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  1. #41  
    Fair enough Parsons. I'm not hatin on the Pre, I cant wait to get it, flaws and all. But, if people follow Doug and others' advice which is, essentially, don't buy the Pre if you're going to complain or question, doesn't that chill developer interest if not directly harm Palm sales? Of course it does. My only point is that this Love it or Leave it position is harmful to Palm and when coupled with insults to the poster, it ALWAYS kills the thread. Search memory, sd card and hot sync threads as exhibit A for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I certainly wasn't one of those. I hope Palm supports any effort at filling a need (or desire) for people to use the device. It makes sense for Palm to do that. They can concentrate on building devices, and let others concentrate (at no charge to them) on making the device more useful.
    Last edited by eekinsman; 05/05/2009 at 11:32 AM. Reason: took out item that *some* may consider baiting
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
  2. #42  
    I think people just have strong opinons about anything.

    For instance, go to say...Macrumors.com and go to the forum. I dare you to make an argument against an Apple product there.

    People love products and companies and many hate negative comments about them. Honestly, when the Pre was first announced it sounded like everyone only wanted classic app support and Palm Desktop support.


    Like, when is it time to move forward?
  3. #43  
    Yeah all thats probably true. Plus, we're all just waitin for the Pre with only little tiny blurbs of new info. It all becomes somewhat combustible. Well, Doug here's to a soon and successful Pre Launch

    Quote Originally Posted by DougB541 View Post
    I think people just have strong opinons about anything.

    For instance, go to say...Macrumors.com and go to the forum. I dare you to make an argument against an Apple product there.

    People love products and companies and many hate negative comments about them. Honestly, when the Pre was first announced it sounded like everyone only wanted classic app support and Palm Desktop support.


    Like, when is it time to move forward?
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
  4. #44  
    Definitely not hating on the Pre. I am getting one after all. Just think it's a dumb move to force people into cloud computing. People that use Palm Desktop have simple needs. It's still the only solution that takes care of everything...contacts, calendar, tasks, memos and even media. Then you have people that use Outlook. Some live on Outlook and they find out the only way they can sync is if they use Exchange. Sorry, but that's BS. Since the inception of Palm it's been a one stop shop, soup to nuts for having all your info on your PC synced up with your Palm. For many it was a big reason to buy a Palm over other options. People that just started with the Treo line just don't know. So to just abandon it cold turkey is a dumb move in my eyes, and it's an opinion that is shared by others as well. Of course there's both camps. But to say a device isn't for them because Palm abandoned the way they've done things since their inception and are forcing people to change just doesn't make sense to me. I'm all for change and trying something new. Just don't think this was the area to do it.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  5. #45  
    I think one of the things that some folks are ignoring is that Palm and Sprint are not in business to be "fair". They are in a business to make a profit, and a return to their investors.

    I'm disappointed, for example, that there is no memory card slot. I have a variety of different memory cards for my various Palm OS devices (including some CF cards for my old Handera device). I thought expandable memory was a good idea when I bought the Handrea years ago, and I think it's still a good idea.

    Do I think it's "stupid" that Palm didn't include it?

    I don't know, maybe it was smart. Maybe someone at Palm said "Look at that Herb Parsons guy. He'll buy the Pre, and 6 months later when we come out with the Pre II with 16gb memory and a micro SD slot, he'll give the Pre to his wife, and buy the Pre II. When we come out with the Pixie 3 months after that, his wife will give the Pre to one of their daughters, and and they'll buy that. We've watched this guy, he's done it before, he'll do it again..."

    Is that fair?? Guess it depends on how you define "fair". Is it taking advantage of me? Probably to a degree. Is it good business? In my case absolutely without a doubt. I don't regret the purchase I made in the past, and I don't expect I'll regret this purchase, no matter what comes down the road. Is it a good decision generally speaking? I don't know, guess we'll all see. I suspect though, that it would be.

    Now, I don't even know if that's the type of decision making process they went through. I'm only throwing it up there as an example. So many people are second guessing the folks at Palm and Sprint, and the truth is, those companies have survived in a very competive business. And while they may still ultimately fail, they make decisions based on things that most of us simply don't have a clue on.

