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  1. wicketr's Avatar
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    #81  
    I'm not sure why Palm is so insistent on using iTunes that they will delay OS upgrades because there might be a chance that it would be broken. Instead of spending the money to play this cat/mouse game, spend it on developing a good seamless interface with Songbird.

    And I'm not sure why Apple would want to block the Pre and other devices because they make alot of money with their software, and one would think they would want to make more money....granted Steve Jobs loves his closed system
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by bipoler View Post
    I'm, sorry this is becoming subpar. who argues over this..all this time if Palm wants us "sync" why not create there own software..draging and dropping is fine with me I dont use my phone as my main .mp3 play anyways, just like I dont use my Pre to complete homework instead of my computer....Phone companies need to quit competing with "apple/iphone" and trying to MATCH them instead they need to SURPASS them become innovative stop giving so much credit to this iphone its getting old not everyone likes it or wants it or they would have it .
    ITunes has such a huge market share at this point that this is unfeasible. Say Palm makes their own media sync program, people will not want to switch from what they're currently using, and it won't work with the iTunes store. This isn't about matching Apple, this is about getting people who use iTunes to purchase a Pre instead of an iPhone.
  3. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by rlanza1054 View Post
    Can't Palm get over this.

    Isn't it better in the long run to have the Pre report to the USB port that it is a Palm Pre and not an imposter.

    That way developers can use that information to do some stuff (built some specialized apps) with the Pre being connected to a computer.

    Isn't that a better option for Palm, than playing this childish game.

    Rob

    PS I wonder how much time was being wasted trying to get around Apple's iTunes that could have gone into fixing the existing problems in the WebOS and maybe even building one of their own music/etc transfer programs?
    My guess for this...

    Go look at the total number of sales of Ipods, Ipod Touches, and iPhones.

    That is an entire base of people whose been bread to understand that their music, hell their media, comes and goes through iTunes.

    That's not even mentioning just looking at the total number of itunes downloads.

    Apple, through its store and through the proliferation of iPods, has created a large amount of the computer media going population that uses and is attached to iTunes.

    The ability to be able to tell these people "If you come to our phone that doesn't change. You can still plug right into itunes, still take your music and video right from it, still function just like you always have" is a HUGE bonus as it immedietely removes an advantage that the competition has.
  4. #84  
    I really don't get this back-and-forth game that Apple and Palm are playing. Granted, I don't use iTunes regularly so that may be the reason I don't understand. Palm has shown that they can crack iTunes while also showing that Apple wants to lock iTunes down nice and tight. Palm could use that to their advantage.

    From what I hear, iTunes is bloated and inefficient...especially on a PC. (I've tried it and am not impressed. Media Monkey does a better job, IMO.) If that's truly the case, Palm would be better off to stop conceding iTunes supremacy and point people to a better piece of software.

    I realize a lot of people use iTunes, but how many use it because it's "Apple?" Perhaps Palm should partner with someone like Media Monkey or Winamp and show how those programs are superior to iTunes. Don't just try to fool iTunes (and Apple), show people that it's unnecessary.
  5. larnapp's Avatar
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    #85  
    Official Vent Post:

    It seems that the natural assumption is that 1.2 was postponed due to iTunes sync. If that's the case, Palm is focusing waaaaay too much energy on one thing that already has several other far superior, affordable solutions available, and focusing far too little energy on the things that only they can do like ____________(fill in the blank with your own "stupid-obvious" feature Palm Pres should be doing), I'll start:

    -Speeding up the calendar and adding searchability to it
    -Giving us a syncable Memo solution that has fewer bugs than Evernote and doesn't cost $45 a year to boot
    -Adding video capability, if for no other reason than to make people like me shut up
    -Giving users broad control over all system alarms, sounds, repeats, etc.

