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  1. s219's Avatar
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    #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by Huff View Post
    Apple IMHO is cutting its own throat. If they allow ITunes to work with the Pre then they gain the sales from ITunes. I really do not think a large % of Pre buyers did so because of its ability to sync with ITunes. So the argument of lost IPhone sales because of Pre's sync abilities is moot.

    One can always just copy the songs over to the Pre. I suppose sync'ing appeals to some but no big deal. Certainly not enough to buy an IPhone over a Pre. Apples loses ITune sales is about all Apples blocking will do.
    It's well known that Apple doesn't make a lot of money off music sales, in fact at times it's been a loss. But they use iTunes and music to drive device sales -- iPods and iPhones -- and that's where they make their money. You have to think of iTunes as a vehicle that sells iPods and iPhones, not as a money-making music-sale venture for Apple. Same goes for apps, movies, TV shows, etc.

    So when Palm comes along and pulls this stunt, they are taking away a competitive advantage that is Apple's, to drive sales of their Palm device instead of Apple's. At that point there is no benefit to Apple at all -- what little they lose in possible music sales is puny compared to the profit they would have made on the hardware. They consider iTunes to be a competitive advantage, and I agree with that.
  2. Xyg
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       #162  
    Unfortunately, discussion on this topic in this forum quickly devolves into "Palm is dumb hurr y they so lazyZ?!?!/why is Jon Rubenstien a dum dum/PALM IS LEECKHING" and other similarly useless tangents.

    I was looking around on the iPhone blog (a precentral sister site) about the topic, and found the discourse to be surprisingly more intelligent and level headed: Actual debate about the technical merits of Palm's decision and the actual differences in reading the XML databases using third party software versus having iTunes doing the work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff in TiPb comments section

    “They don’t let any non-Apple devices sync. RIM and Nokia sync via iTunes XML library file. Palm could easily do the same.”

    There would be a lot more support issues using that method (installing, etc) over letting iTunes drop the files onto the devices and then reading the DB files.

    Ya have to admit, the Pre method is a very clean way of doing it. The user doesn’t have to install anything. The DB files on older iPod are unlikely to change. Letting iTunes copy the files presents a very stable platform for the Pre to read in the DB files.

    If you think about it, quite a few programs read DB files on the iPod. If you have any program that imports music from your iPod into iTunes, you are doing the same thing Palm is doing. If you are using any program other than iTunes to manage music on your iPod, you are doing the same thing Palm is doing. The big difference, of course, is that the Pre pretends to be an iPod long enough for it to get the music files copied over.
    This method yields a cleaner way of reading the XML files.

    With this in mind, here's my query: is spoofing the USB vendor ID analogous to modifying the webOS web browser to report itself as mobile safari to web servers? In both cases, there's no actual "hacking" going on as far as the server/iTunes code is concerned.
  3. #163  
    i want to sync with songbird
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    With this in mind, here's my query: is spoofing the USB vendor ID analogous to modifying the webOS web browser to report itself as mobile safari to web servers? In both cases, there's no actual "hacking" going on as far as the server/iTunes code is concerned.
    You are spot on. Spoofing the USB vendor ID involves no "hacking" at all. The Pre merely impersonates a different device, and in no way interferes or modifies the functionality of the iTunes software.

    As long as Palm continues to invest little effort in countering Apple's countermeasures, they're getting large benefit at little risk. I'll leave the moralizing up to others.
  5. s219's Avatar
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    #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    With this in mind, here's my query: is spoofing the USB vendor ID analogous to modifying the webOS web browser to report itself as mobile safari to web servers? In both cases, there's no actual "hacking" going on as far as the server/iTunes code is concerned.

    Two totally different things. I wouldn't even spend time analyzing the similarities or differences.
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by fid View Post
    I've been following this on the sidelines now for quite some time and simply wanted to throw a couple of points in. It was the 'spoofing' of the USB-ID that helped turned me AWAY from the Pre. (Wish I could provide link of what it was like at the time, but post count is too low)


    - Palm could have licensed iTune access like RIM does with with their devices or simply used the xml export file. When I first read this, I realized that ONLY Pre owners would be hurt.

    - Additionally, I couldn't understand why a company that had a stable, mature desktop sync product of their own (for years) didn't provide it for the Pre. The Palm Desktop synced everything well and could have been easily altered to interface with the iTunes xml file.

    'Couldn't understand' was entirely correct. I knew what was going on. This product became more about cutting corners and it was becoming painfully clear.
    Are you serious?
  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    It's well known that Apple doesn't make a lot of money off music sales, in fact at times it's been a loss.
    maybe when they first started. they make a good chunk of money now (estimates for 2007 were $570M- i couldn't find more recent numbers).
  8. fid
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    #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrHeathenScum View Post
    Are you serious?
    As a heart attack.

