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  1. #21  
    There is a recent example of how frustrating it is to participate in discussion at TC since this whole closing thread crisis started several weeks ago driving away many long time veteran members which added a great deal of value to the TC community.

    In the Did Bush Lie?? You decide! Part II thread it was closed. There were personal comments made by Blaze. I and Cardio responded, the two those comments were targeted at. I never received a PM that my comments were out of line. I am only assuming that the others were not as well, but have not asked them personally. Instead of dealing the possible offenders, or simply deleting posts, or modifying them with the message stating Waiting for poster to modify content. The thread was simply closed.

    I want to be honest and say that this is what has been driving away the veteran members. This is what drove me away for several weeks. I decided to come back and try it again...and it happened again.

    I am not attacking here, simply struggling to keep myself from leaving a community I have come to love to be a part of over the last several years.
  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    In the Did Bush Lie?? You decide! Part II thread it was closed. There were personal comments made by Blaze. I and Cardio responded, the two those comments were targeted at. I never received a PM that my comments were out of line. I am only assuming that the others were not as well, but have not asked them personally. Instead of dealing the possible offenders, or simply deleting posts, or modifying them with the message stating Waiting for poster to modify content. The thread was simply closed.
    Yep, I closed that thread. The number of posts there that were getting a little to snippy was getting to be very large and I felt that clearing out all those posts one-by-one would have not only derailed the thread but also just been too much work. .

    I will note publicly that I did not pm warnings to anybody there - the individual posts didn't seem to rise to that level, but the overall tone of the thread went a little too far.

    I made a judgment call.
  3. NRG
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    #23  
    I feel deleting posts is the best way to handle this, not closing entire threads. People that get their post deleted can stew on the thought of why it got deleted. I feel it is a velvet glove approarch(delete single posts) as opposed to what resides inside the glove, the naked Iron fist approach(deleting/locking WHOLE threads) that will cure most of the ills.
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I feel deleting posts is the best way to handle this, not closing entire threads. People that get their post deleted can stew on the thought of why it got deleted. I feel it is a velvet glove approarch(delete single posts) as opposed to what resides inside the glove, the naked Iron fist approach(deleting/locking WHOLE threads) that will cure most of the ills.
    I agree with you.

    Yet as I said my post that went up just as yours did (right above), sometimes the overall tone of a thread can become too confrontational. I should clarify that I have no problem whatsoever with a new thread getting started up on the same topic - that's actually sometimes the best thing. A fresh start.
  5. #25  
    Thank you for responding to my email. I guess I am struggling to comprehend the new environment here at TC. I re-read the whole thread that was just closed. The only real offenses I can see were made or instigated in a response by one person, Blaze.

    I expressed this a fear in the beginning when all the thread closing started. Many members contribute valuable information in a civil way. One member comes a long and causes a thread to be closed. This can lead to misuse of this newly increased practice. If a member does not agree with a topic or with the original poster, etc... they can just make enough sly comments to get the thread closed. Leaving all the others frustrated and discouraged.

    This is why warnings to individuals, either publically or privately, should be steps taken before closing a thread in cases similar to this.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/13/2006 at 12:37 PM.
  6. cardio's Avatar
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    #26  
    The thread that was closed is just one more example of what many have said they think is happening. An individual < redacted by septimus > makes a comment that the average person would see as an attempt to degrade someone else <redacted by septimus > and instead of holding the individual responsible the thread is closed. It appears that the mods are unwilling to take the action they say they are going to do in the original post in this thread.

    Post moderation will occur as follows:

    1st time) PM/Email warning. The text of your post will be replaced with "Sent to user for re-wording". (a second warning may be sent out at the moderator's discretion)

    2nd time) 1 week suspension.

    3rd time) Permanent suspension.

    It seems to me that the rules are different for different members. If the individual has already been suspended for one week I see no need to pass out a permanent suspension to anyone over this, but you should have dealt with the individual that made the comment as an individual. If you are unwilling to deal with individuals maybe this is not the right position for you to be in. If this gets me banned so be it, but that is how I feel this site is now being moderated, punish all for the actions of one.
    Last edited by Dieter Bohn; 07/14/2006 at 11:32 AM. Reason: personal mentions
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Post moderation will occur as follows:

    1st time) PM/Email warning. The text of your post will be replaced with "Sent to user for re-wording". (a second warning may be sent out at the moderator's discretion)

    2nd time) 1 week suspension.

