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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by MannyZ28 View Post
    Lol....the one time I over generalize!

    I should've said it but I couldn't help myself...I'm sorry
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I'm curious as to the remarkable lack of business acumen here.

    Palm is a company poised on a precarious ledge. To get off that ledge, they have to create a consumer-focused product that is a compelling alternative to the current "prosumer" leading phone - the iPhone.

    And you think MicroSD slots are the way to do that? Come on, people. Over 10 million people have ponied up for a sexy-looking device with nothing but onboard storage, and they love that just fine. These are the type of consumers Palm needs to attract to grow and stay alive. So having a good amount of onboard storage should be and is a priority over the relatively small number of users filling up MicroSD cards with music, movies, and app backups.

    It should be about an optimal out-of-the-box experience for both power users AND people who are new to smartphones...not having people buy your device, then buy an 8 or 16GB microSD card, making sure it's formatted for the new OS, and then having your media software constantly reading off external storage. Has that helped ANY other Windows Mobile, Palm, or Android device on the market gain a leg up over the iPhone or even their other competitors? No.

    I don't think it's a good idea to copy the iPhone model to that degree.

    1. Just because Apple gets away with this doesn't mean Palm can. Palm doesn't have the same fanboyism that Apple does. Apple can do no wrong in many people's eyes, that's just the way it is, correct or not.

    2. 8GB is too low for 2009. It would have been fine in 2007 and even up to mid 2008 it would have been decent. But phones supporting up to 32GB cards are out. 16GB microSD cards are out now around $100 but will only go down in price this year. Also there's hope for a 32GB iPhone sometime this year. If Palm had done 16GB, that may have stopped much of the "no microSD slot" complaints. BUT THEN...

    3. If the Pre's firmware crashes, where's all the apps and stuff you added? Since there's no desktop sync(another problem IMO), how much of a hassle is it to get it back on after you restore the firmware? But if you had an expansion slot, even with no desktop sync, if the phone crashes and your apps and stuff are loaded onto the card, at least you can get some of your stuff back on the phone faster. I believe some others have mentioned the convenience of restoring from back ups on the card. Another reason the iPhone can get away with no card expansion without people griping too much is because you CAN restore and back up from the computer. Since you can't do that with the Pre, no card option is a con. The "over 10 million who ponied up" for the iPhone don't have the problem of "where's my stuff" if the phone ever crashes or the firmware needs restoring.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Grace View Post
    That's fine for the PIM data, etc.

    But I find a card backup indispensable for the times when suddenly my device is crashing because of a corrupted file. I do a hard reset and restore all files from the backup. No troubleshooting needed, usually.

    How practical is it going to be to back up all key preference files, etc.?

    Hey, I'm not saying I agree with them...I'm just telling you what I think they would say. I believe a memory card slot is essential.
  4. #64  
    [QUOTE=hkklife;1548066]Personally, I am finding it quite sad that people are trying to beg Palm to come up with some kind of USB host capabilities on the Pre. Do you want to return to the bad old days of this:

    http://the-gadgeteer.com/2000/12/19/...module_review/

    QUOTE]

    While having a dongle permanenatly jutting out of the side of the PRE certianly is horror film-esque, I don't think it would be used that way. I would envision having a usb keychain fob as a backup in the event of a memory wipe, or use it to swap out movies, or even exchange data with other without being forced to go to the cloud.

    With the size of USB drives these days, you would not even need to hold (or lose) multiple micro sd cards for movies, MP3s etc. It may be even an improvement over microsd... If, of course, it really is as easy as a software fix.

    I am encouraged that at least some people here think it is a possibility to simply jam a USB drive into a pre and have it access the files via a 3rd party fix (get on it, people!). Having no other means of expandable storage is a significant drawback (perhaps the only) as I see it with the PRE.
    VisorPhone Clone
    (Please do not thank me - I find it scary)
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by hkklife View Post
    @nitf: I was sour to see fullsize SD go, simply from a cost/size/fragility/compatibility standpoint. I was also not a fan of how Palm Palm changed from fullsize SD to mini to micro in less than a years' time. I will, however, accept the "size" argument favoring microSD and am delighted to see miniSD put out to pasture.
    I understood your sense of loss and I also preferred SD because I had several already but it was an obvious business decision as the entire industry moving away from full size SD. My only objection was to your opinion that it was a more insidious decision to try and mask a lack of compatibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkklife View Post
    But the loss of the microSD slot is simply unforgivable in my book. Palm was an early proponent and back of the MMC/SD standard, dating all the way back to the m500 line in 2001.
    I would have liked a microSD slot as well but I don't consider it an unforgivable decision if i put myself in their shoes. From a general consumer point of view the inclusion of 8GB is a much better selling point than a microSD slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkklife View Post
    You can call me conspiracy-minded if you'd like but I'll just stick to my guns of the Pre & WebOs offering not only Palm but their partners the opportunity to make a few $ however possible...in fact, I think a major point of Palm's pitch to 3rd party developers to support WebOs has been "No more piracy! Guaranteed monthly revenue from selling subscriptions & services!"
    It is not a conspiracy to think that Palm is trying to enable itself and it's partners to make money that is the purpose of being in business! Being able to eliminate piracy is also a good selling point to developers but the market will produce a solution that is in demand so Palm can't guarantee the success of subscription based services any more than it did on Garnet. The chances that Palm is intentionally crippling the hardware in order to lock consumers into subscription based services are remote, they are in too risky of a position financially to take that kind of gamble.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkklife View Post
    I'm really starting to wish Cobalt or ALP had actually appeared in a shipping device so that we would've had some kind of interim stopgap between Garnet & WebOS...but as always, I'll reserve ultimate judgement until the final version of the Pre is available on store shelves and the reviews start rolling in.
    I am sure you aren't the only one who wished those products hit the market, Palm and ALP stockholders to name a few...
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Timing had nothing to do with it. Sprint "updated" those web ads to compete against the 3G iPhone very shortly after its launch.
    You are kidding right? they canceled the campaing. It was a $200 million dollar campaing that became liek a $2 million dollar campaing becasue they had labled it an iphone kliller and that became a silly argument because the new iphone came out. It was all about timing

