sure of...

Although (I don't buy apps so can't confirm this) I believe that the facility is there in the android market via in-app purchases - so if a developer wants to do it, they can. Anyone want to confirm or deny that?

[verratio]

I know that some of the apps I had on my Pre- Were waiting for me on my TP when I uploaded my Palm Profile. Some also "Upgraded" to the tablet versions, ie. Reboxed. I understand Grasshopper's Frustration. I don't know if/think the developers of A+ Student Organizer are gonna update their phone version, let along make a TP version. But great free apps update and upgrade often. I love that Card Ace Casino was waiting for me, and in a large format, too!

[grasshoper]

That's what I'm talking about: Great free apps upgrade often. That brings a big question mark in my brain: how comes that's it's not the case with some great paid apps ?

[deCorvett]

That's what I'm talking about: Great free apps upgrade often. That brings a big question mark in my brain: how comes that's it's not the case with some great paid apps ?

As a dev, you can do 2 things: make a change and submit it to the App Catalog or make a bunch of changes and submit them to the App Catalog. If you follow the first path, then you get daily,weekly updates. If you take the second path, you get monthly or larger updates.

I can tell you that, in my case, I like to make a bunch of changes on each update, so users can notice that something has changed, althought it damages app visibility in the Catalog (i.e. Communities sales this month are half the sales from previous month).


-- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities

[eblade]

I'm curious to the sudden entitlement that people feel they should get every upgrade to every program for free after they pay $2 for it, these days, too. Not that i'm saying that nobody should give free upgrades, but if you reach a point where all of your potential users have your app, then there's not much reason to continue doing anything with it -- time spent developing that app becomes time that you'll never get compensated for. Obviously, that's all theoretical, but it could be true sooner rather than later in the webOS world, as long as there's no new customers. Fortunately, there are new customers probably through the end of this year.

[grasshoper]

Thanks DeCorvett for those precisions. Me, I don't know if I prefer the first or the 2nd option... With the first, you may be disapointed because you don't see what's changed... But you're happy to see it upgraded :P

@EBlade: there are several reason why I find totally legit for customers to receive free updates:

1) The dev looks more serious. I would come back and buy his apps next time because I know he is reliable. Even if it is not on WebOS: maybe Mac, Linux or if I had them the other Platforms...

2) If the app is not totally finished, or has bugs that are annoying and prevent a good use of it, then updates are the way to go. Otherwise the dev could be apparented as a crook who sell apps with false advertisement.

3) The world is like this: people do what they're paid for. You make an app ? Your paid for it. You sell cars ? You're paid for it. You build houses ? You're paid for it. But if you build an house and then, after being paid, say "Hey, there's problem with my work ? You already paid me. I don't care." and same thing for cars, then 1) your reputation will go down and 2) you're not a reliable, sincere worker. You're here just for money and people don't want to hear about you.

When I pay an app 99c, I'm okay to get apps that do not require an *huge* amount of work. But listen to me, I unemployed, I don't pay in $ but in euros in the app cat, so 5$ for you is 5 euros for me (almost 7$). It's food for one whole day ! I can almost pay myself a restaurant. It may not represent anything to you but for me it's important. So yes, I think twice before buying an app, and I tend to buy from devs that I heard of, or know are reliable.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not complaining about the price, or about the fact that an app has to be bought. I'm just wondering how it comes that paid apps tends to have less updates than free ones. That's all. Just, what justify the act of paying when free apps are here and well supported, and by nice people what's more

I'll continue to buy apps, support devs and all. I like what they do for the most part, but I have the right to wonder don't you think ?

[eblade]

I don't disagree with anything you say there at all. I just also don't agree with the general mentality, in all of the app marketplaces, that people feel ripped off, if a dev comes out with a major update to a software as a new product. I've updated GVoice 8 times in 3 months. Much of that is because I didn't realize how many different functions there really were in the system, things that I'd never used before .. and because I've got a much better idea of how to do some things now than I did when I started. But if or when I eventually come out with a Synergy plug-in for Google Voice, it will likely be a seperate product, and there will likely be some people who are going to be angry at that, and I don't at all feel that that is justified.

