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  1.    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    this attitude of "secrecy" is but one embodiment of the sickness that has befallen this place.

    Except for the few who use their real names, most users here use anonymous virtual identities.

    The rationale that a plain explanation can't be offered for incomprehensible censorship decisions is a dodge -- a transparent one.
    I've explained it multiple times - the thread itself went off the rails. I've also stated that I will not publicly discuss user-specific issues but will talk about moderating in a general way as much as needed. That you're not happy with my explanation is regretable, but i stand by it. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

    FWIW: my name is Dieter Bohn and I live in Minneapolis.
  2. cardio's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    The thread that was closed is just one more example of what many have said they think is happening. An individual < redacted by septimus > makes a comment that the average person would see as an attempt to degrade someone else <redacted by septimus > and instead of holding the individual responsible the thread is closed. It appears that the mods are unwilling to take the action they say they are going to do in the original post in this thread.

    Post moderation will occur as follows:

    1st time) PM/Email warning. The text of your post will be replaced with "Sent to user for re-wording". (a second warning may be sent out at the moderator's discretion)

    2nd time) 1 week suspension.

    3rd time) Permanent suspension.

    It seems to me that the rules are different for different members. If the individual has already been suspended for one week I see no need to pass out a permanent suspension to anyone over this, but you should have dealt with the individual that made the comment as an individual. If you are unwilling to deal with individuals maybe this is not the right position for you to be in. If this gets me banned so be it, but that is how I feel this site is now being moderated, punish all for the actions of one.

    Guess somone was embaressed that their name was linked to their action and complained. I apologize if you were offended, but if you write it......
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  3. #43  
    Well, I am sad to say that after this last opportunity of trying to remain a consistent member of the TC community, as I have been for over 2 years, that I truly feel that my time here is marked that will add me to the ever growing list of long time TC members causalty list over this issue.

    I simply find it too frustrating to participate in discussions, which often takes a great deal of time to research and contribute educated and well sourced posts, only to find all my time thrown to the floor with thread closing vs addressing the offenses of the limited offenders while a majority of those participating in that thread have been civil and informative.

    I want to be clear that I understand and appreciate the point that is continually brought up that it is the mods judgment call. I also agree with the stated chain of actions for addressing personal offenders. I have just have a hard time when if personal offenses are not deemed bad enough to PM the offender, so the thread is closed that punishes all who contributed to the thread. I felt that I have shared some reasonable procedure options, which I don't feel were really recognized, addressed, and were passed over.

    I am sure I will lurk once in a while and still throw up a post a two as I go through my withdrawals from my multiple year addiction with TC, but nothing like the nearly daily activity I have come to enjoy here in both the OT and in the Win Mobile threads.

    This BTW is not a "you cannot please everyone" issue as seems to be the general answer to these concerns. I actually agree with that approach as a general rule in life and in forum moderation. But as you can see by the multiple threads on this very subject this is a wide spread view of a LARGE number of members, instead of few, that have at the very least expressed concerns about the recent practices, to struggling to stay active here (like myself), to having now already left TC for good over this thread closing issue. Many of those among them that have been banned, left TC due to this newly upscaled thread closing practice, etc.. off the top of my head they include many LONG TIME veterans or prominent members (but I am sure the following is not conclusive to those who have expressed concerns), like
    • Me, HobbesIsReal
    • Cardio,
    • Insertion,
    • Hoovs,
    • Dstrauss,
    • Haggar,
    • Advance The Man,
    • Barye,
    • Clairegrrl,
    • DrDoom,
    • dutchtrumpet,
    • Gaffa,
    • Gasmeister,
    • NRG,
    • heberman,
    • jmill72x,
    • kvcobra,
    • gtwo,
    • cellmatrix,
    • ScaryHumor,
    • Surur,
    • t2gungho,
    • TheLiveSoundGuy,
    • Bob Meyer,
    • berdinkerdickle,
    • JohnH59,
    • scandalex,
    • clulup,
    • Micael,
    • Lady Treo,
    • FrozenCode,
    • southbound747,
    • geatches
    There are several of these big contributors that are now already run off and will not participate in helping other current or future members of this community because of this issue.