    Not meaning to hijack thread but my wife and I just finished our contract with Sprint as the Pre was released. Our previous phones were Treo 755p's. Treo's had stagnated through the years but I had a pretty investment in software that was nice carrying forward. Here were the things that I/we needed:

    - As good or better integration with contacts, calendars etc.

    - Phone software that was stable. Even the 755p's would act up more than I liked and I tired from playing tech support for the wife years ago.

    - Better email than the package I'd purchased for the Treo's. Chattermail was abandoned shortly after Palm purchased it. $60 Down the drain for software that started rebooting the treo when trying to access gmail.

    - Browser that was usable.

    - Way for wife to purchase software/media content (maintain phone) without me being involved. I knew what 'spoofing' would lead to. 'Honey' how come I can't ____ anymore?

    (and a couple of others, but you get the point).

    No one wants Palm to do better than me. As others have stated - 'competition benefits the end users'.

    But competition against Apple ALONE will not win. Excellent (maybe even perfect) execution of a platform/release will be needed to compete with Apple.

    Since I'm on top of this box, I might as well state that I believe Palm is making a 'HUGE' mistake with Pixie as well. In my opionion, Pixie should be a better Pre than the Pre. Learn from your mistakes and correct your problems quickly but above all - Don't strip features, add them.

    Yes, I understand Pre owners may get upset, but this is for the survival of the company. Palm can always reward early adopters another way. Right now, the reward is (roll the dice ... wait for it) what kind of build quality replacement unit do I get when this phone breaks.

    Apple hasn't needed to go 'backwards' with any phone model so far. The lack of mechanical movements have contributed to the build quality of the iPhone. No keyboard. Software drives language keyboard, 3 mechanical switches, etc. The Pixie should eliminate one huge source of problem reports.

    Palm can't win by discounting their flagship phone 50% only 3 months after it is released. Followup with 'here comes Centro' all over again.

    If you can't knock Apple off it's perch, then go for RIM. With work, the Pixie could at least be a better 'berry than the Tours, Bolds, Curves, etc. RIM's app store is no better than Palms. So far, the Pre's roll-out has reminded me of one RIM - the Storm (though Palm has provided better support).

    To the Op (and others) - sorry for the Diatribe.
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
    maybe when they first started. they make a good chunk of money now (estimates for 2007 were $570M- i couldn't find more recent numbers).
    I think that was the case in the beginning but now not and even a headache dealing with the industry. The music industry is hurting too... Did you hear that they wanted to suggest charging Apple for people playing the 30 second previews when on iTunes?! You think Apple really wants to deal with them anymore?

    But Apps will be the big money maker for Apple... straight 30% without much sweat and people buying/downloading like crazy.
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    #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    I disagree with you and agree with Palm on the fundamental outlook that folks should have freedom and choice in how and where they use the non-rights managed media they already own.
    People should have freedom and choice. So why would they even use such an exclusive itunes or apple anything to start with. There are so many programs that play well together. I donlt understand the whole thing.
  11. #171  
    Apple tells you...."In order to use ITunes, you must have one of the Apple media products ONLY!" Now just remember, you just downloaded a non DRM song that You bought and Apple tells you that you have to buy ONLY their products to listen to YOUR music that YOU bought!.....I don't like someone else telling how I can listen to MY music.
    GIVE DEBBIE THE CHIMP.....GIVE DEBBIE THE CHIMP!!!
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    I think that was the case in the beginning but now not...
    other way around.

    ...You think Apple really wants to deal with them anymore?
    for a billion dollar business? you bet they do.

    But Apps will be the big money maker for Apple... straight 30% without much sweat and people buying/downloading like crazy.
    apple takes 30% of music sales too. sure, they have to have lawyers to negotiate contracts, etc, but once signed up, there's not much difference between the app store and the music store.
  13. #173  
    I'm not wearing any pants!
  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by IGoDwnTwn34 View Post
    Apple tells you...."In order to use ITunes, you must have one of the Apple media products ONLY!" Now just remember, you just downloaded a non DRM song that You bought and Apple tells you that you have to buy ONLY their products to listen to YOUR music that YOU bought!.....I don't like someone else telling how I can listen to MY music.
    None of my iTunes music is purchased from Apple. It is either ripped CDs or Amazon (non-DRM) music. I sync my music to a Blackberry and a WM device using free, seamless software (Doubletwist). Your argument is a red herring.

    Oh, and Palm is both lazy & incompetent (for not making their own front end sync software) and arrogant (for essentially stealing from Apple's efforts, then whining about it). Lazy+Incompetent + Arrogant = Doomed.
  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    None of my iTunes music is purchased from Apple. It is either ripped CDs or Amazon (non-DRM) music. I sync my music to a Blackberry and a WM device using free, seamless software (Doubletwist). Your argument is a red herring.

    Oh, and Palm is both lazy & incompetent (for not making their own front end sync software) and arrogant (for essentially stealing from Apple's efforts, then whining about it). Lazy+Incompetent + Arrogant = Doomed.
    None of my music is purchased...period, especially through Itunes. I won't give crapple one red cent of my money. I don't like thier socialistic ways of what you can or can't do with either your software or hardware that YOU purchased with your hard earned money.