    I'm perfectly willing to watch what they do, make a choice based on what I see, and then accept my choice.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I think one of the things that some folks are ignoring is that Palm and Sprint are not in business to be "fair". They are in a business to make a profit, and a return to their investors.
    Something neither company has been doing much lately.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Something neither company has been doing much lately.
    Exactly and they're attempting to turn that around. You don't turn that around by saying "Oh, OK, the folks that are paying the least amount for their plans are unhappy that they may have to pay more. Let's keep them happy. Since we need to make more money, let's just charge the folks that have always paid more even more to make up the difference."
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by eekinsman View Post
    Yeah all thats probably true. Plus, we're all just waitin for the Pre with only little tiny blurbs of new info. It all becomes somewhat combustible. Well, Doug here's to a soon and successful Pre Launch
    Cheers!

    Quote Originally Posted by crogs571 View Post
    Definitely not hating on the Pre. I am getting one after all. Just think it's a dumb move to force people into cloud computing. People that use Palm Desktop have simple needs. It's still the only solution that takes care of everything...contacts, calendar, tasks, memos and even media. Then you have people that use Outlook. Some live on Outlook and they find out the only way they can sync is if they use Exchange. Sorry, but that's BS. Since the inception of Palm it's been a one stop shop, soup to nuts for having all your info on your PC synced up with your Palm. For many it was a big reason to buy a Palm over other options. People that just started with the Treo line just don't know. So to just abandon it cold turkey is a dumb move in my eyes, and it's an opinion that is shared by others as well. Of course there's both camps. But to say a device isn't for them because Palm abandoned the way they've done things since their inception and are forcing people to change just doesn't make sense to me. I'm all for change and trying something new. Just don't think this was the area to do it.
    I understand where you are coming from. My first Palm was the Palm V...granted I was in HS when I was using it but had a few things I would hotsyc with my computer.

    I then got a Sony Clie (the model escapes me). And i eventually ended up with a 755p....still hot syncing.

    When I picked up my BB Curve I was finding any way to transfer my Palm contacts to BB desktop (which I did) cause I did like easily syncing. Well, fastfoward a year, and as I said, I now use Google Contacts/Calender as my main sync. For me personally, the benefits outweigh the negatives (I could be singing another tune if Google loses all my data haha) but the fact I can update my calender from my work, home, friends computer and just wireless update my phone is far more useful than to have to desktop sync to me.

    But hopefully a thrid party makes a desktop applications as I can understand wanting one still.

    Good luck.
  9. #49  
    I think the Henry Ford quote hits it right on the head. At some point new technology takes the lead and old paradigms, like hot syncing are sidelined. This is not to say everyone will be happy with the new definition of progress, to extend the Ford analogy, for some the faster horse may be precisely what they want and need. This doesn't mean, however, that every company needs to offer that faster horse in addition to the car.

    Palm has provided means of synchronizing the device over the air and the "usb drive" functionality. Who knows, they may even include a hot-sync like desktop solution. To an extent, keeping hot sync is a crutch, eventually it will no longer be supported whether now or later. Same thing with classic, eventually it will no longer be necessary (as long as the developers kick it into gear).

    My point is, Palm is trying to move forward and in so doing needs to rethink things from the past. Hot sync made a lot of sense before WiFi and high speed cellphone data plans because it was the only real way to move the data quickly. Now there are alternatives that can do the process seamlessly, without the need for wires or the necessary lag between events and data changes and syncing. Is this for everyone? Probably not, everyone has different tastes and attitudes. Palm will try and capture the vast majority of people and I am sure third parties will more than make up for whatever weaknesses people see in the system.

    If Palm were to try and design something that included what everyone wants the device would appeal to nobody because it would be sluggish from software bloat, oversized from hardware bloat, and the thousands of customizations and options everyone clamors for would be more painful than useful to 99% of users. So Palm makes a device for the vast majority and the masses can find ways to make it their own, developers can make customizations easier (you download the customization you want), and that covers the vast majority of all cases. Some people will never be satisfied with the device, as is their prerogative, but Palm covers the largest portion of the market it can reasonably do.

