Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 128
  1. #21  
    Thanks Marcus.
    I started out at MTDN, but I really grew to like it here more than anywhere else. Mainly because of the free flow. I'd like to see it stay that way. I hope you can find a good solution. One that doesn't cater too much to the overly sensitive either.
    Just call me Berd.
  2. #22  
    warning: long post ahead --

    The current OT crisis here at Treocentral reminds me of two things.

    One is the crusade that the GOP introduces every election year to enact a constitutional amendment to ban flag burning.

    Its a particularly painful illustration of the principle that I alluded to in my earlier post: a solution looking for a problem. (last I checked, flag burning was not causing global warming...)

    I’ve been around this place for awhile. I’ve criticized childish flaming, stayed away from threads where there were personal attacks -- and I have derided instances of the like minded “circle jerking”. But through it all we always seemed to have a lively debate, where even very different people could become here at least, friends.

    I suspect that 1911sforever truly valued NRG’s and me expressing our hope that he’d be safe in his new career. Hoovs, hoobes, dstraus, my evil brother, clairgrrl etc. have willingly let themselves become players in my little stories.

    From friendship grows tolerance -- from tolerance we sometime find understanding of another’s point of view.

    The other is a true story that I’ve witnessed.

    In the drugstore recently, and someone was waiting in a very long line to pay for their chilled (Starbucks) coffee drink.

    They broke its seal and began to drink almost all of it.

    The store’s security guard -- perhaps 19, and probably a H.S. dropout -- belligerently confronted the Starbucks drinker, and shouted menacingly, that he was supposed to “pay for that before opening it” -- and threatened to arrest him.

    With great forbearance I pretended to not hear this turd -- while inside I waited coiled with anger for the hand on my shoulder that thankfully never came.

    He was a simple fool given an assignment that he didn’t truly have the mental agility for. The nuances of his role were a bit beyond him. But because he lacked the subtlety of knowing the difference between the rigid application of “rules” and understanding what things were really all about, the very enterprise he was assigned to protect was put at risk.

    That same mentality has put at risk this forum recently, unfortunately.

    A monkey’s proposal:

    I recommend OT arbitrators -- chosen from respected members of the forum -- who would be there to provide a buffer from what has nearly universally become seen as arbitrary and capricious decisions that have endangered the very existence of the forum.

    These arbitrators would be devoted to the free flow of the forum, as well as the maintenance of a friendly flameless environment.

    I propose 2 to 4 arbitrators. A mod would need the assent of at least one to implement the temporary freezing of a thread, or the temporary banning of a member.

    2 votes would be needed to make the freeze permanent -- or to decide on both the desirability and the length of a banning.

    If 4 arbitrators, at least one right and left vote would be required to finalize any decision.

    The arbitrators -- from both the right and left -- would be members respected by the other side, and who have themselves never been a part of any flame wars or personal attacks.

    All recent bans would be unfrozen, and (without necessarily admitting any past misconduct) ex-banees would pledge to refrain from any and all personal (as opposed to political) attacks. I would suggest if there are personal issues still outstanding between individual members, that they be given a chance in a thread for a few days to get those problems at least expressed, and hopefully resolved.

    In any event, attacking one another’s political opinions is an accepted and valued part of the culture here. We assault with humor, sarcasm, and irony, the ridiculous views of our political adversaries. We never forget though -- that our opponents are first, and last, our friends.

    We will not say anything that is a personal attack. (i.e. -- I will no more want to see any of the intolerable inter specie denigration that I have too often been subject to !!)

    It is understood -- and a warning can be posted accordingly -- that OT is a arena for intelligent mature conversation and argument.

    But as a general rule, a significant amount of leeway will be given to the use of even inflammatory political terminology -- as long as the conversation does not become personal.

    Through long observation I’ve noticed that the first interaction between any 2 participants has an enduring effect on their relationships far into the future.

    Grudges and unresolved grievances formed early, last long and become expressed eventually in an increasingly poisonous way.

    Saying something humorous and or friendly in beginning your first reply to an opponent, is encouraged.

    In general, taking a political critique personally is perhaps evidence that you have too thin a skin for the give and take that this forum lives for.

