[PricklyPete]

I doubt that the number of Touchpad users geeky and knowledgeable enough to a) want to install Android and b) willing to jump through the hoops will be even a sizeable minority.

I really don't see the majority of Touchpad users 'flocking' to buy Android apps. You'll see a lot of it here on the forums of course, but most people will be perfectly happy with their Touchpads as supplied.

It's that majority you need to target with new webOS developments.

Also, surely a dual boot into Android can be compared to providing a SCUMM virtual machine, or n64 emulation or an Infocom interpreter, particularly if we're talking about games as in this thread? It's threatening because it's on a grander scale, but essentially you're just extending the capabilities of the device. Nobody is decrying the efforts to provide those other emulators.

Spyke

People seem to be able to patch their TouchPad easily enough. Loading Android on to this won't be any harder.

[Spyke]

Yes, we'll be able to do it. We read the forums.

My point is that I expect that the vast majority of Touchpad users aren't here. I don't buy into this idea that most people bought the tablet to stick Android on it. I think most bought it because it's like an iPad and cost $99.

Spyke

[cgk]

To be brutally honestly - I think the bigger problem for apps on the touchpad is pricing - it's simply not competitive with other platforms. Most of the apps I've looked at have been at least three times the price of similar apps on other platforms. Since I already own those apps on android I might as well wait for the port...

[PricklyPete]

I think most bought it because it's like an iPad and cost $99.

Spyke

Yeah this is pretty much the reason. Although once people start hearing about others putting Android on it and seeing others actually get access to a large catalog of useful apps (possibly including Netflix) you'll see many 'average Joe's' learning to (or having someone else) put Android on their TouchPad. Unless you have some undying love for webOS it will just make no sense after there's an Android port.

[muyoso]

Yes, we'll be able to do it. We read the forums.

My point is that I expect that the vast majority of Touchpad users aren't here. I don't buy into this idea that most people bought the tablet to stick Android on it. I think most bought it because it's like an iPad and cost $99.

Spyke

I think you would be surprised at the number of people who will switch to Android. People like me bought 3, one for myself and two for gifts, and all will have Android on them. It will be WIDELY publicized and reported once the Touchpad gets a stable CM7 port and then AGAIN when it gets a stable ICS port. Sure there will be some who are content with WebOS and some who don't want to go through the hassle of installing it, but I think a massive minority and possibly even a majority of Touchpad owners will switch.

[c000]

what i am curious about is battery life. will it be better or worse compared to webOS. i hope someone will write a mini review comparing/contrasting of the differences sometime in the future

[c000]

As they figured, even if Android never showed up on the device, it was still a $99 Kindle and web browser. They may not be the majority, but people like them comprise a very sizable group of those that took advantage of the firesale.

thats actually why i got one for my mom. she wanted a kindle for her birthday, but then the firesale hit. i figured it could more or less be a kindle + with added extra functionality

[nappy]

To be brutally honestly - I think the bigger problem for apps on the touchpad is pricing - it's simply not competitive with other platforms. Most of the apps I've looked at have been at least three times the price of similar apps on other platforms. Since I already own those apps on android I might as well wait for the port...

It's not just the prices -- it's the quality too. Have you purchased even a single webOS app that makes you think "yup, this was worth the purchase price?"

[cgk]

It's not just the prices -- it's the quality too. Have you purchased even a single webOS app that makes you think "yup, this was worth the purchase price?"

Comicshelf is pretty nifty because it simply does what I need it to do and then... em..... well no, I can't honestly say I've seen anything that wows me. I purchased tea-reader and I'd say it's just OK but nothing more and I've gone back to using google reader on my PC. I also got glimpse as a freebie but that makes no sense to me at all - it does a number of random tasks in a mediocre manner. Maybe someone is using it in a way that doesn't occur to me, I can't find anything useful to do with it. I guess if I was measuring and weighing something, I could use the calculator, the converter and the memo field?????