    3rd time) Permanent suspension
    I think I have noted before that I have been a professional Mod for a large forum community in the past. I think as original stated in the OP, this is a good procedure. The only other suggestion I might add is that there may be a pre-step of a post in the thread by the mod to point out the offensive behavior and possible a request to modify the offending post, then followed by a PM if continued. I think this is a valuable step to let the members help monitor themselves as 99% of them are responsible enough to do so, even though it may take a post to prompt them to do so.

    This has two main advantages:

    1) As mentioned gives the members an opportunity to moderate themselves

    2) It gives the community an continual understanding of the expectations and perceptions of the mods.
  8. cardio's Avatar
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I think I have noted before that I have been a professional Mod for a large forum community in the past. I think as original stated in the OP, this is a good procedure. The only other suggestion I might add is that there may be a pre-step of a post in the thread by the mod to point out the offensive behavior and possible a request to modify the offending post, then followed by a PM if continued. I think this is a valuable step to let the members help monitor themselves as 99% of them are responsible enough to do so, even though it may take a post to prompt them to do so.

    This has two main advantages:

    1) As mentioned gives the members an opportunity to moderate themselves

    2) It gives the community an continual understanding of the expectations and perceptions of the mods.
    I agree, however this is not being followed on this site. If someone degrades another member the answer is close the thread, let the individual run free, even after one suspension and warnings. I am not advocating him being banned, but adress him, not simply close the thread so you do not have to deal with the issue. That is what I see happening.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I agree, however this is not being followed on this site.
    The Guidelines state:
    Doing anything of the following will result, without question, in your post/thread being edited, deleted or locked by a moderator, and the appropriate user being warned or banned
    This new procedure wasn't being followed before yesterday because that's when it was implemented (or "clarified" as Septimus wrote). At least give us a chance to put it into action...
    .
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    MarkEagle
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  10. cardio's Avatar
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    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkEagle
    The Guidelines state:

    This new procedure wasn't being followed before yesterday because that's when it was implemented (or "clarified" as Septimus wrote). At least give us a chance to put it into action...
    This happened TODAY. Once you publish the rules, they should be followed, especially by the one who posted the rules. The overall discussion was civil, an individual made a comment, the comment was replied to in a civil manner (it could have been much worse trust me) and the solution was to close the thread instead of dealing with the individual or individuals.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    This happened TODAY.
    Sorry... I didn't see the thread in question until after my post above.


    Once you publish the rules, they should be followed, especially by the one who posted the rules.
    As far as I can see they were followed. A thread was closed and an explanation was given.

    Thread moderation will occur as follows:

    A moderator will close the thread with an explanation. Unless the thread is especially egregious (or spam), it will remain visible. Again, this falls within moderator discretion.
    He even specified why he moderated the thread and not the individual posts.

    This is precisely what I was referring to earlier:
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkEagle
    We all know that no matter what, why, or how something happens, at least one person won't be happy about it.
    .
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    MarkEagle
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  12. #32  
    How about this one:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=119953

    We've now gotten to the point where the mods don't just close threads or delete posts, they edit them to be more PC.

    The mods have driven some of TCs most experienced members away, and we're all poorer for their absence.
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  13. #33  
    I have done this for quite some time now. http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=103530

    I've had it set up to exclude OT also.
    Just call me Berd.
  14. cardio's Avatar
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkEagle
    Sorry... I didn't see the thread in question until after my post above.


    As far as I can see they were followed. A thread was closed and an explanation was given.


    He even specified why he moderated the thread and not the individual posts.

