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  1. Postal's Avatar
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    #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    The two things are not inconsistent. Publicly asking about moderation is fine as long as it's kept polite. Moderation issues that are specific to either a user or a moderator are to be dealt with over PM.
    Now I'm really confused. To quote Marcus again...
    Quote Originally Posted by marcus
    Questioning moderator's actions should be allowed as long as the dialog is cordial; maybe we need a seperate sub-forum for it.
    Yet you say...

    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    Publicly asking about moderation is fine as long as it's kept polite. Moderation issues that are specific to either a user or a moderator are to be dealt with over PM.
    Marcus did not write "moderation" as you wrote, he specifically wrote "Questioning moderator's actions should be allowed". Your statement is very different from his, please explain.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by Postal
    Marcus did not write "moderation" as you wrote, he specifically wrote "Questioning moderator's actions should be allowed". Your statement is very different from his, please explain.
    Ok. We (Marcus, myself, and the moderators) decided clarify that, as I've said many times, while it's appropriate to discuss issues of moderation publicly in a general way, specific questions should be dealt with via PM.

    I'll note that Marcus wrote "as long as it's cordial" immediately after "should be allowed." From now on, take "cordial" to mean "without specific reference to users or moderators." Basically, if it's a personal issue, deal with it via PM. If it's a question of what the moderation policy is in general (or even why a thread was moderated in general, in certain cases), feel free to discuss it publicly.

    Lastly, I'll note that Marcus' involvement in these boards is still going to remain very small. If you have a question or concern, PM me or email me at dieter@treocentral.com .
  3. Postal's Avatar
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    #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    Ok. We (Marcus, myself, and the moderators) decided clarify that, as I've said many times, while it's appropriate to discuss issues of moderation publicly in a general way, specific questions should be dealt with via PM.

    I'll note that Marcus wrote "as long as it's cordial" immediately after "should be allowed." From now on, take "cordial" to mean "without specific reference to users or moderators." Basically, if it's a personal issue, deal with it via PM. If it's a question of what the moderation policy is in general (or even why a thread was moderated in general, in certain cases), feel free to discuss it publicly.

    Lastly, I'll note that Marcus' involvement in these boards is still going to remain very small. If you have a question or concern, PM me or email me at dieter@treocentral.com .
    Just so I understand this, what Marcus wrote himself is no longer true and what you wrote is now policy, correct?
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Postal
    Just so I understand this, what Marcus wrote himself is no longer true and what you wrote is now policy, correct?
    As I've said, I don't think that the two are entirely inconsistent. But what I've written is the policy now.
  5. Postal's Avatar
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    #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    As I've said, I don't think that the two are entirely inconsistent. But what I've written is the policy now.
    I know your a fan of the "let's agree to disagree" routine, but you lose credibility when your faced with two quotes stating two totally different things, yet you claim they mean the same thing.

    Similarly, you've said in the past regarding mods...
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    They have done an excellent job, without qualification or exception.
    Yet everyone has read the many unprofessional items mods have written in the past. Forget apologies, at this point a bit of honesty would be refreshing.
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by Postal
    I know your a fan of the "let's agree to disagree" routine, but you lose credibility when your faced with two quotes stating two totally different things, yet you claim they mean the same thing.

    Similarly, you've said in the past regarding mods...

    Yet everyone has read the many unprofessional items mods have written in the past. Forget apologies, at this point a bit of honesty would be refreshing.
    After the initial onslaught of protests, many understood Marcus' promise that he'd heard our complaints and that he'd address them when he returned from China, as a hopeful indication that he recognized that damage had been done to the fabric of the TC community -- and that he'd personally involve himself in repairing things when he came back.

    that implied promise was not kept from my point of view.

    With great sincerity we were assured that he was in China, now in Sweden, that he was unreachable, that his input was wanted by them as much as by us.

    I fear that because much of the earlier pre mod-massacre forum volume has recovered, the easy course of not acknowledging error has become doctrinal.

    the desire to say: "trust us", and the temptation to use secrecy are understandable -- but they’re also an identifying characteristic of tyrannies.

    as I have said previously, the idea of non-public "private" discussion of these matters is inherently corrosive. If an action, threat, or banning cannot be publicly explained and generally understood and accepted as merited, then it would seem, by definition, unjustified.


    (here's a rough chronology I previously assembled of the discussion of this issue: )


    06/22/06
    marcus: I am going to have chat with the moderators when I get back into town.

    The bottom line is keep discussion civil, no foul language or attacks on other members. Questioning moderator's actions should be allowed as long as the dialog is cordial; maybe we need a seperate sub-forum for it.

    06/24/2006
    MarkEagle: "...I don't believe any of the mods have ever spoken for marcus "


    (When more than a week passed, I, scandalex, and others, asked what became of the promise.)


    06/29/2006
    BARYE: "they promised to address the complaints of the users here -- complaints that came from the whole spectrum of the participants of this forum -- complaints as to the destructive and capricious mod behavior which has eviscerated the life and vitality of this place.

    No new policies have been announced.

    Long time forum members -- experienced loyal members who made a point of purchasing from this site’s sponsor -- have left -- alienated by the arrogant indifference of the controlling powers that be.

    The 1 or 2 people who posted mildly approving words supportive of the mods, have it seems, become the skirt behind which inaction is justified.

    Every day during which things are allowed to twist, twist, slowly in the wind, is another day toward a time when long time posters will not return and the forum smothered of life."

    06/29/2006
    MarkEagle: "marcus is over in China and hasn't had time to discuss this. He has told us that he will when he returns (this weekend?). I expect we'll have something tangible after the holiday."