    See, venting and getting these things off our chest can help us all feel so much better. And forum thread therapy is free...
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by semprini View Post
    I realize a lot of people use iTunes, but how many use it because it's "Apple?" Perhaps Palm should partner with someone like Media Monkey or Winamp and show how those programs are superior to iTunes. Don't just try to fool iTunes (and Apple), show people that it's unnecessary.
    You just answered your own question. How many people would avoid using whatever program Palm makes because it's not "Apple"? The alternatives are already out there (for a music player in general) and were there long before iTunes, but when iPod craze hit and that was all you could use it didn't make a difference.
  7. xorg's Avatar
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    #87  
    I just want a phone that I can casually pickup without accidentally sending the caller to voice mail. The other fixes/features will be great but Palm needs to focus on the phone app first, other features next and iTune last.

    There are better alternatives to iTunes, so hopefully Palm is not holding out for that.

    There are quite a few enhancements in the next release, so it's acceptable that it takes more time to test and work the kinks out.
  8. #88  
    if you guys take a look at the poll I started, its seems that about 33% of Pre users DO use itunes to sync their music.

    Thats a lot higher than I would have thought, but the fact remains....

    Why does Palm "waste" so much time making sure iTunes sync works? Because if they didn't it would **** off a third of its customer base...
  9. jeffgus's Avatar
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    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by larnapp View Post
    Official Vent Post:

    It seems that the natural assumption is that 1.2 was postponed due to iTunes sync. If that's the case, Palm is focusing waaaaay too much energy on one thing that already has several other far superior, affordable solutions available,
    It doesn't really take much work for Palm. The "sync" is done. The Pre already knows how to read iPod file formats. The fix for the last iTunes breakage was a single line changing an USB ID. This time? They might have to have a valid serial number in the device XML file instead of X's. They might have to dump any reference to Palm on the USB bus. Simple things to fix. The amount of work is nothing compared to having to write a desktop sync app or license a 3rd party one and have to support it.
  10. Duo
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    #90  
    If and I say again *IF* Palm delayed v1.2 just to fix iTunes syncing then they really do deserve to fail because they are foolishly wasting time and resources on a minor feature which they should never have implemented in first place, rather than prioritising fixing the holes in WebOS. When you have limited resources you should expend them on the things that matter most.

    I don't believe that using iTunes to sync their media is a particularly important feature for most Pre users, especially when the device only has ~7GB of non-expandable memory available. Palm should have just used the established means of syncing with iTunes, which is to create your own application and give it the ability to parse the iTunes XML library file.

    It's simple, it puts things pretty much under your control and it doesn't require you to expend resources to spoof Apple devices every time they update iTunes. It also leaves your users with a working application (with it's own media library) if anything happens to iTunes letting you fix any issues that may arise from a major upgrade by Apple at your leisure.

    Palm also need to stop trying to tweak Apple's tail and hoe their own row. What was the point of announcing the Pixi on a day when it was guaranteed to be buried under an avalanche of Apple coverage? Stupid!!

    Palm have created a great OS that still needs quite a bit of work. They should be concentrating on improving it, resolving their hardware issues, getting the device into as many markets as possible and expanding the range of devices running WebOS instead of wasting so much as a single developer day playing cat and mouse with Apple. I'd like to see a phone with a much larger screen, 3.6" or so and also a thin MID style device that has a 6.25" or more likely a 7" 1024 pixel wide display, also running WebOS.

    More information on the Library.xml file from the Apple support website.:

    What are the iTunes library files?

    "iTunes Music Library.xml
    This file contains some (but not all) of the same information stored in the iTunes Library file. The purpose of the iTunes Music Library.xml file is to make your music and playlists available to other applications on your computer. In Mac OS X other iLife applications (like iPhoto, iDVD, and iMovie) use this file to make it easier for you to add music from your iTunes library to your projects."
  11. Tamerz's Avatar
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    #91  
    I think it is an interesting fight. Palm claims that it is against the USB standard to block specific vendors. While the feature doesn't matter to me, the outcome of this could end up applying to a lot of other situations in the future. I'd like to see Palm come out ahead in this battle.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffgus View Post
    It doesn't really take much work for Palm. The "sync" is done. The Pre already knows how to read iPod file formats. The fix for the last iTunes breakage was a single line changing an USB ID. This time? They might have to have a valid serial number in the device XML file instead of X's. They might have to dump any reference to Palm on the USB bus. Simple things to fix. The amount of work is nothing compared to having to write a desktop sync app or license a 3rd party one and have to support it.
    You are absolutely right, however, the changes required, per your suggestions, and among others, may actually then break sync for the other solutions referenced here as well! Especially if references to "Palm Pre" are removed from the USB communication, etc... I hope they are smart and add an option to differentiate and explicitly call out these various methods so that a change in one doesn't break another....