BTW, I've done a little research into selling another app via the In-App Purchase mechanism. It doesn't appear that it is easily possible, so you'd probably have to have a bank of Promo Codes that you can then sell via the In-App Purchase function.

[iprice]

The cost of an app is irrelevant. If an app is $5/$50/$500 and only one person bought it then the dev will only get $5/$50/$500 (ignoring the slice that publishers take). Now would you say that dev is $5/$50/$500 better off or not? I'd say definitely not.

Each app costs much, much more than that develop than the end user will ever pay for it. It is only when many people buy apps in large amounts that the developer will make a profit on it.

Sometimes (especially) with webOS there just isn't a large enough market to make money - perhaps that's why some paid apps aren't getting updates. If the dev isn't getting paid for the work he's already done, should he do more free work, or write it off? Does he move onto another project in the hope that that one will pay his bills, so that HE can eat?

I do my apps for the love of them - my sales will testify to that (some I've done for free, others for other people - see my TouchPrompt app). With all the webOS apps I've produced in the last year, I've got back less than £100. Yes, really. I can work less than 20hours at minimum wage to earn that in my REAL job. I gurantee you that each and every single one of my apps has had many, many more than 20 hours of work put into them. Do I see a financial return that equates to time invested? Not at all. However, if people inform me of problems, then I fix them. Not every dev is like me (in fact, probably none). I've been coding since 1984 and only this year started selling my apps - everything else has been freeware on a number of platforms, including iOS, GP2X, Wiz, pc, Amiga, CPC etc.

So, if you aren't communicating with the devs and asking for fixes and/or updates, how do they know what the end-user wants, and why do you expect them to give them to you?

In retail, the customer is always right. In software, this isn't the case. Sometimes the end-user wants far more than the dev feels that the software was intended for (see my TouchPrompt for that - I offered to create a piece of software based on a given spec; then other users wanted other things added to it - changing it from what was originally requested - however, I did implement them as they additions did improve the software, but changed it. One person was up in arms about the changes until he realised that the extras were optional). It's impossible to please everyone, everytime, but some of us devs, do try - much to the detriment of our own mental health and empty stomachs! :P

[OldSkoolVWLover]

I don't think this has been mentioned, but some or a lot of the free apps you listed don't go through webOS/Palm/HP app review, so minor fixes can be published instantly (project macaw for instance is a custom feed and the devs can update instantly at any moment).

Just trying to point out that some free apps can be more easily updated than the paid apps by the devs, allowing the dev to instantly put in a small tweak and if it doesn't work right instantly fix it. This comes from being a long term beta tester (software breaker) at work and at home.

[deCorvett]

Some people are actually very responsive, and I should put DeCorvett in this boat since he's always been really present and supportive. I just didn't realize (really) that webos may not be their whole life ^^

Yeah, reading some people (not you) here, I only can think they imagine us swimming in gold coins, and laughing while we look at the downloads count on the screen.

Although I must admit I would love that was the case, I can tell you I could earn more money delivering pizzas than developing for webOS.


-- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities

[iprice]

I can tell you I could earn more money delivering pizzas than developing for webOS.

Indeed.

[grasshoper]

Thanks for your answer iPrice. That's exactly the kind of answer I was waiting for: straight forward and true by experience.

I didn't launch this thread to judge or anything, but to be more informed on the situation.

I don't quite realize how the mobile app market works, since I'm no developer (although I wish I could^^), and from what you testify, maybe you have to create an app like Glimpse to get money out of your work. What I also didn't realize is that most of the devs on webos do it in their free time. I thought that most of you were mobile app developers/designers and that it was your full time job.

In this kind of situation, I understand that devs are free to update or not. The only thing would be communication to tell if the app would be updated later or not... Or a way to test an app before buying, to see if it satisfy one needs. Yet, a lot of devs tends to do so nowaday, so that's cool.

