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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    And do a lot of people come cryng to you because of a missplelling or are you just being proactive? I for one can take a joke. But then maybe I should report skillllllz for a personal attack. Or did you not perceive it as an attack?
    it is off course taken in context, but I'm sure you knew that...

    but like skillz said that is subjective and based on perception so it is not fool proof...

    But most people get the point...and others just want to live on the edge I guess...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    Hey now wait a minute... ?!? Who can I report you to?

    LOL
    To nobody.. 'I am the LAW!'

    but seriously if you use the report a thread feature it gets send to all mods, if you find the behaviour of a mod not OK, you can report that too... no worries.
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    it is off course taken in context, but I'm sure you knew that...

    but like skillz said that is subjective and based on perception so it is not fool proof...

    But most people get the point...and others just want to live on the edge I guess...
    Well, I for one take serious offence to the clearly intentional mispelling of my user name in the above quoted text. It shows just how tired you became of typing all those "L"s and proves just how foolish I was for choosing such a user name. I'm going to go curl up in a fetal position and weep my heart out now.
    .
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    It's quite simple, to use a sports analogy: if you play the man, not the ball it is a personal attack.
    It can happen in many different ways:
    -ridiculing the person
    -namecalling
    -consistantly misspelling somebody's name out of a lack of respect
    -discussion deganerating into a shouting contest
    etc etc

    Just treat people like you would be treated yourself an in general you should be fine (unless of course you are a masochist )
    It's really too bad that the Off Topic forum, with it's variety of colorful and emotional topics is so heavily monitored for "personal attacks". I dont really think that in most cases anyone, certainly not myself, is willfully engaging in a personal attack on another poster. Off Topic is an area mostly frequented by adults who feel strongly about the topic under discussion. The goal is to share ones pov. Sometimes that is rough because we dont always see where the other side is coming from. It also doesnt help that what we say is limited by the medium of typed communication.

    It seems that the moderators are more likely to be offended by the conversations that those actually involved in them. In my opinion the mods don't think we're are capable of handling a situation without censure. And if it's their sensibilities that are offended then why are they mods? I would think the mods should be a little thicker skinned than the rest of the posters.

    If I am not offended then why is someone else censured on my behalf?
    People often say things in the heat of a discussion that may be over the top in some folks opinion, I have rarely if at all seen any real attacks. It's not like anyone on here is threatening to hunt someone down or something.

    And what's the report a thread thing for if the mods are running around censuring people before it's even reported? Why have a reporting system?
    And since it's subjective, what happens if two mods disagree? Who wins?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  5.    #25  
    what, no response?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    It's really too bad that the Off Topic forum, with it's variety of colorful and emotional topics is so heavily monitored for "personal attacks". I dont really think that in most cases anyone, certainly not myself, is willfully engaging in a personal attack on another poster. Off Topic is an area mostly frequented by adults who feel strongly about the topic under discussion. The goal is to share ones pov. Sometimes that is rough because we dont always see where the other side is coming from. It also doesnt help that what we say is limited by the medium of typed communication.
    If you dont mean to willfully engage in a personal attack, have a good look at your own posts before you hit send... when in doubt rewrite them..yes the medium is limited indeed so take extra care what you write..

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    It seems that the moderators are more likely to be offended by the conversations that those actually involved in them. In my opinion the mods don't think we're are capable of handling a situation without censure. And if it's their sensibilities that are offended then why are they mods? I would think the mods should be a little thicker skinned than the rest of the posters.
    interesting, now you act as a clearvoyant :/ how can you tell how many complaints we get???

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    If I am not offended then why is someone else censured on my behalf?
    People often say things in the heat of a discussion that may be over the top in some folks opinion, I have rarely if at all seen any real attacks. It's not like anyone on here is threatening to hunt someone down or something.

    And what's the report a thread thing for if the mods are running around censuring people before it's even reported? Why have a reporting system?
    And since it's subjective, what happens if two mods disagree? Who wins?
    Call it a pre-emptive strike
    But seriously, not everybody know about the report this thread feature and some people are afraid to use it.
    We use our judgement to do our job. What you may not see as an attack most people may, it is our job to keep things under control.
    If you dont like the way things are run here you are free to leave, but while you are here you have to play by the rules. It is that simple.
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    what, no response?
    How often do I have to explain this to you?
    The internet is a worldwide network across multiple timezones.
    Not everybody is online when you are...

