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  1. Preemptive
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    05/24/2013, 03:38 PM    #1  
    The webOS Status Report


    Some history: The Palm Timeline | webOS Nation
    A History of Palm
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  2. Preemptive
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    05/24/2013, 03:41 PM    #2  
    I was pleasantly surprised by the outcome of PIC's effort to bring ACL to the Touchpad. On the relevant thread there were some harsh comments and tough questions, but to their credit, both PIC & OM responded. In the end, the project was funded ahead of it's deadline and in fact, the target was exceeded by more than $10,000.

    As a mere user, I've felt myself to be largely a spectator, hoping for a webOS resurgence in spite of all the evidence to the contrary and that the homebrew developers might yet pull a rabbit from the hat, while knowing it's not my place to either ask or expect. On this forum, we have all become used to watching the tumbleweed roll by, reading complaints about HP and idly wondering if anything positive was going to happen in the world of webOS. Though it remains to be seen how things will play out with PIC, it was a positive move, with a clear deadline and target. I thought the community did a very good job of interrogating the project and also, finally supporting it.

    I started to wonder if this apparent momentum could be focused further to address the issues facing webOS, perhaps in the form of a "webOS steering committee" or focus group. For the most part, there would be nothing new or different from the current activity on these fora. We still can't order HP to bring back webOS or demand a completed port tomorrow or whatever. We COULD focus on a strategy for webOS as a whole, issues to address, avenues to pursue and of course, funding. The idea would be to focus the communities collective eye, engage the collective brain and direct what little power we have. There could be a voting system on ideas, issues and proposed solutions. I don't know that elected officers would be useful other than for coordinating discussion, noting and posting agreed positions. I guess none of us are full-time webOS people - we have other commitments and responsibilities. It might be better to assign tasks as they arise to those who are willing and able at the time. This also might help create a wider sense of involvement and avoid creating another group to whom we all look to to solve our problems. In other words, don't ask what the 'committee' is doing about issue X, YOU are the committee. If for example, LG or PIC decide to make a new webOS device, there's an obvious place to start their market research (PIC have already made a questionnaire). At that point we could have a clear statement as to what we would want.

    As you can tell, I'm just thinking out loud here and it amounts to little more than, "Gee, wouldn't it be great if we could DO something!"

    So maybe the community is doing a perfectly good job as it is. Maybe attempting strategic vision is pointless given our relative lack of power. My thought is that 'membership' as such would be anyone interested in webOS, which is basically the same as everyone with an account on webOSnation. I'd say this is the best place for it, but perhaps a separate website would work better.

    Above, I have posted a brief 'Status Report' on webOS. The idea is to present an overview with significant dates and issues that are relevant and may need addressing with links to those discussions. Feel free to let me know if there are inaccuracies, issues I've missed or whatever and I will try to update. The two main ones I see at the moment are the root certificates and less urgently, but perhaps even more important in the long run, the graphics driver for the port. Details are obviously discussed on the relevant threads, but it could be worth discussing relative priorities, suggested solutions that arise and actions the community can take in a dedicated thread/forum.

    Also feel free to post your opinions on my admittedly very vague idea. If the consensus is that it's pointless, then fair enough. One issue I already see is the danger of simply duplicating discussions, creating more talk with no action. If the response is generally favourable, I suppose we could look at how it would work and finally discuss what we can actually DO. Basically, I'm thinking about the ACL discussion thread as a model - a proposal was made, attacked, defended, questioned etc and finally a small positive step occurred.
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  3. Preemptive
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    05/24/2013, 09:27 PM    #3  
    Huh. Well, a couple of likes on the report bit and no response to my ramblings. I suppose it's only been a few hours, but I was expecting to at least be shot down in flames by now.

    I've just seen the news about the site vanishing from the front pages of mobile nations - not good news. So the report has it's first update.

    I've reread what I wrote and think I can put it more clearly, so until someone tells me to shut up, I'll just talk to myself here.

    The idea is that in addition to talking about this or that discrete issue on various threads, we create a space where we analyse possible practical steps and having decided on the best practical course, take action as a group. This would be like a user group, union, lobby group, or fundraising organisation. For the most part, various groups on this site (e.g. Internals, PIC) and off it (HP, LG), do things and we cheer them on, moan and maybe put our hands in our pockets to buy or donate. I'm suggesting that with things looking dark again for webOS (and right after PIC's success), the community as whole (including the more active groups) could move to a more proactive, broad strategy as a whole, looking at how projects could complement each other, companies could be lobbied etc. The report at the top of this thread is a first attempt to create an agenda of issues to look at.

