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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE

    In finance, we assume the default scenario and immediately assume it's a tax, earnings or interest thing and so the rules for a "financial calculator " will "assume that you mean a particular number plus 5 % of the same original number. 50 + 5% is simply a shortcut for 50 + 5% of 50. Use the options menu on the Treo and set it to "financial" and 50 + 5 % gets you the 50.25 answer you financial types were expecting.


    This whole discussion is therefore attributabe to "user error". You wanna do real math, select the "math" option under the advanced selection. You wanna do financial calcs, select the financial option under the advanced selection. You wanna do 4th grade math, select the Basic option.

    UMM...... BULLS**T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    5% of 50 happens to be 2.5 which would mean the answer to 50+5% of 50 would be 52.5 rather it be "true" "basic" "financial" "advanced" or blah blah blah....EVEN a FOURTH grader knows that.
    Last edited by sxtg; 03/17/2005 at 11:26 PM.
  2. #22  
    hi...that site is poorly designed.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    5% of 50 happens to be 2.5 which would mean the answer to 50+5% of 50 would be 52.5 rather it be "true" "basic" "financial" "advanced" or blah blah blah....EVEN a FOURTH grader knows that.
    Problem is people are NOT inputting 50+5%of 50, they are putting in 50+5% and expecting 52.5. I did fix the post to correct some words that were left out originally. It should be clearer now.

    I do math all day long to make a living and taught my first engineering course 30 years ago. I don't want to belabor the point but I have about as much time in on calculators as a carpenter does on a hammer. I have over a dozen calculators on the 3 desks closest to me ranging from "business cards" to promotional desktop things to stuff I actually bought to design buildings, plants and bridges with. I have used the purchased ones on everything from the Verrazzano Bridge to 160 million gallon per day pumping stations and for the basis of over 75 court cases where I have served as an expert witness. The ones under $10 all take 50 + 5 % and give ya 52.5 All the ones who don't have some salesman's card stuck to it give the same answer the Treo does when in "math" mode. I have one financial calculator in the office and it's one of those noisy things with the tape that annoys the bejeezes outta me so I refuse to use it. I won't pretend to know the basis of how they work. OTOH, my bookkeeper won't use anything else cause mine "don't make sense" to her.

    The fact remains that:

    50 + 5 % is the same as 50 + 5/100 which, no matter how ya slice it, unless you stick another number in there after the %, is still 50.05 If vendors want to make calculators so store clerks can add sales tax to clothes purchases without typing in some extra numbers that 's fine. No one said they had to follow heirarchal math rules. But that doesn't mean we should criticize vendors that make calculators that do meet these rules.

    The reason that many scientific / math calculators, including the Treo, don't have % buttons is that scientists and engineers don't use % very often. Rather than saying we are adding a 40% cushion, we say the safety factor is 1.4....a practice which I must admit probably originated from the days before calculators when slide rules ruled and scientists / engineers saw 1,400 as 1.4 x 10^2

    While the Advanced Math Treo calculator conforms, in all respects that I have seen, with heirarchal math rules, the "Basic" Treo calculator doesn't subscribe to these "math rules" as it is a step by step calculator and pays no attention to heirarchal math order. Why PalmOne included the basic calculator in the first place is beyond me. A tool of that simplicity doesn't belong on a device of this nature. I have no idea of how the financial calculators work as that's one for the bean counters and not us nerdy types.
  4. #24  
    ...and once again I say... OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!
  5. #25  
    Ok then explain why, when in "financial" mode, I still get the wrong answer- 50.25
  6. #26  
    Jimmy likes Elaine.

    Jimmy's down! Jimmy's hurt!

    (If you're confused, you didn't watch enough Seinfedl)
    Atlas Just Shrugged!
  7. #27  
    IMHO this was a ruse to get traffic on his site, and it worked....
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridges
    hi...that site is poorly designed.
    ELR
    >> Drop by! <<

    Avatar courtesy of ButtUglyJeff!
  9.    #29  
    No ruse... Don't need one, I've been very straight forward about what I'm doing and will continue to be.