    This is precisely what I was referring to earlier:
    While technically that can be called an explanation of why the thread was closed it is a **** poor reason. I did not want to take the time to rmove the offensive post (1 post????), only one post had a derogatory comment (maybe my reply to the degoratory post was borderline) so I will give him the benfit of the doubt 2 post. These rules were not followed

    Post moderation will occur as follows:

    1st time) PM/Email warning. The text of your post will be replaced with "Sent to user for re-wording". (a second warning may be sent out at the moderator's discretion)

    2nd time) 1 week suspension.

    3rd time) Permanent suspension

    I suggest a one week suspension of Septimus for failing to follow the rules.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    How about this one:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=119953

    We've now gotten to the point where the mods don't just close threads or delete posts, they edit them to be more PC.

    The mods have driven some of TCs most experienced members away, and we're all poorer for their absence.
    First of all you don't know what the original title said, but still you assume quite a lot...
    You probably know the saying about assuming so I wont even have to go there..

    Secondly, what is wrong with staying civil? I dislike being PC for the sake of being PC just as much as you but I also dislike being rude for the sake of being rude.

    Finally this site is meant for an all ages group so we expect people to behave the way they would in civil company.
    If you want to go swearing etc. this simply isnt the right location for it..
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  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    While technically that can be called an explanation of why the thread was closed it is a **** poor reason. I did not want to take the time to rmove the offensive post (1 post????), only one post had a derogatory comment (maybe my reply to the degoratory post was borderline) so I will give him the benfit of the doubt 2 post. These rules were not followed
    it was multiple posts.[/quote]
    I suggest a one week suspension of Septimus for failing to follow the rules.
    Har Har.

    I'm getting a little tired of all this. Nobody will be happy with every moderation action, that's the way of things. I made a judgment call on that thread and I think it was appropriate. You do not. That's ok.

    I'll note that everybody keeps quoting the three steps and omitting the part about moderator discretion.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    I'll note that everybody keeps quoting the three steps and omitting the part about moderator discretion.
    You beat me to that point

    Right below the 3 steps it also says:

    Thread moderation will occur as follows:

    A moderator will close the thread with an explanation. Unless the thread is especially egregious (or spam), it will remain visible. Again, this falls within moderator discretion.
    This was a clear case of thread moderation..
    Sometimes post moderation simply doesnt cut it and you have to resort to bigger measures..

    You can blame 2 people for that:
    a) the mods for doing their job
    b) the offending users for acting in an uncivil way..

    there will allways be a grey area of where to draw the line, but as said before that is up to moderator discretion. If you dont like the call PM septimus and/or send an email to marcus..
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  18. cardio's Avatar
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    it was multiple posts.
    Har Har.

    I'm getting a little tired of all this. Nobody will be happy with every moderation action, that's the way of things. I made a judgment call on that thread and I think it was appropriate. You do not. That's ok.

    I'll note that everybody keeps quoting the three steps and omitting the part about moderator discretion.[/QUOTE]

    I just went back and reread the thread, would you be willing to share with us these multiple posts that were offensive? I honestly only see one that became to the point of name calling or being derogatory, the rest were discussions and explanations.

    You are absolutely right moderator discretion, but you need use the discretion while adhering to the rules you set forth otherwise it is not seen as discretion, but as someone on a power trip or something.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  19.    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I just went back and reread the thread, would you be willing to share with us these multiple posts that were offensive? I honestly only see one that became to the point of name calling or being derogatory, the rest were discussions and explanations.
    I will PM you the posts that I had trouble with.

    The real issue, though, may not necessarily be easily distilled down to a single post or two, rather the tone of the thread as a whole can go off the rails.

    I appreciate that everyone is asking questions and I will speak generally about issues whenever I can.

    edit: It occurs to me that I was writing something in the PM that I can share publicly: closing that thread was a statement about the thread itself, not necessarily any particular user.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    I will PM you the posts that I had trouble with...
    edit: It occurs to me that I was writing something in the PM that I can share publicly: closing that thread was a statement about the thread itself, not necessarily any particular user.
    this attitude of "secrecy" is but one embodiment of the sickness that has befallen this place.

    Except for the few who use their real names, most users here use anonymous virtual identities.

    The rationale that a plain explanation can't be offered for incomprehensible censorship decisions is a dodge -- a transparent one.
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