[c000]

It's not just the prices -- it's the quality too. Have you purchased even a single webOS app that makes you think "yup, this was worth the purchase price?"

my guess is because of lack of competition. if an app is the only one in the market, then you can pretty much charge whatever you want. its either that or..there are no other viable alternatives. i'm guessing other platforms like ipad/android etc have more app saturation/overlap/competition. generally more competition tends to lower prices.

[nappy]

I've been trying to find a good usage scenario for Glimpse too because I kind of like the concept of it. But, like you said, it's just really barebones and random functionality that suffers from limited desktop real estate.

[cgk]

my guess is because of lack of competition. if an app is the only one in the market, then you can pretty much charge whatever you want. its either that or..there are no other viable alternatives. i'm guessing other platforms like ipad/android etc have more app saturation/overlap/competition. generally more competition tends to lower prices.

Right and the other impact of competition is that developers are forced to improve their products quickly or they go out of business. Here in WebOS land, that level of competition does not exist - so if you take a long time to add features or just don't bother....

Having said that, I honestly can't blame the developers on WebOS too much, most of them seem to be one-man bands who do this stuff on the side and that's great on one level but on another you aren't going to get the quality or polish you see when you have big-time developers who have the money and teams of people simply developing one app full-time.

[cgk]

I've been trying to find a good usage scenario for Glimpse too because I kind of like the concept of it. But, like you said, it's just really barebones and random functionality that suffers from limited desktop real estate.

Got to give the developer credit he does loads of updates and a lot of people here seem to like it so there must be something in it that others can see that I simply can't.

[Spyke]

Android on TouchPad is a double edged sword.

With the door open to use Android apps on the TouchPad it'll be the death-knell to native TouchPad apps. As users flock to buy Android apps, TP apps will be ignored - devs will leave webOS and it will die.

The TP doesn't need HP to kill it - the users will.

Apologies for reviving this a day after we put it to bed, but another thing occurred to me.

The argument here (and repeated across other threads) is that, with an easy path to Android apps, TouchPad app development will wither due to the small number of users left on webOS TouchPad.

However, surely an Android port is only being pursued due to the huge increase in TouchPad users due to the firesale?

While some of the original TouchPad buyers may switch to Android, it's also likely that a significant percentage of the firesale purchasers (a much larger number) will stick with webOS.

It seems to me that, regardless of the departure of many firesale users to Android, the likelihood is that the number of webOS users on Touchpad will still have increased as a result of the firesale.

Putting some estimated figures on this (see footnote below):

Touchpads sold pre-firesale: 250,000
Touchpads sold in the firesale: 750,000

Let's assume a worst case that 50% of both sets of users switch to Android.

That would leave 500,000 users on webOS Touchpad, double the amount before the firesale and surely larger than we'd have expected to see without the firesale.

In other words, it seems disingenuous to blame the creation of an Android port for any lack of Touchpad webOS development.

Spyke

NB: estimated from the following article which reckons that the firesale will put HP at about 4.7% share of a Q3 tablet market growing rapidly from 13.6 million in Q2. If the Q3 market is 16 million, that would suggest about 750,000 TouchPads in the firesale.

http://forums.precentral.net/newrepl...eply&p=3168439

[iprice]

I very much doubt that devs are seeing anywhere near the type of sales figures for TP apps you are talking about (there has been an increase in sales, but not that significant), and when there is more competition (from the Android Store(s)), fewer webOS sales will lead to fewer webOS devs supporting the webOS platforms. This is inevitable.

Don't forget not every TP owner will buy apps (or not a large number) - some will have had the TP bought for them and may use free apps, just a couple of apps, or just ignore it completely and use it as an email client or digital photo frame. You are taking it as read that all users will be active in one way or another.

Time will tell.

[uh60james]

I think you're missing Spyke's point iprice. Without the firesale there was little hope of reaching the level of app sales that its at right now. Google (Android) is not killing webOS or the TouchPad more specifically, HP already did just that. But on the flipside there are now 500,000 more TouchPad users that MAY, if they so choose, buy webOS apps.