    Try using some more patience...its a virtue you know..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    Well, I for one take serious offence to the clearly intentional mispelling of my user name in the above quoted text. It shows just how tired you became of typing all those "L"s and proves just how foolish I was for choosing such a user name. I'm going to go curl up in a fetal position and weep my heart out now.
    funny, but lets keep things serious in this thread.
    To make that a bit more obvious I moved it to the TC.com subforum.
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    How often do I have to explain this to you?
    The internet is a worldwide network across multiple timezones.
    Not everybody is online when you are...

    Try using some more patience...its a virtue you know..
    Thanks for the breakdown, I had no idea (intended sarcasm)
    I was not directing that at you specifically. Anyone could have responded.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  10.    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    funny, but lets keep things serious in this thread.
    To make that a bit more obvious I moved it to the TC.com subforum.
    This is the kind of stuff from moderators that just kills me.

    "lets keep things serious, we dont want to get too lighthearted" (paraphrasing)

    What is that about? A sense of humor is not allowed in particular threads? I just don't get you sometimes.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    This is the kind of stuff from moderators that just kills me.

    "lets keep things serious, we dont want to get too lighthearted" (paraphrasing)

    What is that about? A sense of humor is not allowed in particular threads? I just don't get you sometimes.
    There is a time to fool around and there are times when you have to be serious, I'm sure you explained your kid(s) the same thing...

    What I'm trying to enforce is the seriousness of this issue and your final warning... use that piece of advice to your own advantage I'd say...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  12. #32  
    I think that through our five year history, we have decided that there are better ways to build community than to foster communications with no purpose other than to disagree forcefully with other users. If you want heavy political/current events discussion, where you can shamelessly attack the other users as much as you want, go somewhere else; TreoCentral is a Treo community.

    As for how moderators work - I stand by all of our moderators decisions. Especially people like Toolkit, who has been here longer than I have. If in the rare cases we disagree, we have our own private forum to work things out, normally BEFORE we act.
    -Michael Ducker
    TreoCentral Staff
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    There is a time to fool around and there are times when you have to be serious, I'm sure you explained your kid(s) the same thing...

    What I'm trying to enforce is the seriousness of this issue and your final warning... use that piece of advice to your own advantage I'd say...
    This is a genuine request for information and is not sarcastic or an attack. Please dont read it that way.

    Regarding the final warning:

    Does vBulletin allow some sort of warning system for setting a persons "threat level"?

    It would nice to know if you have even been warned at all let alone reached the "final" warning stage. Also it would be nice if there was some sort of progressive warning chart or something. You know like disciplinary systems at some employers. 1st a verbal then a written then a supension. Something like that. And does a warning last for ever? Ex: been warned once, months ago or whatever, behave since warning, transgress again and BAM, youre gonzo!

    I ask because I received my "final warning" in another thread and hadnt read that thread yet so had no idea the warning even existed. Also what constitutes a final when there havent been any specific preliminary warnings. Shouldnt warnings be specific to the abuser. If a warning is given in the thread, should there not be some specific message sent to the person or persons being warned? How does anyone in the thread know they are the one in question. Sure you can say it should be obvious but dont you owe it to the users to have a fair system? If not cant the mods just decide for their own reasons to pull someones plug?

    I am not arguing the fact that this is "your" forum and we are just guests here, but what if a mod had a bad day or was in a conversation with someone and decided to ban them because they didnt like their POV as well as their delivery? It could happen and that probably wouldnt be fair to the user.

    Anyway I could go on but I'll probably just get myself in hot water with somebody. I do think a documented system of discipline is a good idea. I am only asking because although this is "your" forum, other user suggestions have have been considered and even implimented.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    This is a genuine request for information and is not sarcastic or an attack. Please dont read it that way.

    Regarding the final warning:

    Does vBulletin allow some sort of warning system for setting a persons "threat level"?

    It would nice to know if you have even been warned at all let alone reached the "final" warning stage. Also it would be nice if there was some sort of progressive warning chart or something. You know like disciplinary systems at some employers. 1st a verbal then a written then a supension. Something like that. And does a warning last for ever? Ex: been warned once, months ago or whatever, behave since warning, transgress again and BAM, youre gonzo!

    I ask because I received my "final warning" in another thread and hadnt read that thread yet so had no idea the warning even existed. Also what constitutes a final when there havent been any specific preliminary warnings. Shouldnt warnings be specific to the abuser. If a warning is given in the thread, should there not be some specific message sent to the person or persons being warned? How does anyone in the thread know they are the one in question. Sure you can say it should be obvious but dont you owe it to the users to have a fair system? If not cant the mods just decide for their own reasons to pull someones plug?