    Again, I am not attacking, but trying to help maintain the TC community that has developed over the last several years, and feel that this issue is bigger than maybe realized with more dire consequences than originally intended for the well being and attractiveness of TC.
  4. #44  
    if you can't stand the heat.......
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttrundle
    if you can't stand the heat.......
    If you have followed this line of discussion for more than 10 seconds then you would know it has nothing to do with being sensitive. (And I doubt your approach is shared by septimus and all the mods.)
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  6. Haggar's Avatar
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    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttrundle
    if you can't stand the heat.......
    Care to finish that statement? I really don't understand the context.
    Luminary? You've got to be kidding!
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    FWIW: my name is Dieter Bohn and I live in Minneapolis.
    Maybe we should hook up some time down at Brits and have a pint? I promise not to wear my avatar's hair
    Luminary? You've got to be kidding!
  8.    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggar
    Maybe we should hook up some time down at Brits and have a pint? I promise not to wear my green hair
    I'll be at the Independent tonight from 7 - 8:30!

    heh, yah, we totally should to a Twin Cities meetup one of these days.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    If you have followed this line of discussion for more than 10 seconds then you would know it has nothing to do with being sensitive. (And I doubt your approach is shared by septimus and all the mods.)
    I have followed this line of discussion for more than 10 seconds thank you, and my statement stands even firmer.
    Last edited by ttrundle; 07/14/2006 at 04:49 PM.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggar
    Care to finish that statement? I really don't understand the context.
    ...get out of the kitchen.

    There, it's finished and that's your context!
  11. Haggar's Avatar
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    I'll be at the Independent tonight from 7 - 8:30!

    heh, yah, we totally should to a Twin Cities meetup one of these days.
    Dang...wife's out of town, I've got 3 kids to watch.

    ttrundle - no offense but you need some schooling about what context is. I have no idea what a kitchen has to do with the situation we've been discussing here.

    If you don't have anything of value to include in this discussion, why waste your time posting? If it bothers you that much that we have (in our opinions) ligitimate complaints...why not PM someone about it rather than making a big scene here?

    Hobbes, et. al still feel that their complaints and issues have not been dealt with directly. We can all agree to disagree about the source of these problems but throwing out useless comments just to get a rise out of us isn't bringing much to the table.
    Luminary? You've got to be kidding!
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttrundle
    I have followed this line of discussion for more than 10 seconds thank you, and my statement stands even firmer. Move on.
    One flaw...I have never had any heat what so ever as I have never been called on a single offense, even when the ones were specifically pointed out in the last thread closure. It is frustrating to have threads closed when a law abiding TC citizen is participating in due to other's behavior....over and over and over again....instead of the offending individuals being addressed.

    This I believe is the crux of what most of the veteran member's complaints are and the core reason for them leaving TC in such numbers.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggar
    Dang...wife's out of town, I've got 3 kids to watch.

    ttrundle - no offense but you need some schooling about what context is. I have no idea what a kitchen has to do with the situation we've been discussing here.

    If you don't have anything of value to include in this discussion, why waste your time posting? If it bothers you that much that we have (in our opinions) ligitimate complaints...why not PM someone about it rather than making a big scene here?

    Hobbes, et. al still feel that their complaints and issues have not been dealt with directly. We can all agree to disagree about the source of these problems but throwing out useless comments just to get a rise out of us isn't bringing much to the table.
    Holy smokes man, you're the one making the big deal about this.

    If you don't know the old addage about heat and the kitchen I'm not going to 'splain it now.
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    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    ...This I believe is the crux of what most of the veteran member's complaints are and the core reason for them leaving TC in such numbers.
    Concur. I would also add:
    1) IMO, the explanations/warnings/etc. go private far too easily under the current practice. The "thin, grey area" we keep talking about needs as much definition as possible, and the benefit that definition provides to the greater community far outweighs the potential thin skin of a few individuals who (presumably) instigated the issue in the first place.
    2) Another matter not covered in the guidelines that I will address via PM in accordance with said guidelines.