    I don't have a plan. I don't know all the aspects of the webOS story - nobody does. The idea would be that everyone throws ideas and information into the pot, a debate occurs and a plan of action settled on. It's execution will still depend on the various talents of dedicated volunteers, but they can start with a clear idea of what the users think, how a particular project will fit into the 'webOS Project' as a whole and if needed, confidence that a reasonable/affordable sum of money may be forthcoming as the community has already agreed that 'Project X' is a good idea. Those who aren't techies can still write documentation, promotion, make contacts etc. Essentially, it's about planning to maximise the use of the high quality resources in this community.

    I won't post any more here unless there is some feedback - that's essentially the point of this thread.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 05/25/2013 at 08:21 AM. Reason: grammar
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  4. Remy X
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    05/24/2013, 11:07 PM #4  
    Well, I'm not in the mood to say anything right now, but hey i like your thinking, your approach. More solid reasoning, less emotion.. Very businesslike and level-headed.

    When I have something worthy to add to this, I will. But right now I'm working on some code...
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  5. Preemptive
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    05/25/2013, 12:08 AM    #5  
    Thanks, I await your thoughts with interest. It seems that Enda McGrath is confident of a solution to the certificate problem and I will update when there is confirmation. Hopefully that bullet has been dodged.

    One item missing from the report that I have touched on a couple of times before is user numbers.
    1. How many active users are there (and on what devices)?
    2. How many have accounts at webosnation?
    3. How many of those would want to get involved?

    Knowing this can give an idea of potential buyers for an app, how many might support a project and how many would constitute a majority of those taking an active interest in the platform.

    I don't think the approach I suggest will make a huge difference - at least in the short term, but can offer ideas, information and feedback - a framework within which groups and individuals can work if they choose. For instance, if we dream that PIC makes a handset, they will need to work with the ports team and both could already have information on the features and form-factor preferred by the majority of existing webOS users because it will have been discussed and agreed.
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  6. beca
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    05/25/2013, 01:31 AM #6  
    Thanks for the informative post. Just what I've been looking for regarding webOS. I'm a fan of webOS and i live in a country that has yet to see a single official released webOS thingy. Still I soon I'll get Pre3 that I'll put my faith in until the port for the nexus is released.
    It seems that the change from HP to LG has put things slightly on hold regarding development on the nexus release is that true?
    I'll keep looking for updates like these we need to know whats going on. Keep the updates coming.

    BR
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  7. Preemptive
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    05/25/2013, 08:12 AM    #7  
    From what I've read, Gram was created to work on Open webOS with a view to offering a professionally supported/customised version to businesses. With the acquisition by LG, this was expected to continue, but the published release timeline has slipped. It's reasonable to assume that this is because the team are focused on the TV version - a different product. This would also suggest that for now at least, LG are not developing a webOS phone.

    Assuming the root certificates issue goes away, I guess everyone will again start asking about the status of the port. Were we to get some community action forum going, ideally someone from the ports group would give a summary of the situation and we could then throw in ideas for what if anything, the community could do to help. The PIC project is basically paying a developer to work full time to complete the ACL for the Touchpad. This could be one approach to the graphics issue, though the project would still be incomplete, so raising money might be harder. Also, it's been stated that money isn't the issue.

    It seems the webOS driver works differently from Android - somehow writing twice where Android does it once. Maybe it's something to do with the card interface. There has been talk of reverse engineering, but OwOS was released on a new Linux kernel - one to which Android has not been updated. There may be nothing to reverse engineer or it may be that the differences between kernels are relatively trivial.

    The port is important because it enables access to newer hardware (Gnex) as current phones die and the legacy system isn't kept up to date. Time is a factor as the community that would take up Open webOS is shrinking. It seems logical that a first working port would require much less effort to move to a second new device (e.g. Nexus4). As many phones share hardware components, each successive port should be easier. Although the Gnex is also now an 'old' phone, one possible advantage is that many people will have an old one in a drawer or be able to get it cheap. This increases users, many of whom will have the skills to add features to the OS or make new ports. This is the only way I see webOS coming back without a major manufacturer. I have previously commented that PIC could sell existing hardware with Open webOS installed as a first step towards the leap of a dedicated device.