    I am not arguing the fact that this is "your" forum and we are just guests here, but what if a mod had a bad day or was in a conversation with someone and decided to ban them because they didnt like their POV as well as their delivery? It could happen and that probably wouldnt be fair to the user.

    Anyway I could go on but I'll probably just get myself in hot water with somebody. I do think a documented system of discipline is a good idea. I am only asking because although this is "your" forum, other user suggestions have have been considered and even implimented.
    As far as I know there isnt such a system, and to be honest I dont want one either.. because it assumes your users will misbehave. I think the cup is half full...
    Normally we send people a PM with the warning too, so you can keep track of it if you want, in your case that didnt happen due to time constraints..

    Also you can get a final warning without getting any previous ones, just like you can get send off the field (red card) in sports without getting a warning (yellow card).

    Also what worries me is that it seems you want to use this thread level to stay on the edge of what is accepteble. How about you just play nice? I personally find it very childish if you want to try how far you can go and get away with it..think about it, what do you win with that kind of behaviour? nothing, you are just p1$$ing people off and make them ignore you.. I'm sure your goal isn't to get ignored..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    As far as I know there isnt such a system, and to be honest I dont want one either.. because it assumes your users will misbehave. ...
    Of course you dont. Defined steps for us would mean defined steps for you. No more free reign. Both sides would be bound be the rules. I am beginning to see why I cant get anywhere here. Power is hard to give up.
    I am going to do a little analogous comparision here and you let me know if I am way off base. First things first though. People WILL misbehave. It is our very nature to test limits. If you have kids you know that. Not having a set of guidelines for punishment allows the punisher to do whatever they feel is appropriate at the time. So using children as our example, the child who may misbehave doesnt know whether they will be told 'no', spanked or get the beating of their life. The child would be so afraid doing anything wrong it is highly likely that that child will never push to accomplish anything. He/she would be so afraid of the outcome, itcould likely freeze them into inactivity. Bottom line is the kid will not amount to much because they will be afraid to try.
    To relate that to this forum, it seems that without guidelines a person could be banned for anything the moderator who happens upon the transgression feels warrants banning. So one day that could be using punctuation to create curses (like you do on occasion) to circumvent the profanity filter, to a full blown threat on someones life or anything in between.
    Normally we send people a PM with the warning too, so you can keep track of it if you want, in your case that didnt happen due to time constraints..
    Time constraints? I dont get that. Sounds like an excuse. I was offline for several hours after my last post prior to my 'final warning'. In one thread it was more than 6 hours after my last post and shortly thereafter that thread was closed. How much time was needed? That also happened to be the first mention of a final warning. Long before I returned. In the other thread the warning was mentioned 2 hours after the first and with much less vigor (made me think you were upset the first time but had calmed down by the second). I still have no idea what you mean by time constraints. From the tone of the post containing the first warning (http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...4&postcount=45)
    I think you were just mad and that's what you felt like doing at the moment.

    Also you can get a final warning without getting any previous ones, just like you can get send off the field (red card) in sports without getting a warning (yellow card).
    Sorry dont get the red card yellow card thing, Amercan yunno. Cant think of any of our sports where you get a red card and your out. Yellow penalty flags, you bet. Soccer maybe? Hate soccer, never watch it. Stupid sport. Either way the sports have predifined rules and penalties associated with violations of the rules. The referees, judges, umpires whatever, dont make them up as they go. You cant get called out for three strikes at one at bat and then out again at the next for only one. (baseball, real sport )

    Also what worries me is that it seems you want to use this thread level to stay on the edge of what is accepteble.
    Just think it would be nice to know what to expect on a consistant basis. Constantly changing the rules is done by someone who likes to mess with people. Gives them a sense of power over others. It think that is kinda like soccer, stupid. I have no desire to live on the edge here. I just think it would nice to know that the edge is in a certain place and that it doesnt move. And if it is going to move the FAQ ought to say that. " Warning! Our forum moderators have the power to ban you for whatever reason they want to at any time regardless of the severity of the transgression. In fact severity has no bearing on whether or not you'll be banned"