    Ironically (or not, now that I think on it more), I'm quickly fading out of this debate for the same reason that - although I enjoy(ed) lurking - I stay out of most OT political threads: everyone keeps doing this , and it's increasingly clear that no one is going to budge.
    ... Als sie mich holten, gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.
    ... Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out.
    -- Rev. Martin Niemöller

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  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by kvcobra
    Concur. I would also add:
    1) IMO, the explanations/warnings/etc. go private far too easily under the current practice. The "thin, grey area" we keep talking about needs as much definition as possible, and the benefit that definition provides to the greater community far outweighs the potential thin skin of a few individuals who (presumably) instigated the issue in the first place.
    2) Another matter not covered in the guidelines that I will address via PM in accordance with said guidelines.

    Ironically (or not, now that I think on it more), I'm quickly fading out of this debate for the same reason that - although I enjoy(ed) lurking - I stay out of most OT political threads: everyone keeps doing this , and it's increasingly clear that no one is going to budge.
    I fear you may be right kvcobra -- and I am exasperated.

    Unless and until the sites owner perceives a commercial hazard to the current situation, it is most unlikely to be modified by people who have an invested self interest in self justifying themselves.

    For years OT did fine all on its own.

    Random right and left met, argued, become friends, shared tech tips, and bought from here when they wanted stuff.

    It was a perfect synergistic self perpetuating circle -- one that needed no interference or intervention.

    We almost never heard from a mod.

    You would think that they are busy enough in the general forums to not need to "busy" themselves in OT.

    As I have earlier said they are seeking solutions where there are no problems -- and thereby creating them.

    Me, Hobbes, Haggar, Cardio etc. probably differ on most every political topic under the sun -- except we all are personally offended by the idea of censorship.

    Let senior members who are a respected part of OT, and who understand and appreciate the free flow of ideas, moderate OT.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    -- except we all are personally offended by the idea of censorship.

    Let senior members who are a respected part of OT, and who understand and appreciate the free flow of ideas, moderate OT.
    I certainly am offended by censorship and I have to agree that things were fine here for years. I have been here around 3 years so far. But I am not sure for how much longer. I am sure with the treos and accessories that I have bought from the site I have spent easily over $2.000 from the treo store in that time. (It's my weakness: I love gadgets.)

    It's a damn shame that people felt the need to muck up what had been going fine all by its lonesome. And I find it personally offensive that those in charge here don't even acknowldege that there has been a problem at all. Smacks of arrogance. I mean it's not like treocentral sells the cheapest stuff on the web or anything. I bought here out of a sense of obligation and loyalty. That is what I believe community is all about; you give as much as you take. As others have said, it is hard to break a habit that you have had for years. I have had treocentral as my home page. Leaving here isn't impossible or anything. I just can't help feeling deeply offended at what I see as wholely unwarranted intrusion here by site management.

    It's like the people on top don't get it. You didn't make this site what it has been. The community did. If you don't believe me, take a look at pdabuzz.com. After a shakeup there under different circumstances and a change in ownership, people abandoned it in droves.
    Sprint Treo 700p, Sony UX/TX, u720,
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  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by southbound747
    I certainly am offended by censorship and I have to agree that things were fine here for years. I have been here around 3 years so far. But I am not sure for how much longer. I am sure with the treos and accessories that I have bought from the site I have spent easily over $2.000 from the treo store in that time. (It's my weakness: I love gadgets.)
    I have a feeling that 'censorship' has been going on since the board was established...now I think some users just don't like where the line is drawn and who it might be drawn for. (I think you meant to put a comma in the $2.000 instead of a period).

    Quote Originally Posted by southbound747
    It's a damn shame that people felt the need to muck up what had been going fine all by its lonesome.
    IMO the personal attacks were not going 'fine'. Most of the political OT threads were being drawn on liberal and conservative lines. Ad hominem attacks do very little to improve the free flow of ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by southbound747
    And I find it personally offensive that those in charge here don't even acknowldege that there has been a problem at all. Smacks of arrogance.
    I agree with you here. I do think there were some threads that were moderated and the methods and words used were questionable. I also understand the other side of the coin. I understand why Septimus cant just come out and say "Moderator X" was wrong to say that. At the same time though...a lot of the mods here also partake in the discussions. They should be entitled to some flexibility (just as you and I have) in expressing our opinion. Had a mod who in fact did offend someone appologized, I think things may have been different.