    07/9/06
    ToolkiT: "Last thing I heard was that Marcus is currently in Sweden.."
    As has already been said, he's on vacation (or something) in Sweden through the end of this week. My understanding is that he's got limited web and email access while he's there so there's really nothing he can do at the moment.

    07/10/2006
    DrDoom: "that's it then? No explanation? No reasonable argument for what went down? NO detailed statement from Marcus coming down either for or against the actions of certain moderators?

    07/10/2006
    MarkEagle: "Trust me, we want to hear from him as badly as you do,"

    07/10/2006
    septimus: "I'll second mark eagle on that - Marcus is doing a lot of traveling and we're all a little reticent to accidentally speak 'for' him even if that's not our intent. The mods are all tracking the issue and Marcus is about as busy as a human being can be without spontaneously combusting.

    It's one of the problems with the speed of the internet - what used to be a normal delay in communication now seems unbearable."

    07/11/2006
    Dr. Doom: Alright. Apologies then. It's a very raw nerve with a good many people being upset. Personally I was pretty upset with the entire situation and it didn't even really affect me. I understand no one wanting to speak for Marcus. We shall wait patiently.

    07/11/2006
    septimus: "...My name is Dieter Bohn. I've been hired on at Treocentral as "Community Editor," which is a title that basically means Marcus has delegated much of the work related to the content and community of Treocentral to me...
    It also means that Marcus is a very very busy guy and if you have any questions about the Treocentral community, send them to me...
    I'm now another moderator here as well. I've been a member of these boards for over 5 years now...

    07/12/2006 (3am)
    BARYE: "...Weeks ago the owner of this site assured the thousands of people who have viewed the primary thread on this topic that he would address our concerns.

    I fear that the unspoken implication of your now surfacing is the suggestion that the owner in effect has decided to not intervene -- to not follow through with the promise implied in his original statement.

    Am I being too cynical ??..."

    07/12/2006 (12:28 PM)
    ...The moderators have exercised their powers in what I can only describe as a fair and restrained manner. Moderating discussion boards is a difficult and (increasingly) thankless job. They have done an excellent job, without qualification or exception.

    ...There have been and will be some complaints about moderation decisions. The first appropriate place for them is a private message to the moderator. Or you may email me anytime at dieter@treocentral.com . Finally, you may also private message me. Because bans are often quite personal to the people involved, all of us have decided that concerns about them will be dealt with privately.

    07/12/2006 (12:30 PM)
    septimus:"...Questions and concerns about the above are best directed to me - dieter@treocentral.com . As Community Editor - I've taken responsibility for the forums off of Marcus' shoulders. I'll leave this thread open on the assumption that we can keep it civil."
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  7. #127  
    when I stop laughing I'll address some of the posts since my last. My eyes are watering too much right now to type clearly
  8. #128  
    I've participated as fully as I have in this thread (and left it open) despite some abuse in an attempt to maintain open and honest and *civil* discussion about moderation. I'm at a loss to try to address all of the mischaracterizations in the previous few posts and frankly, if it isn't already clear, I've become hot under the collar. But given the apparent perception among a few that we're aiming for censorship here, I'll go against my better judgment and respond publicly rather than edit the above.

    by postal
    I know your a fan of the "let's agree to disagree" routine, but you lose credibility when your faced with two quotes stating two totally different things, yet you claim they mean the same thing.
    Questions about moderation regarding specific users or moderators will be handled over PM. All general moderation questions can and should be handled publicly. This is a perfectly reasonable balance and it is one that Marcus agrees with. If you need me to say this is a change from an earlier policy, I sure can. It's academic now. The policy is now as we have stated it. Marcus hired me on as Community Editor in part to make these judgments so he could focus on other things.

    by Barye
    I fear that because much of the earlier pre mod-massacre forum volume has recovered, the easy course of not acknowledging error has become doctrinal.
    The moderators have done an excellent job, without qualification or exception. To say that is is "not acknowledging error" assumes that there is error to acknowledge. There is not. To call it a "massacre" is offensive. To call moderators "doctrinal" is similarly offensive. Our policy is the result of collaboration, reflection, and and honest commitment to the community. (And if you think engaging in this discussion is "easy" for me--- hoo doggy!! :-) )

    the desire to say: "trust us", and the temptation to use secrecy are understandable -- but they’re also an identifying characteristic of tyrannies.
    I'll not be called a tyrant and I'll not have moderators called tyrants. Not only is it insulting, it's an inaccurate and inflammatory analogy. It assumes that there is an 'either/or' choice: "either complete free-for-all / or evil dictators censoring everybody." Neither case obtains here and never has. If you won't "trust us", at least give us a little credit.

    as I have said previously, the idea of non-public "private" discussion of these matters is inherently corrosive. If an action, threat, or banning cannot be publicly explained and generally understood and accepted as merited, then it would seem, by definition, unjustified.
    I disagree that private discussion of specific issues of moderation is corrosive. Strongly. I find it more corrosive to the community by an order of magnitude to publicly shame or single out users. I find it more corrosive to the community by a further order of magnitude to have volunteer moderators publicly belittled and attacked. Better it all be handled over PM in both cases. Finally, moderation need not be 'generally accepted as merited' in order to be justified. Moderators as moderators exercise critical judgment from a perspective that is not generally available.

    ---

    I am beginning to think that this discussion is played-out. As postal said, I am a fan of agreeing to disagree. I've made our policies clear and I think it is abundantly clear that they are measured and fair.

    What I've said here really isn't up for discussion anymore, so I'm closing the thread.
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