    I believe once you buy something...it's yours, not theirs and you can do with your product as you see fit. So music purchased through Itunes should be able to be ported to ANY device you own that supports music.

    Palm is NOT stealing from crapple, what are they stealing? Apple's efforts are soley proprietary and what you purchase should not be locked down by a socialistic monopolizing company. They are just making it so you can play the music YOU purchase from Itunes on another device with ease. Crapple here is the ones greedy and arrogant by locking you in to use ONLY their products.
  16. fid
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    #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    None of my iTunes music is purchased from Apple. It is either ripped CDs or Amazon (non-DRM) music. I sync my music to a Blackberry and a WM device using free, seamless software (Doubletwist). Your argument is a red herring.

    Oh, and Palm is both lazy & incompetent (for not making their own front end sync software) and arrogant (for essentially stealing from Apple's efforts, then whining about it). Lazy+Incompetent + Arrogant = Doomed.
    Agreed. We've used iTunes FAR longer than we've owned any apple hardware. Most of our music (> 250 Gigs of family music) was ripped from CD's over years. Most movies were ripped from our DVD's. iTunes became a good library manager years ago. Since it is continually advanced (as opposed to the other majors), I expect it only to get better. I've yet to find a better manager for larger libraries.
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gator352 View Post
    None of my music is purchased...period, especially through Itunes. I won't give crapple one red cent of my money. I don't like thier socialistic ways of what you can or can't do with either your software or hardware that YOU purchased with your hard earned money.

    I believe once you buy something...it's yours, not theirs and you can do with your product as you see fit. So music purchased through Itunes should be able to be ported to ANY device you own that supports music.

    Palm is NOT stealing from crapple, what are they stealing? Apple's efforts are soley proprietary and what you purchase should not be locked down by a socialistic monopolizing company. They are just making it so you can play the music YOU purchase from Itunes on another device with ease. Crapple here is the ones greedy and arrogant by locking you in to use ONLY their products.
    You are going to be booed for that one.. Lol. I'm with ya though. I could care less about itunes or purchasing music from itunes.. i'm one of the (few) who gets my music non-DRM by other means.. guess i'm just lazy and don't feel like feeding money to a greedy corporation.. and people call Microsoft bad. Oh, this just in.. news flash.. itunes incompatible with Windows 7... wouldn't THAT be funny!
  18. cgk
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    #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gator352 View Post
    None of my music is purchased...period, especially through Itunes. I won't give crapple one red cent of my money. I don't like thier socialistic ways of what you can or can't do with either your software or hardware that YOU purchased with your hard earned money.

    I believe once you buy something...it's yours, not theirs and you can do with your product as you see fit. So music purchased through Itunes should be able to be ported to ANY device you own that supports music.

    Palm is NOT stealing from crapple, what are they stealing? Apple's efforts are soley proprietary and what you purchase should not be locked down by a socialistic monopolizing company. They are just making it so you can play the music YOU purchase from Itunes on another device with ease. Crapple here is the ones greedy and arrogant by locking you in to use ONLY their products.

    So they are socialist capitalists - got ya.
  19. s219's Avatar
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    #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by IGoDwnTwn34 View Post
    Apple tells you...."In order to use ITunes, you must have one of the Apple media products ONLY!" Now just remember, you just downloaded a non DRM song that You bought and Apple tells you that you have to buy ONLY their products to listen to YOUR music that YOU bought!.....I don't like someone else telling how I can listen to MY music.
    That is incorrect. If you buy DRM-free music, you can listen to it anywhere. You do not have to use the iTunes app or an Apple device.

    Nobody is telling you how to use your music, but I think the loud voices in your head might be giving you some bad information.
  20. s219's Avatar
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    #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gator352 View Post
    I believe once you buy something...it's yours, not theirs and you can do with your product as you see fit. So music purchased through Itunes should be able to be ported to ANY device you own that supports music.

    Palm is NOT stealing from crapple, what are they stealing? Apple's efforts are soley proprietary and what you purchase should not be locked down by a socialistic monopolizing company. They are just making it so you can play the music YOU purchase from Itunes on another device with ease. Crapple here is the ones greedy and arrogant by locking you in to use ONLY their products.

    Once again, totally incorrect information. When you buy DRM-free music from Apple, you can play it on any device. You do not need to use Apple's iTunes software or an Apple device.

    If you want to blame someone for not making it easy to play your media on their device, I think you need to direct your frustration at Palm, not Apple. In fact, now that I think about it, I think it's ridiculous that this even needs explanation.

    If you don't like Apple, fine, I can understand your position. But you're losing credibility and respect by spouting incorrect information and then ranting about it.

    Like people here keep repeating, drag and drop your DRM-free music onto the Pre if you need proof that it will work in a fashion that is 100% Apple free.
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