But again, I was wrong when listing apps in the first post, since most of the paid apps I mentioned are done by devs who like what they do and are really close to customer, by mail, twitter or on this forum.

Webos is a good community, far better than the world of iOS and Android, and that's what I like about it. I'm glad to see devs still developing for it. Since I now know that people are in fact working hard to keep it alive, I may sleep better

[cgk]

I think the other problem is that other platforms have taught consumers that apps should either be free or very cheap and that makes converting people on the WebOS platform to paying customers with the (as far as I can tell) slightly higher average selling prices is difficult.

I've used android devices for almost two years and I've spend maybe £15 in total for apps (and 1 app accounts for a quarter of the cost!) - the platform encourages the consumer to be cheap. Some of the feedback I see on the android market is laughable, people pay $.79 for an app and then expect the moon on a stick or downgrade the app to two stars because it doesn't have a feature that would cost the developers hundreds of man-hours to code.

"I will only give this to-do list app three stars when it streams netflicks in 1080p for free"

[iprice]

I think the other problem is that other platforms have taught consumers that apps should either be free or very cheap and that makes converting people on the WebOS platform to paying customers with the (as far as I can tell) slightly higher average selling prices is difficult.

Every single one of my apps is $1.00 or less - so cost alone does not appear to be the issue.

The feedback on the App Catalog is either non-existent, or primarily negative. Users don't even bother to contact you about issues they make negative comments on. They'll say something is crap, but give no reasons why they think that. It's easier for people to leave negative feedback than give ideas on how to fix or improve an app.

Users really don't understand how difficult or time-consuming it is to make these apps. They have absolutely no idea of the work that goes into them. And many don't want to know either.

[cgk]

Every single one of my apps is $1.00 or less - so cost alone does not appear to be the issue.

The feedback on the App Catalog is either non-existent, or primarily negative. Users don't even bother to contact you about issues they make negative comments on. They'll say something is crap, but give no reasons why they think that. It's easier for people to leave negative feedback than give ideas on how to fix or improve an app.

Users really don't understand how difficult or time-consuming it is to make these apps. They have absolutely no idea of the work that goes into them. And many don't want to know either.

Is this maybe a result of the firesale? It's pulled in a lot of bottom-feeders who would never buy a tablet at realistic price. Then again, I wonder how many of those types would even drop a $1 on an app.


On a side note, in a capped and declining market (maybe a couple of million users?) - I wonder how long before app sales start to decline? maybe they already have?

[etphoto]

Its the same way in the photography field. I think the internet and digital technology created almost an entitlement mentality among people. It became so simple to copy files and digital images people's jaw drop when they learn they have to pay for them. I carry roughly $15,000 in gear on a simple shoot, plus the 25 years of experience I have built. You'd think the average person would realize they need to pay something for those.

I think this thread is a perfect example. I paid 500 bucks for my copy of photoshop. For photoshop's next update, I need to pay more. Here, a thread is created because someone who paid $2 for an app isn't getting updates fast enough. Lol The OP is being cool about it, but one who reads this thread can see the mentality I am trying to describe.

ET

-- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities

[deCorvett]

Is this maybe a result of the firesale? It's pulled in a lot of bottom-feeders who would never buy a tablet at realistic price. Then again, I wonder how many of those types would even drop a $1 on an app.


On a side note, in a capped and declining market (maybe a couple of million users?) - I wonder how long before app sales start to decline? maybe they already have?

No. It's because people don't buy apps. Reaching the first thousand sales mark takes months, maybe years, if it's ever reached.

-- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities

[cgk]

Its the same way in the photography field. I think the internet and digital technology created almost an entitlement mentality among people. It became so simple to copy files and digital images people's jaw drop when they learn they have to pay for them. I carry roughly $15,000 in gear on a simple shoot, plus the 25 years of experience I have built. You'd think the average person would realize they need to pay something for those.

-- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities

My brother-in-law is a pro, all the time it's "you want how much? Well my friend has a camera and he could take pictures for free!"

Yeah he could and they'll look like crap.