    Humor, humor, humor -- it is the grease that lubricates the inevitable friction of any debate.

    I have spoken to no one else about this, so my proposal may well be more presumptuous than most of what I say around here. I propose that I and Shopharim be the arbitrators. We come from different sides of the debate here, neither of us have been a part of flame wars or personal attacks -- and the opposite side probably trusts our fairness.

    Should 4 arbitrators be preferred, I’d recommend me, Shopharim, Hobbes, and NRG.

    My interest is in restoring the health of OT. This is in all our (the participants) interest, as well as Treocentral’s.

    Though I’m short, hairy, have opposable toes, and an emperor complex -- at least give this proposal some serious consideration.
    Last edited by BARYE; 06/29/2006 at 10:14 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcus
    I am going to have chat with the moderators when I get back into town.

    The bottom line is keep discussion civil, no faul language or attacks on other members. Questioning moderator's actions should be allowed as long as the dialog is cordial; maybe we need a seperate sub-forum for it.
    That was like the voice of God.

    Very cool for you to weigh in Marcus.

    There are a lot of reasonable, but confused and angry people leaving, and being pushed out in droves.
    I love your store and your products, most recently my Treo hardcase. If you like, pm me, and I'll give you my info and you can see the $$ I've spent there.

    But I am utterly dismayed by recent actions of the moderators. This last statement alone would cause them to ban me, as they have to many others in recent days. I'm hoping that my talking to you, cooler heads will prevail.

    I'm sending this in a separate email also, because recently, posts even hinting at criticism, have just disappeared. No explanation, no response to questions about it.

    Marcus, again, thank you for not ignoring this.
    I find it sad/odd that people ask to be thanked. How genuine is it when you have to ask? It's like forcing your kid to call Grandma, to thank her for the new underwear she sent for their birthday.

    "To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
    -Jack Handy, SNL-


  4. #24  
    Dutch with all due respect for your extensive contributions to this forum, as you sure some of what you feel may be not be derived from toolkit's liberal viewpoint?

    I think he is one of the better mods because he is honest about his opinions.

    What I find interesting are those who pretend they are above politics when they really are not.

    as far as this "there really is nothing we can do" attitude, I respectfully disagree.

    there is certainly a way of fixing this problem short of the heavy handed approach being applied here.

    I fear now that people will feel inhibited from critcising anything around here and this forum will degenerate into a simply a cheerleading vehicle to promote accessory/software sales.

    I hope I am wrong.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Dutch with all due respect for your extensive contributions to this forum, as you sure some of what you feel may be not be derived from toolkit's liberal viewpoint?

    I think he is one of the better mods because he is honest about his opinions.

    What I find interesting are those who pretend they are above politics when they really are not.

    as far as this "there really is nothing we can do" attitude, I respectfully disagree.

    there is certainly a way of fixing this problem short of the heavy handed approach being applied here.

    I fear now that people will feel inhibited from critcising anything around here and this forum will degenerate into a simply a cheerleading vehicle to promote accessory/software sales.

    I hope I am wrong.



    No...I could care less if he is liberal. Half of family is and I love them dearly. My Brother whom I admire more than I can say is a liberal. I keep trying to figure out what I'm missing.

    Honestly, I forgot toolkit was a liberal. I'm not talking about the political discussions. Just the characteristics that I described earlier. Also, this is not my site. It is Marcus'. I only ask that he review the comments and see if it is line with what he expects.

    Did you read the now vanished "why the crusade" thread?

    take care,

    ph
  6. #26  
    unfortunately I missed it.
  7. #27  
    Please Do Not read sarcasm or malice into the following:

    I know it is really none of my business. But, I’m trying to go back and see what caused this Landslide.

    I looked for the first ‘Warning Thread’ that I saw.
    (Couldn’t find it) It was then that I first became aware of the concern.
    Because, like I said; ‘I don’t spend most my T/C time over at OT.’
    So if there had been a lot of discussion on how OT Threads were getting out of line, had there also been discussion on how it should be handled? Yea, I don’t know about possible private warnings.
    I sincerely believe some of the initial comments by some of the mods were intended without intimidation or threat.
    Because KR said something like; ‘I was trying to add a little humor, or keep it light’ which I feel was a good attempt.
    But the responses by some Members, shows that it came across more like a public announcement; ‘Start towing the line, or I am going to open a can!’ And that is how I first took it also.