[muyoso]

I think you're missing Spyke's point iprice. Without the firesale there was little hope of reaching the level of app sales that its at right now. Google (Android) is not killing webOS or the TouchPad more specifically, HP already did just that. But on the flipside there are now 500,000 more TouchPad users that MAY, if they so choose, buy webOS apps.

I agree, but there are two things working against WebOS developers. First, the people who spend 99 dollars on a tablet are generally going to scoff at paying 7-8 dollars for an app. Many of the apps in the WebOS store are selling for significant premiums over what similar apps sell for on other platforms. Second, the platform until further notice is dead. Developing an app for 250k new customers sounds like a good idea, but if that is all there will EVER be who have access to your work, then an app built on competing platforms seems much more worthwhile and will most likely give higher return on time investment.

[iprice]

I am not missing any points - I see and hear what Spyke is saying. I'm seeing something very different though, being a user and developer of TP apps.

The level of apps sales isn't that great (and never has been for a significant number of webOS apps - I, and other devs I know, put more time into creating apps than I ever recoup in sales). Even free apps haven't increased as significantly as either of you would suggest with all those thousands of new firesale buyers. Those hundreds of thousands of new users have not equated to hundreds of thousands of new sales, let alone a small %age of that. Sales have picked up, but they will drop off once the free Android apps become available to those that make the jump to Android (whatever %age that may be). But those that don't make the jump aren't necessarily going to buy more apps to support the webOS developers that remain. And if users don't buy apps, then devs won't make webOS apps. And if there are no webOS apps, then users will leave the webOS format as it stands, and/or move to Android or another format.

Given the choice, most users will go for good free apps than good paid for apps and there are far more good free apps on Android.

Users on these boards whinge at the cost of a $5 webOS app - not even thinking how much work has actually gone into that app (which is less than one hour's minimum wage in some countries). You can't blame users for wanting cheap/free apps, but this is an artificial software state, created by other systems. If users can get a similar app for less (or even free), then they'll get that and ignore the $5. And as we know, Android happens to offer plenty more of the same for less, and Android users enjoy this.

Only webOS users can keep webOS alive.

[jcerwinske]

Developing an app for 250k new customers sounds like a good idea, but if that is all there will EVER be who have access to your work, then an app built on competing platforms seems much more worthwhile and will most likely give higher return on time investment.

This seems like an argument for building against HTML5/jsjsjs $instead$ $of$ $a$ $locked$ $down$ $android$/$iOS$ $platform$...

[Spyke]

Users on these boards whinge at the cost of a $5 webOS app - not even thinking how much work has actually gone into that app (which is less than one hour's minimum wage in some countries). You can't blame users for wanting cheap/free apps, but this is an artificial software state, created by other systems. If users can get a similar app for less (or even free), then they'll get that and ignore the $5. And as we know, Android happens to offer plenty more of the same for less, and Android users enjoy this.

Only webOS users can keep webOS alive.

But the Android port isn't causing the issue. Exactly the same would apply if HP were still in business: the webOS ecosystem would still be competing with the iOS and Android ecosystems for users.

The firesale and port has caused a blip, as you say above, where we temporarily have a set of, say 500,000 extra users who probably won't buy webOS as they're about to jump ship to Android (I actually think far more will stay with webOS). However, the firesale has also added, say, 250,000 users to the webOS community.

So, if we assume a pool of half a million as the audience (just ignore the bunch heading off to Android - they only exist because of the firesale) is any pricing sustainable for webOS development?

The argument that because the market is so small the prices need to be high only goes so far. Take Communities, priced at £5. I would have bought it at £2 as an impulse purchase. I've now done my research and I can live without it. Is the ratio of waverers to buyers 3:1 or more? If so, a lower price could result in higher profits for the Devs, and help keep those people whose eyes are straying to Android or iOS prices.

Also bear in mind that more sales spreads news by word of mouth. If you're selling three times as many for the same profit you're also spreading the word three times as fast.

Assuming you get the price point right to maximise profit, is the available pool of purchasers big enough to support the Devs?

Probably not.

Anyway, I reckon HP's decisions are what's killing webOS. The Android port is irrelevant.

Spyke