    L
    Lee Ladisky
  13. Duo
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    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugefunk84 View Post
    if you guys take a look at the poll I started, its seems that about 33% of Pre users DO use itunes to sync their music.

    Thats a lot higher than I would have thought, but the fact remains....

    Why does Palm "waste" so much time making sure iTunes sync works? Because if they didn't it would **** off a third of its customer base...
    I doubt that it would. People use it because it's there. If direct syncing of the Pre with the iTunes program had never been built and instead Palm had created an application with it's own media library that could also read and sync with the iTunes library via the established means of the Library.xml file then people would use that instead and this would be a non-issue.

    By going down the iTunes route they have just made a rod for their own back.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post
    If and I say again *IF* Palm delayed v1.2 just to fix iTunes syncing then they really do deserve to fail because they are foolishly wasting time and resources on a minor feature which they should never have implemented in first place, rather than prioritising fixing the holes in WebOS. When you have limited resources you should expend them on the things that matter most.

    I don't believe that using iTunes to sync their media is a particularly important feature for most Pre users, especially when the device only has ~7GB of non-expandable memory available. Palm should have just used the established means of syncing with iTunes, which is to create your own application and give it the ability to parse the iTunes XML library file.

    It's simple, it puts things pretty much under your control and it doesn't require you to expend resources to spoof Apple devices every time they update iTunes. It also leaves your users with a working application (with it's own media library) if anything happens to iTunes letting you fix any issues that may arise from a major upgrade by Apple at your leisure.

    Palm also need to stop trying to tweak Apple's tail and hoe their own row. What was the point of announcing the Pixi on a day when it was guaranteed to be buried under an avalanche of Apple coverage? Stupid!!

    Palm have created a great OS that still needs quite a bit of work. They should be concentrating on improving it, resolving their hardware issues, getting the device into as many markets as possible and expanding the range of devices running WebOS instead of wasting so much as a single developer day playing cat and mouse with Apple. I'd like to see a phone with a much larger screen, 3.6" or so and also a thin MID style device that has a 6.25" or more likely a 7" 1024 pixel wide display, also running WebOS.

    More information on the Library.xml file from the Apple support website.:

    What are the iTunes library files?

    "iTunes Music Library.xml
    This file contains some (but not all) of the same information stored in the iTunes Library file. The purpose of the iTunes Music Library.xml file is to make your music and playlists available to other applications on your computer. In Mac OS X other iLife applications (like iPhoto, iDVD, and iMovie) use this file to make it easier for you to add music from your iTunes library to your projects."


    While I agree that it is soemthign that never shoudl have been touted as a major feature, the fact is that Itunes sync helped bring a lot of people over to the Pre, people who would have never considered it unless it WAS capable of syncing.

    Now that it's done, they almost HAVE to keep pace and make sure the sync stays active. How would you like to buy a car with a NAV system, only to find that the NAV system doesnt work 3 months later because ~66% of the other customers who bought the car didnt use it or care for it?

    That still leaves ~33% of customers who DO need this feature, and whether you like it or not, I think the iTunes sync is here to stay...

    Edit: Regarding your above post, I think you overestimate peoples computer-savvy-ness (excuse the wording). I dont fall into this category, but a lot of people I know would rather just do whats easy and familiar to them. Most people wouldn't WANT to learn a new way to sync their media, even if it turned out to be easier once they knew how. Can't teach an old dog new tricks, as they say.
  15. Duo
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    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugefunk84 View Post
    While I agree that it is soemthign that never shoudl have been touted as a major feature, the fact is that Itunes sync helped bring a lot of people over to the Pre, people who would have never considered it unless it WAS capable of syncing.