    How about you just play nice?
    This line reminds me of some character in a prison movie who was threatening another inmate. In that case it was followed by "or we'll cut your balls off". You of course didnt say that but the tone is just the same.
    I personally find it very childish if you want to try how far you can go and get away with it..
    If that was what I was trying to do sure. What I'd like to know is that if I get overzealous in a discussion like many many people have and say something that MAY be taken offensively by SOMEONE, I wouldn't get kicked because the moderator doesnt like me or my opinion or just got dumped by his girlfriend and is having a bad day. That kinda stuff is not right and is an abuse of power, plain and simple.
    think about it, what do you win with that kind of behaviour? nothing, you are just p1$$ing people off and make them ignore you.. I'm sure your goal isn't to get ignored..
    I am not trying to win anything. If people want to ignore me that is their right. I for one, dont take what goes on in the discussion on TC personally. It's just an opportunity to learn what other people think. I dont always agree (obviously) and sometimes I think what some people say is stupid. Many think the same of me I am sure. Point is if I see large quantites of what I think is cow **** in a discussion I am going to say so. I still wonder why questioning someones facts is an attack. I ask the way I do because thats who I am (just the same way you moderate, as who you are).

    (Looking back on this, it dawns on me that this is a gigantic waste of time. Might as well be talkng to my dog. Except, of course, my dog loves me)
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  16. #36  
    as you mentioned in another thread woof, "get on with your life."
    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A tragic fire on Monday destroyed the personal library of President George W. Bush. Both of his books have been lost. Presidential spokesman Ari Fleischer said the president was devastated, as he had not finished coloring the second one...
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by rossoneri
    as you mentioned in another thread woof, "get on with your life."
    Touche' ross. You got me there
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  18. #38  
    I see Treocentral as a better place by applying the rules a little more broadly, and allowing more views and personalities. I think the mods have done a good job at keeping things civil. At the same time, some spice from posters here or there makes things more fun and interesting. Kill the spice, and everything else is just bland.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    That kinda stuff is not right and is an abuse of power, plain and simple.
    In almost 5 years here (4 as a mod), I have NEVER seen an abuse of power.

    If you, or anyone else, ever feels any of the mods are crossing the line, there's always marcus and miradu that you can turn to.

    Mike's already pointed out the we mods have our own line of communication to discuss issues such as this, and almost always we do (as was definitely done in this case I can assure you). None of us shoot from the hip just for the fun of it.

    (Looking back on this, it dawns on me that this is a gigantic waste of time. Might as well be talkng to my dog. Except, of course, my dog loves me)
    This is the type of sarcasm that drives me nuts! Under the circumstances, don't you think it would have been wiser to NOT make a comment like this? Or, is there more than one way to interpret it and I've obviously chosen the wrong one? sheesh...

    As for wasting time, do you think I like having to police people who'd rather test my patience than simply bite their tongue and play by the rules?
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
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  20.    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkEagle
    ...
    This is the type of sarcasm that drives me nuts! Under the circumstances, don't you think it would have been wiser to NOT make a comment like this? Or, is there more than one way to interpret it and I've obviously chosen the wrong one? sheesh...

    Sorry Mark this statement was not sarcastic at all. Why do you think I used the smiley? In fact it was utterly on target and factual. I did waste my time. As far as being wiser not to make the statement, it's against the rules to voice an opinion now? It was a statement of what I percieved the situation to be. I knew you guys would not even entertain the possibility that I had a valid point. Why? Because not one in the moderator department did anything but defend their position. No one bothered to actually look at what I had to say and see that maybe I had a valid point. I was hoping you could take off your moderator hats long enough to see this from the outside.
    Clearly the mods saw these posts as some kind of personal attack. (I have to wonder if that is part of mod training. Look for anything that could be a personal attack and kill it). That was not the case of course. I was questioning the validity and fairness of the discipline system. But no one can see that. Like I said a waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkEagle
    As for wasting time, do you think I like having to police people who'd rather test my patience than simply bite their tongue and play by the rules?
    Then why be a moderator? How do you know anyone is testing your patience until you read it? Other than the two posts in my threads in the last couple days, you havent posted since February, and I can only assume that that is at Toolkit's request. Interesting choice of words "test my patience". Indicates to me that you feel I was questioning your authority as a moderator, when in fact I was questioning the system of discipline and how it relates to the rules. No doubt the mods have supreme authority here. That has been stated on more than one occasion. I just didnt like the fact that you are allowed to decide on a whim the punishment for breaking the rules. You could all do different things in the same situation. I guess the members have to hope they get a happy mod when they screw up?

    Well I get it, ok. I understand that the way things are is the way things are. Spare me the "took you long eough" comments. It is clear to me how you say something is far more important than what you say. This is a fun place to discuss and interact. I see things from Mr Hebermans POV. A little spice is nice. But I guess bland is the law of the land.

    I really appreciate you taking time to respond. I wish you would have addressed my points about rules and discipline instead of just focusing on my statement about wasted time, but hey its your forum .
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
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