    Quote Originally Posted by southbound747
    I mean it's not like treocentral sells the cheapest stuff on the web or anything. I bought here out of a sense of obligation and loyalty. That is what I believe community is all about; you give as much as you take.
    I don't buy anything here, but I promote the site with friends and family, I try to help out on things that I have some experience in and I try to participate when I can in the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by southbound747
    It's like the people on top don't get it. You didn't make this site what it has been. The community did. If you don't believe me, take a look at pdabuzz.com. After a shakeup there under different circumstances and a change in ownership, people abandoned it in droves.
    It's a good point but at the same time, the site (and the moderation) shouldnt be held hostage by people who post a lot on this site. I would expect though that if I was a moderator and I offended someone, I would try to make it right if I could.
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  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    [A]t the same time, the site (and the moderation) shouldnt be held hostage by people who post a lot on this site. I would expect though that if I was a moderator and I offended someone, I would try to make it right if I could.
    Yup. I think 95% of this hoo-hah could be solved if just a very, very few people put their ego in their pockets and tried to make amends.

    Because as much as we're all dancing around the question, we all probably sense that the number of members stinking up the joint is probably under 10. Maybe under 5.

    Going forward, it's pretty simple. Post as if you're talking politics with your mom (or pick someone you respect if it ain't yer mom ). That will keep the tone on the civil side. This is true for members and mods alike.

    As for the past, we're all entitled to F^^^ up sometimes. (Can I say that?). Clean up your side of the street and move on.

    I think the making amends part of things is tough right now for the participants. But it's like dating. Someone has to make the first move. It's scary. You might get ridiculed. But take the action anyway. You'll be free and the other guy will be still stewing in his resentments months from now, hating your guts and you won't even know it. Because you're a free man. That's your revenge.

    My personal opinion? It doesn't matter whether the mod in question was wrong or right. he should clean up his side of the street, makes amends as necessary for his actions (not the other guy's actions) and no bull&&&t weasely Clintonian amends, then there will immediately cease to be a tug of war here.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers
    Yup. I think 95% of this hoo-hah could be solved if just a very, very few people put their ego in their pockets and tried to make amends.
    How true. It takes and shows more 'strength' to say your sorry and to let by-gones be by-gones than it does to keep being stubborn.

    At the same time though, I see the arguments on both sides. I can see the side that says the moderation tends to favor a liberal viewpoint and I can see the side that says we have to have rules and they have to be enforced. Where they draw the line is difficult but I enjoy reading and participating in the conversations too much to let something like this persuade me not to come back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers
    Going forward, it's pretty simple. Post as if you're talking politics with your mom (or pick someone you respect if it ain't yer mom ). That will keep the tone on the civil side. This is true for members and mods alike.
    That and stay away from speaking about each other and keep the focus on the topic at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers
    My personal opinion? It doesn't matter whether the mod in question was wrong or right. he should clean up his side of the street, makes amends as necessary for his actions (not the other guy's actions) and no bull&&&t weasely Clintonian amends, then there will immediately cease to be a tug of war here.
    You had me all the way up until you got to the Clinton crack

    At some point, posters will either come back or they won't. I hope they will and I hope that the moderation evens out as the policies are implemented. I think its a good sign that at least the moderation (and the way its done) is being discussed out in the open with Septimus.
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  20. #60  
    It amazes me that no one on the TC management side of things is willing to say that the desired clean up process was implemented in a less than positive way. To me, it was like the posse rode into town and starting shooting at anything that moved and when the backlash started -- they huddled behind the guidelines.

    I think mutual respect should guide all of our actions in posting and moderation.

    But until someone from TC is willing to say "Yes, we rushed in and handled it poorly." I am not willing to come back. The joy has been sucked out of it for me.

    Cheers, Perry.
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