    Note:
    Please DO NOT take the following, as if I’m calling the banned, a bunch of punks.

    Do any of you remember the Movie ‘Blackboard Jungle (1955)’ a movie about vicious high school thugs. Glenn Ford plays a genuinely concerned teacher dealing with students who act like punks. Does he step in and say ‘you guys stop your messing around or I will have you expelled?’
    No, Like Bayre suggests having an arbitrator from one of their own (Sidney Poitier), Keeping it in bounds.
    Somebody respected by that radical gang of hoodlums.

    Bayre seems to suggest that these arbitrators would work closely with the mods. I would suggest that only one or two mods oversee the OT forum and the arbitrators. Again, mods who are already respected.

    I don’t know how Ronbo2000 would feel, but he seems to hang around a lot, and the guys like and respect him.
    Just call me Berd.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle
    Please Do Not read sarcasm or malice into the following:

    I know it is really none of my business. But, I’m trying to go back and see what caused this Landslide.

    I looked for the first ‘Warning Thread’ that I saw.
    (Couldn’t find it) It was then that I first became aware of the concern.
    Because, like I said; ‘I don’t spend most my T/C time over at OT.’
    So if there had been a lot of discussion on how OT Threads were getting out of line, had there also been discussion on how it should be handled? Yea, I don’t know about possible private warnings.
    I sincerely believe some of the initial comments by some of the mods were intended without intimidation or threat.
    Because KR said something like; ‘I was trying to add a little humor, or keep it light’ which I feel was a good attempt.
    But the responses by some Members, shows that it came across more like a public announcement; ‘Start towing the line, or I am going to open a can!’ And that is how I first took it also.
    You sir are right on the money...
    Its very easy to be misintepreted online.

    Same story happened when I pointed out somebody misinterpreted the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle

    Do any of you remember the Movie ‘Blackboard Jungle (1955)’ a movie about vicious high school thugs. Glenn Ford plays a genuinely concerned teacher dealing with students who act like punks. Does he step in and say ‘you guys stop your messing around or I will have you expelled?’
    No, Like Bayre suggests having an arbitrator from one of their own (Sidney Poitier), Keeping it in bounds.
    Somebody respected by that radical gang of hoodlums.

    Bayre seems to suggest that these arbitrators would work closely with the mods. I would suggest that only one or two mods oversee the OT forum and the arbitrators. Again, mods who are already respected.

    I don’t know how Ronbo2000 would feel, but he seems to hang around a lot, and the guys like and respect him.
    Thats an interesting concept, I'll pass it on to Marcus.
    Only problem is that it would only work if the objectives are all alligned. if the arbitrators have their own agenda the whole plan falls appart..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle
    ... I’m trying to go back and see what caused this Landslide...
    hey berdinkerdickle -- some other threads that you might want to look at were:

    U.S. accused in more Iraq civilian deaths

    To Iraq Invasion Supporters, where's the tipping point?

    the beginnings (<80) of the:

    2500 have died -- what will the end look like ??

    and you probably have already read:

    The art of debate?

    but worth reading if you haven't.

    In general, the last several months have seen undeniably, an increase in the venom and acrimony of the exchanges here.

    Perhaps there has been too much passion and too little mutual respect. But this is a problem internal to this forum and best handled by us.

    ...Do any of you remember the Movie ‘Blackboard Jungle (1955)’ a movie about vicious high school thugs. Glenn Ford plays a genuinely concerned teacher dealing with students who act like punks. Does he step in and say ‘you guys stop your messing around or I will have you expelled?’
    No, Like Bayre suggests having an arbitrator from one of their own (Sidney Poitier), Keeping it in bounds.
    Somebody respected by that radical gang of hoodlums.

    Bayre seems to suggest that these arbitrators would work closely with the mods. I would suggest that only one or two mods oversee the OT forum and the arbitrators. Again, mods who are already respected.