    We will all get our chances to see what it looks like when it releases and decide if it is for us, and if not maybe patience will make it more to our individual needs and wants. If it doesn't pan out soon enough there is choice in the smart phone space and maybe another device will come along more to your liking.

    The situation for Palm is similar to Apple when they shucked legacy support from OSX (the classic mode there being almost a perfect analogy to classic on webOS, a sandboxed environment essentually a virtual machine), they pissed off some customers in the short run, but in the long run gained many more. We will see what happens, hopefully they have a solution for desktop syncing that is to the liking of those who want it at launch, but who knows. Everyone's needs are different, let's see what they ultimately do.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by DougB541 View Post
    When I picked up my BB Curve I was finding any way to transfer my Palm contacts to BB desktop (which I did) cause I did like easily syncing. Well, fastfoward a year, and as I said, I now use Google Contacts/Calender as my main sync.
    That's great if all you want to sync is your Calendar and Contacts, what about tasks and memos. I also sync eWallet & Pocket Quicken.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Exactly and they're attempting to turn that around. You don't turn that around by saying "Oh, OK, the folks that are paying the least amount for their plans are unhappy that they may have to pay more. Let's keep them happy. Since we need to make more money, let's just charge the folks that have always paid more even more to make up the difference."
    I agree with you that killing off SERO is a good idea for Sprint as is launching the Pre.

    OTOH Palm betting the company on a new smartphone that doesn't do basic stuff that all other smartphones on the market can do and is available on only one other carrier is a risky strategy. Particularly when you have pretty much killed off your old platforms. PalmOS is pretty much dead at this point (check out treocentral) and WM Treos are down to one model largely engineered by another company and only carried as a subsidized device by Sprint (though available as an unlocked GSM device).
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    ...
    OTOH Palm betting the company on a new smartphone that doesn't do basic stuff that all other smartphones on the market can do and is available on only one other carrier is a risky strategy
    ...
    I think you're still a little hung up on the desktop sync. At this point, there's not much to synch with (no Palm desktop program, no apps yet that store information on the desktop and the Pre). Personally, I think that will change when the device comes out. I believe though, that what you'll see are apps/services that do it wirelessly, or provide some mechanism to use the Pre as attached storage.

    However, I digress. The new strategy was a requirement for the cash that their new partners provided. That's the nature of things like this. No one comes in and says "You've been losing money - here's some more, keep doing what you've been doing". Nope, when a new company comes on board with money, they want you to do something different. They're signing the checks, so they get to call the shots.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by prereferee View Post
    To an extent, keeping hot sync is a crutch
    A crutch? Like...
    Emergency brake on a car
    Ac power on a laptop
    Corded headset on a bluetooth phone
    USB port on a router made for ethernet

    Some people like options, freedom, choice and plan B. Exclusivity works against that.
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by eekinsman View Post
    Doug, along with some others on this board, seem to subscribe to the idea that Palm has earned a coveted "Love it or Leave it Status." among consumers.This misguided sentiment usually follows a three step process:

    1) Tell others to accept the Pre as is, no questioning the meager memory, lack of sd card, lack of native local sync, and (at one time) lack of legacy PalmOS support.

    2) Tell others, or insinuate that they are tech-backward, too insignificant in the market and so much on the fringe, why should Palm care.

    3) Finally, tell them that they should not get the Pre. Apparently questioning Palm is altogether prohibited and therefore disqualifies one from buying and enjoying a Pre.

    Palm has not earned this Love it or Leave it status. Good thing those that wanted legacy PalmOS support were not swayed by their treatment on this board. Turns out, Palm may have been listening.
    He's right. If a product does not fit your specific requirements, if it doesn't have the feature set you want or need, go with another product. if you're buying a refrigerator that only stores 15 cubic feet of food and you need to store 20, do you put the rest on the counter? No, you find a better refrigerator.
  15. #55  
    What people fail to realize as it pertains to cloud computing and security is that every piece of transmitted information across the internet was already in the cloud. Smartphones are particularly well suited to the cloud based computing model because - guess what - they're mobile devices!