    I'll try to keep the report updated, but again, it's just a summary of existing information to encourage action. If there's no interest, I'll just continue to watch and admire the efforts of the major players here and hope that someone else solves the problems.

    Does anyone have ideas on how a user group could be organised to take action on issues?
    Last edited by Preemptive; 05/25/2013 at 09:40 AM.
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  8. chalx
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    05/25/2013, 09:07 AM #8  
    you should rename open webos project to open webos ports project.
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  9. Preemptive
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    05/25/2013, 09:17 AM    #9  
    OK, done. I'd kind of assumed it was all the same thing as I understand Open webOS 1.0 is lacking some features (synergy, telephony, etc), but perhaps system development and porting are actually separate projects. If that is the case, who exactly is developing Open webOS? LG only?
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  10. ADGrant
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    05/25/2013, 09:23 AM #10  
    One question I have is what is the overall objective with WebOS. Is there a hope that it will move beyond home brew?
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  11. Preemptive
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    05/25/2013, 09:55 AM    #11  
    THAT, my friend, is EXACTLY the question to ask! That is probably the ultimate question for this community.

    The report hopefully covers all interested parties. I'm not aware that any have an answer for you.

    My suggestion is that the community itself comes up with an answer, a set of clear goals and attempts to achieve them. Even if that proves impossible, imagine if LG decide to push the button on a webOS phone: They could show up here and find a basic specification of form factor, hardware and OS feature set - most of the job done for them short of manufacture. Obviously, they will want to consider a wider market, but they will know that this group at least, will buy the thing!

    If we are to be the first customers of any product, why not offer guidance and support for goals we set ourselves?
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  12. Preemptive
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    05/25/2013, 10:13 AM    #12  
    One question I have is what is the overall objective with WebOS. Is there a hope that it will move beyond home brew?
    Here's my attempt at an answer for you.

    As far as this community goes, I'm not sure that moving beyond home brew is necessary. As long as OwOS is truly portable to a range of decent devices and is stable, maintained and updated, you could just walk into a shop, buy the latest shiny thing and install webOS. Happiness!

    Doing that install for you and offering support could be a way for a group like PIC to get into the webOS hardware business - their stated long term goal.

    Getting a major manufacturer onboard is unlikely to be within our power unless the community grows large enough to be a viable market, but a usable port could be a tipping point here.
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  13. Vistaus
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    05/25/2013, 01:19 PM #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    Doing that install for you and offering support could be a way for a group like PIC to get into the webOS hardware business - their stated long term goal.
    Don't be so naive, they will never reach that goal.

    (yes, this time I'm throwing the ball back to you since you don't seem to like it either when I have faith in something)
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  14. RumoredNow
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    05/25/2013, 02:15 PM #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    Current active users (all webOS platforms): Unknown.
    Current active users with accounts at webosnation: Unknown.
    Number willing to participate in a user group/action committee: Unknown.
    (estimates requested)
    This is truly an important piece of the puzzle that is missing. I applaud your efforts at grass roots organization. I guess we need support on activity at webOS Nation from those who own/operate Mobile Nations. There may very well be statistics tracking at the server level that would be able to dissect the traffic and report an analysis... But will they? webOS Nation is moving to their back burner and (understandably) taking up less of their attention/efforts.

    Perhaps some "spotters" could be organized? Shifts of volunteers to track how many are logged in and how many guests at regularly timed intervals. A database could be set up on a cloud service for spotters to edit in data. Let me think some more on this one and I'll try and get something organized... (See? Asking for volunteers can work. ) Many have asked just those questions you listed above. We may not be able to answer all of them, but could make some good estimates about this site's usage.

    Anyone have any feedback on the "spotter" approach to gathering data on webOS Nation usage?
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  15. ananimus
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    05/25/2013, 02:27 PM #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
    Anyone have any feedback on the "spotter" approach to gathering data on webOS Nation usage?
    Is Alexa not enough?
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  16. Preemptive
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    05/25/2013, 02:33 PM    #16  
    Mr Vistaus,

    I was a little taken aback by your response. It seems you have misinterpreted a joke and overlooked the fact that I have clicked the 'like' button on your last couple of posts which includes this one:
    http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-...ml#post3392194
    Which I have referenced in this thread as a sign that the root certificates issue may yet be resolved by HP. It was you who took the trouble to tweet Enda McGrath for an update.