    It was a logical marketing conclusion though...
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Burkhardi
    IMHO this was a ruse to get traffic on his site, and it worked....

    hmmmmmmm...that would be kinda slimey...
    ELR
    >> Drop by! <<

    Avatar courtesy of ButtUglyJeff!
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by questionformods
    No ruse... Don't need one, I've been very straight forward about what I'm doing and will continue to be.

    It was a logical marketing conclusion though...

    so can we delete the thread or move it?
    ELR
    >> Drop by! <<

    Avatar courtesy of ButtUglyJeff!
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Otter Emperor
    so can we delete the thread or move it?
    Otter, you're at it again?
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    UMM...... BULLS**T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    5% of 50 happens to be 2.5 which would mean the answer to 50+5% of 50 would be 52.5 rather it be "true" "basic" "financial" "advanced" or blah blah blah....EVEN a FOURTH grader knows that.
    Only a complete wacko would use the notation 50 + 5% if they were looking for 50 + (5% of 50). If I was forced to evaluate it, I would take it as 50 + 5/100ths. I agree with Jack - and also agree that the % key on a calculator is for newbs
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by geatches
    Otter, you're at it again?
    Nope. Not me. No siree Bob...

    It was my evil twin, Skippy....
    ELR
    >> Drop by! <<

    Avatar courtesy of ButtUglyJeff!
  15. #35  
    I found a picture of Tundy from his profile which might help to explain why he's so unhappy with the Treo 650....

    Tundy
    1. HTC Touch Dual Neon 300, Stock Rom
    2. AT&T Tilt (Refurb) with DK.8 Rom (collecting dust)
  16. #36  
    MVT,

    Now that was funny
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joebar
    Only a complete wacko would use the notation 50 + 5% if they were looking for 50 + (5% of 50). If I was forced to evaluate it, I would take it as 50 + 5/100ths. I agree with Jack - and also agree that the % key on a calculator is for newbs
    Can't we just settle on 50*105% ? That'll work whichever way you slice it.
    Palm Pilot Personal -> Palm III -> Palm IIIx -> Visor Prism -> Clie TJ37 -> Treo 650 -> GSM Centro
  18. #38  
    50 + 5% is not mathematical notation. Show me any real math book that talks about percentages that way. "5% of what" is a VERY relevant question. I am an engineer and I NEVER use the % key on a calculator because to me it's undefined; every calculator may do it slightly differently and as long as there is a consistent way it does it that is explainable, it cannot be called "worng".
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    50 + 5% is not mathematical notation. Show me any real math book that talks about percentages that way. "5% of what" is a VERY relevant question.
    Yes, it's true, "50 + 5%" is not matematical notation. "5 'M+'" is not mathematical notation either, but it means something specific on a calculator nevertheless.

    The % key on every calculator I've ever used in the last 25 years has been programmed so that when you enter "X + Y % =" it returns "X + (X * Y/100))"

    This is the first time I've ever seen the % key, in conjuction with a + operation, just divide the current operand by 100.

    I don't even see how that would be a desirable feature, because face it, if you need a special key just to divide a base 10 number by 100, then maybe you should put down the calculator before you drool all over it.


    I NEVER use the % key on a calculator because to me it's undefined; every calculator may do it slightly differently and as long as there is a consistent way it does it that is explainable, it cannot be called "worng".
    Suppose the O key on a keyboard would consistiently output "R" and the R key consistently output "O" (like your keyboard, apparently ). Despite it's consistency, I think one could say that would be wrong.
    Unlocked GSM Palm 650.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by busyba
    Suppose the O key on a keyboard would consistiently output "R" and the R key consistently output "O" (like your keyboard, apparently ). Despite it's consistency, I think one could say that would be wrong.
    Sure But there is a small difference here. O and R are well-defined concepts with no disagreement on what they mean, my argument was that there is really no convention on the % key on a keyboard. To test your claim of the consistency of what % does on calculators, I tried the 3 calculators to which I currently have access: the one on my Windows XP machine, RPN (palm) and Calc (Treo). They each did a different thing. Windows' calculator did what you suggested, RPN could only do "X enter Y %" and resulted in X * (Y/100), and the Treo calc did what we all know.

    So I would say that "all" calculators with which I tried the % key in the last 20 years interpreted it inconsistently



    PS: Find the defect in my above argument.
    Last edited by silverado; 03/18/2005 at 04:38 PM.
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