    Now that it's done, they almost HAVE to keep pace and make sure the sync stays active. How would you like to buy a car with a NAV system, only to find that the NAV system doesnt work 3 months later because ~66% of the other customers who bought the car didnt use it or care for it?

    That still leaves ~33% of customers who DO need this feature, and whether you like it or not, I think the iTunes sync is here to stay...
    Perhaps but as I said above, they have just made a rod for their own back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugefunk84 View Post
    Edit: Regarding your above post, I think you overestimate peoples computer-savvy-ness (excuse the wording). I dont fall into this category, but a lot of people I know would rather just do whats easy and familiar to them. Most people wouldn't WANT to learn a new way to sync their media, even if it turned out to be easier once they knew how. Can't teach an old dog new tricks, as they say.
    LOL
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post
    Perhaps but as I said above, they have just made a rod for their own back.
    I dont disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post

    LOL
    ?
  17. Mpre's Avatar
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    #97  
    I agree no one is buying the Pre just because it sync to itunes but its nice to know that it can do that.

    Go team Palm!
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Apple wins this either way. Who wants to buy a Pre or a Pixi to sync to iTunes if you never know when that sync will be broken? Even if Palm keeps this ridiculous game up and keeps iTunes working for the most part, novice WebOS users will always have the "iTunes Store" tab on every iTunes screen to show them what they are missing, especially in the App Store.
    My question is why would people penalize Palm (by not buying a Pre) when Apple is the one blocking the sync? Users would be better using another program to manage their music...one that won't be constantly sending updates to block other media devices. Palm needs to stop people from thinking "The Pre can't sync to iTunes!!" and show them "Apple keeps blocking the Pre from syncing." There are other options out there. Media Monkey will sync to iPod AND the Pre.
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post

    Palm also need to stop trying to tweak Apple's tail and hoe their own row. What was the point of announcing the Pixi on a day when it was guaranteed to be buried under an avalanche of Apple coverage? Stupid!!
    I am going to disagree with you here. Announcing the Pixi the day before Apple was very smart in my opinion. There is no way that the Pixi would over-shadow Apple's day of iPod fun. However, by announcing it just before, it keeps it fresh in people's minds, and just like with the iPhone 3GS, people instinctively compared it to the Pre. In a sense it is using the media machine that is Apple to do free advertising for you.

    Also, all in all, the announcements that Apple made today were pretty underwhelming to me. I really don't care if my mp3 player can take photos and make movies. I mean, when I am listening to music from a portable mp3 player, I am generally not hanging with people. Maybe it is me, but I didn't used to carry my ipod nano around with me everywhere I went. So in this case, the Pixi might actually do some over-shadowing.

    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Apple wins this either way. Who wants to buy a Pre or a Pixi to sync to iTunes if you never know when that sync will be broken? Even if Palm keeps this ridiculous game up and keeps iTunes working for the most part, novice WebOS users will always have the "iTunes Store" tab on every iTunes screen to show them what they are missing, especially in the App Store.
    Pre and Pixi customers who use iTunes, might be teens or college students who are still tied to their family's cell phones who might not have access to AT&T and the iPhone. If 1.2 is released today or tomorrow to allow syncing again, then I think Apple loses, because their efforts to fend off Palm has failed.
  20. Duo
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    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Apple wins this either way. Who wants to buy a Pre or a Pixi to sync to iTunes if you never know when that sync will be broken? Even if Palm keeps this ridiculous game up and keeps iTunes working for the most part, novice WebOS users will always have the "iTunes Store" tab on every iTunes screen to show them what they are missing, especially in the App Store.
    Thanks, I didn't even know you could see the App Store that way - I hardly ever use iTunes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugefunk84 View Post


    ?
    Just laughing out loud at the Old Dogs, New Tricks saying.

    LOL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by Duo; 09/09/2009 at 04:30 PM.
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