    None of is is a stranger to cloud computing - i suspect most of us get our corporate email from an exchange server, which is the same concept. Before you download your internet email it rests on a server. Where is that server? Why by golly, its in the cloud!

    Get used to it folks, whether you like it or not, cloud computing is going to take over much of what we do today locally (does anyone wonder why netbooks are a big hit?). For corporations like Palm and Sprint, its more efficient, less costly, and for consumers on the go, much easier.

    Now, I do think carriers and manufacturers need to do a better job of migrating users over, and if Palm does not develop a desktop sync alternative there will be third-party apps for it. iPhone didn't offer synch (unless it was itunes content), but now a wealth of apps are available for it.

    For those who think Palm/Sprint is the only smartphone manufacturer and carrier using cloud sync, educate yourselves.
  16. #56  
    P.S. The riskier strategy for Palm would be to not transition to the cloud. Staying with yesterday's processes while delivering functionality for today and tomorrow is just silly.
  17. #57  
    No, he's wrong and so are you. If you like the refrigerator, but desire more storage, or a different ice making connection, make your voice herd. Of course, if its a deal breaker, then yes, turn and buy another product, none of these are to me. But I for one believe that Palm monitors these Boards, (with a grain of salt, yes). Also, if I were a developer, I'd certainly read these boards and determine what are the issues some people have with the pre and what can I do to close that gap and make some money. The Love it or Leave it, shut up and buy something else mantra discourages both Palm and developer improvement of the Pre, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcunwired View Post
    He's right. If a product does not fit your specific requirements, if it doesn't have the feature set you want or need, go with another product. if you're buying a refrigerator that only stores 15 cubic feet of food and you need to store 20, do you put the rest on the counter? No, you find a better refrigerator.
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
  18. #58  
    So, let your food spoil until you scream loud enough to get your way? Good luck with that one
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by eekinsman View Post
    A crutch? Like...
    Emergency brake on a car
    Ac power on a laptop
    Corded headset on a bluetooth phone
    USB port on a router made for ethernet

    Some people like options, freedom, choice and plan B. Exclusivity works against that.
    Ummm.....Wow. Way to totally misrepresent my argument there by taking a fragment of a sentence out of context. Out of my 530 word post, you took umbrage with 9 words, not even a full sentence; you found 1.6% objectionable, and even then I am not sure you understood the full context. If you want to disagree with my arguments, feel free to do so, I am more than willing to discuss and debate and change my mind, but at least try and take in the whole argument not the McNuggets.

    I said options are good, but that Palm doesn't need to be the provider of all of them. They need to focus on building the best device to meet the needs of the most people, compromise to make it work well and be cohesive so that more people can use it. If there are things people want not included, this is where third party solutions come in.

    The crutch argument was talking about long-term. I didn't use DOS programs in windows 98, but there was the option to do so included by Microsoft. Now they have taken away that functionality and I would guess 99.9% of people don't miss it much. In the same way, as WebOS becomes a more robust platform, the cloud becomes more prevalent, and home servers more numerous in the years to come as trends seem to indicate, the concept of manual hot syncing is likely to be relevant to a smaller and smaller segment of the population.

    If other developers want to develop for individual subsections of the population with different needs, then great, but the expectation that Palm needs to develop to meet the needs of everyone would lead to the most unusable devices known to man. Third parties can fill the gap if there is a market for it. As you note exclusivity is bad, but Palm isn't forcing exclusivity, they are encouraging developers to fill the gaps the market sees.

    As I said, I am more than willing to debate and discuss this at length but I will only do so in an intellectually honest manner that takes into account the entirety of the argument.
  20. #60  
    No, I've got a second fridge in the garage. But hey, whose screaming anyway? Look, to those who come to these threads and say:
    a) stop complaining, take the Pre or leave it,
    my response is:
    b) stop complaining about our complaints. No one's gotta gun to your head forcing you into these threads.



    Quote Originally Posted by jcunwired View Post
    So, let your food spoil until you scream loud enough to get your way? Good luck with that one
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
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