    I don’t know how Ronbo2000 would feel, but he seems to hang around a lot, and the guys like and respect him.
    in addition to what I've already written about "arbitrators", I recommend that within the OT forum that if 2 opposite side arbitrators both agree that something or someone was out of bounds, that they'd independently (without mods) have the power to delete or ban etc.

    Any action would naturally have at least some explanation associated with -- both for the illumination of any miscreant, as well as for the community in general.
    Last edited by BARYE; 06/22/2006 at 01:33 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  10. #30  
    I think we should do at least one thing that Barye mentions, lets put up a warning the first time a user enters the OT forum, save it in a cookie that the user has agreed, and let's put in some language like 'the views in this forum do not represent the vision of Treocentral or its management....'

    PS. what happened with blaze?
  11. #31  
    I haven't weighed in HERE simply because I KNEW I'd get angry and then banned. Now that someone seems to be listening, here's my thoughts.
    1. There NEEDS to be a place to question the mods. Even beyond that, there should be a place where mods are REQUIRED to explain their actions. Give the reason for a ban, WHY a particular thread was closed, etc. That's what's wrong with this country, be you liberal or conservative. No one's held ACCOUNTABLE for their actions! If the discussions go beyond cordial? Then that's unacceptable, but this "Never question a mod in public" crap should end. Now.
    2. Personally, its YOUR site Marcus, I have never seen a thread that was so inflammatory that it needed to be removed from view!?! I will be honest and tell you that this one action stunk so much to me that all the other evidence in the world wouldn't have swayed me to the side of the mods. It was censorship at its finest, and to me it reaked of socialist, Nazi-esque, spin control. Not good. Were it my decision, I would remove the ability to completely HIDE a thread from view. There's no need for it.
    Alright. That's about it. I know I said some fairly ugly things over at Munk's Place, and I meant 'em. However, if you make this right I will definitely continue to make purchases here, and enjoy the great community T/C became.
    Oh, one final thing. It APPEARS some people MAY have been banned for things they said in Munk's Forum. If this is true then I'm sorry, but the mod who made that decision should be removed. Permanently.
    Thanks again.
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  12. #32  
    I haven't used the "Report Bad Post" button more than three times in the past three years, but I've used it when surur sort of suggested he'd appreciate 1911sforever being killed in Iraq about a week ago.

    The result was that the thread was closed, killing a discussion which was quite good apart from some bad posts as the one mentioned.

    My point is, threads containing useful discussions (at least in part) should not be closed, just bad posts removed. People stepping over the line repeatedly should be banned for increasing amounts of time, and ultimately permanently.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  13. cardio's Avatar
    Posts
    779 Posts
    Global Posts
    787 Global Posts
    #33  
    I agree with most posts here. If an individual is being an ***** warn them, temp ban, then ban if they don't get the picture. If a post needs deleted, delete it, why hide a thread. If a mod bans someone they should tell why so others know what is not acceptable. As it is now, why bother posting, it will just be deleted if a mod disagrees and unfortunately I believe some have been harassed/deleted due to political reasons. I have asked mods in private messages why certain threads were closed and not others and was basically told it was their decision and not to be questioned. Oh well, time to shut up before I get banned.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The result was that the thread was closed, killing a discussion which was quite good apart from some bad posts as the one mentioned.

    My point is, threads containing useful discussions (at least in part) should not be closed, just bad posts removed. People stepping over the line repeatedly should be banned for increasing amounts of time, and ultimately permanently.
    I agree with Clulup....I have no motivation to make any posts if my time is going to filtered to the bottom of the pile because a thread is closed because one individual out of 8 active participants in that thread is not abiding by the rules or posting against the judgment of a mod.

    I can see see the current practice becoming a tool of those who do not like the original poster or the topic of the thread. All they have to do is post a few bad or even borderline questionable posts to get that whole thread closed, which is what they wanted.

    In the last day or two I have seen a couple threads closed....and I could not figure out why, which I wanted to know so I can figure out what is expected and what is a violation because at the moment I really don't have clue where the lines are. It almost appears that they were closed for nothing more than expressing political opinions.

    I would encourage a rule that if a Mod closes a thread, they explain why so all others know to avoid that same action in the future. If not, it is simply going to keep on being a repeated offense at the cost of total frustration of the members of that thread that was closed for an unknown reason or what rule they violated.