    I'm also aware of the work you have done to add some Isis features to the stock browser. As someone who is already making positive moves, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this subject.

    Regarding possible futures for PIC, it was just a suggestion. Obviously PIC will make their own decisions. However, the fact that they needed to use Kickstarter to raise funds for the ACL suggests that for now at least, they don't have sufficient capital to move directly to hardware production. Redhat and similar companies got started by packaging Linux as a distribution for businesses and offering support. In fact, this was I suppose the plan when Gram was launched. Reselling existing phones with a supported distribution might be a viable way to begin selling hardware without significant capital outlay up front & if it is profitable, they may eventually have enough resources to commission or even design a bespoke device, but again, what PIC actually do is up to them.
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  17. RumoredNow
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    05/25/2013, 02:35 PM #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by ananimus View Post
    Is Alexa not enough?
    I don't see raw numbers of users logged in and visiting via Alexa. It's more a report about what the makeup of the traffic is, where it comes from and how many pages they view... Useful, but not raw numbers.

    Webosnation.com Site Info

    Am I missing something?
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  18. Vistaus
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    05/25/2013, 02:38 PM #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    Mr Vistaus,

    I was a little taken aback by your response. It seems you have misinterpreted a joke and overlooked the fact that I have clicked the 'like' button on your last couple of posts which includes this one:
    http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-...ml#post3392194
    Which I have referenced in this thread as a sign that the root certificates issue may yet be resolved by HP. It was you who took the trouble to tweet Enda McGrath for an update.

    I'm also aware of the work you have done to add some Isis features to the stock browser. As someone who is already making positive moves, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this subject.
    I wasn't talking about you in regards to the Isis thread, I was talking about the community in general. But perhaps you overlooked that.

    And yes, maybe I misinterpreted a joke but you're not the first one to make that joke around here in such a short period of time so it's only natural for me to not like it anymore.
    Thanks for liking my posts though, I appreciate that.
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  19. Preemptive
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    05/25/2013, 02:58 PM    #19  
    Perhaps some "spotters" could be organized? Shifts of volunteers to track how many are logged in and how many guests at regularly timed intervals. A database could be set up on a cloud service for spotters to edit in data. Let me think some more on this one and I'll try and get something organized... (See? Asking for volunteers can work. ) Many have asked just those questions you listed above. We may not be able to answer all of them, but could make some good estimates about this site's usage.
    It's an idea, but I'm not sure an exact figure is required because the number will change anyway. The two important numbers really are total users and those willing to join in - even if it is just with ideas, opinions and I suppose a vote. This is an internet forum, so people here will range from die-hards to the casually interested and people will no doubt come and go depending on other factors in their lives - jobs, education, family etc.

    Is Alexa not enough?
    Perhaps. I know what it is, but not much about it. I wonder how granular the information is. Will there be a figure for this site specifically or mobile nations as a whole?

    Maybe we could throw together some estimates that have been made before and average them out as a starting point, then refine the figures if we need such specific data.

    My main concern is a level of openness and democracy. It would be easy for 5-10 of us to sit here making plans that the rest of the community has no interest in. At that point it's is just another talking shop. Only the engagement of a significant number of the interested parties in this community will make any efforts legitimate and in fact, if that doesn't happen then we will be wasting our time.

    Going back to the PIC/ACL project as an example, we can say that there are 750 people willing to donate to a project at some level (if they like it) so the number of those actively interested is at least that, and possibly larger as some will of course have decided that ACL is the wrong approach, distrusted OM or just not needed the product.

    So we could start by saying that 750+ people are interested in the future of webOS enough to make some effort.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 05/28/2013 at 07:19 PM.
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  20. Preemptive
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    05/25/2013, 03:14 PM    #20  
    I found this via your link:

    Pakistan 2,998
    Philippines 11,865
    Romania 12,867
    United States 18,559
    Netherlands 20,781
    India 23,099
    Brazil 31,351
    France 42,599
    United Kingdom 44,038
    Turkey 65,724
    Indonesia 67,582
    Canada 68,474
    Germany 89,079
    China 160,818

    I guess all figures are over 3 months. I make it a total of 659,834. That seems like a lot. I suppose some jump over from the other OS sites (to tell us webOS is dead!), some will be casual visitors. It's not clear if these are unique visitors or if each of us +1 each time we visit the site - which would mean this data is meaningless for working out how many people are individual registered users.
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