    Marcus.....I wanted to say thank you for your time in looking in this and taking to the time to respond to many of our concerns as we want to stay and enjoy the welcome atmosphere that TC has always offered in the past to everyone.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 06/23/2006 at 12:47 PM.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    In the last day or two I have seen a couple threads closed....and I could not figure out why, which I wanted to know so I can figure out what is expected and what is a violation because at the moment I really don't have clue where the lines are. It almost appears that they were closed for nothing more than expressing political opinions.

    I would encourage a rule that if a Mod closes a thread, they explain why so all others know to avoid that same action in the future. If not, it is simply going to keep on being a repeated offense at the cost of total frustration of the members of that thread that was closed for an unknown reason or what rule they violated.
    FYI that is the guideline we try to use, but having said that we have been a bit slack with that lately.
    I'll pass it on to the other mods...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The result was that the thread was closed, killing a discussion which was quite good apart from some bad posts as the one mentioned.

    My point is, threads containing useful discussions (at least in part) should not be closed, just bad posts removed. People stepping over the line repeatedly should be banned for increasing amounts of time, and ultimately permanently.
    The reason most threads get closed is because of the number of bad posts in them. In some threads it simply not worth the effert to filter all the bad posts out and we go for the easier option (i.e. close the thread)
    So in some cases the good suffer from the bad
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Marcus.....I wanted to say thank you for your time in looking in this and taking to the time to respond to many of our concerns as we want to stay and enjoy the welcome atmosphere that TC has always offered in the past to everyone.
    While this was targeted to Marcus I'd like to respond to it anyway.

    a welcome atmosphere is what we all want here. But lately the number of bad posts, personal attacks, namecalling and flame wars have escalated.
    Some people seem to think off topic is an anything goes area. But it isnt, the TC rules still apply here and the most important one is: respect the other users...

    The recent action of the mods was triggered by the events in the OT section, not because we are powerhungry maniacs (what some people seem to think ).
    I can't speak for the other mods, but personally I'd prefer it if I had to do as little moderating as possible and have everybody just get along.

    While we are busy debunking misconseptions:
    No user(s) have been banned for anything they did/said on other sites.
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  18. xtant21's Avatar
    Posts
    146 Posts
    Global Posts
    153 Global Posts
    #38  
    I wasn't involved in what really went on in the OT forum so in all honesty I don't know what the entire huge issue is here. I'm sure there were reasons why things were done they way they were. From what I am reading, I think things got out of hand on both sides of the coin here. It sounds like there was a particular reason for the initial ban to be set and then there was an enormous backlash resulting in some very long-time standing members being banned. I think the carnage just ended only a day or so ago.

    I've read a lot of what is out there on this whole topic and I don't disagree that some banning maybe was warranted but it then seems like it became a shouting match and the moderators will always have the louder voice when push comes to shove. Should they have to raise it to that level? No. Was some of the banning uncalled for...maybe. In the heat of the moment we all say things we don't mean and we all need to cool down. Case in point I think that's where we are now. The great cool off.

    Once everyone has gone to their corners and comes to their senses I hope TC is left undamaged. I may have only joined the forum a few months back but I visited the forum for help and answers back when it was visorcentral and I have come away with amazing and great info. I would hate to see people stay away because of what has transpired in the last few days, additionally, I'd hate to lose some of those members who have been helpful over the years. I'm very happy to see Marcus weigh in on all of this as this is his creation and we are all thankful to have it. TC is an invaluable source and a great place to share problems and solutions. Maybe any OT thread needs to have a better focus placed on it. By definition OT can be construed as anything goes. Most of us know that it means to stay within reason but some need more guiding.

    I know I have simply done nothing other than input my two cents here. But I think we all need or needed a time-out to get back on track. Let's hope we can put this whole thing behind us and find a happy medium. Again, I'd hate to lose some of the people that are banned...others maybe deserved it. Let's really make sure we have dealt death blows where they belong...and let's all just get along.
    Beware the lollipop of mediocrity...lick it once and you suck forever!
  19. #39  
    What/where is "Munks Forum"??
  20. #40  
    Why don't you PM munk?
    Just call me Berd.
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Posting Permissions