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Where the Pre shines is in ways Apple CANNOT simply "up the ante." Will Apple have a phone with a gesture area below the screen so that you don't always have to touch the screen to navigate? No. Will OSX suddenly feature multitasking with countless apps being switchable and swipable in live windows? No. Will OSX finally get push notifications across the OS and make them so that they automatically resize the screen and not interrupt what you are doing? Maybe. But not anytime soon.
    Will web OS be a 6 month user tested OS in six months? No. Is Palm a brand with a killer brand ID? No. Does Sprint have brand problems compared to its competition as well? Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    SD slots, Garnet compatibilty, and similar complaints around here ding the Pre for not having last-generation features. I applaud Palm for leaving them behind.
    Why throw in garnet who cares? The subject of the thread is something business and power users express some interest in.

    The Pre is marekted by Palm to the Big fat middle and the lack of pro features is part of it in this first model
  7. #67  
    This cloud concept and media is a weak weak WEAK argument... You mean to tell me that in an emergency I could pull down my 8GB of media from the "cloud"? BS BS BS... Then I know someone will say well youd use your PC and drag them back over again... BS Sometimes I dont have my pc when I need to restore not to mention have you ever tried to pull 8GB thru a network let alone a EVDO connection?

    This is close to deal killer for me. Im having an open mind about it till it comes out but this almost cripples the phone for me. Ive got a 16GB SDHC on my 700P and its almost full.
    ONE can be spelled as NEO.
    There is no spoon.
  8. #68  
    Yes, a microSD card would be nice for many people. Me, I carry a lot of files on my Centro and still have 1.8GB free out of 4GB. I can see videos and music taking up alot of room for some people. I have videos, music, and Office files, but I don't carry everything I own on it. 8GB is plenty for me for now.

    The size of the card itself is not the only factor. Factor in the slot, connectors, and hookup to the board and the space needs go up.

    As for getting files onto it - Palm already said that you will be able to access the memory like a flash drive on your computer.

    Remember folks, this is their first shot at it. Remember the first version of the iPhone? I bet the Pre will beat the iPhone 3G too in specs.

    Syncing to the cloud is good in many ways. We'll have to see the details on how it actually will work.
    Dave
    "Life moves fast. Don't miss a thing" > "Works like nothing else"

    Palm IIIxe -> Tungsten T3 -> Lifedrive -> TX -> Verizon Centro -> Verizon Pre+ and TouchPad
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I'm curious as to the remarkable lack of business acumen here.

    Palm is a company poised on a precarious ledge. To get off that ledge, they have to create a consumer-focused product that is a compelling alternative to the current "prosumer" leading phone - the iPhone.

    And you think MicroSD slots are the way to do that? Come on, people. Over 10 million people have ponied up for a sexy-looking device with nothing but onboard storage, and they love that just fine. These are the type of consumers Palm needs to attract to grow and stay alive. So having a good amount of onboard storage should be and is a priority over the relatively small number of users filling up MicroSD cards with music, movies, and app backups.

    It should be about an optimal out-of-the-box experience for both power users AND people who are new to smartphones...not having people buy your device, then buy an 8 or 16GB microSD card, making sure it's formatted for the new OS, and then having your media software constantly reading off external storage. Has that helped ANY other Windows Mobile, Palm, or Android device on the market gain a leg up over the iPhone or even their other competitors? No.

    But the question begs to be asked and it was asked in another thread on this topic... would a card slot STOP any of these buyers from buying one?... probably not... would the LACK of a card slot stop some?... probably.

    My business acumen is... it cant be that expensive of a feature to outweigh the potential loss of sales without it.
    ONE can be spelled as NEO.
    There is no spoon.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by johncc View Post
    Nice try Matt, but I don't buy it.
    I agree. This could be a show-stopper for me. I carry two 8GB cards full of music and video and want even more. By the way, there's room to slip one or two micro-SD cards under the battery door of a Centro!
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    Have to weigh in here.

    I think it's quite presumptuous to assume that Palm did not add a MicroSD slot merely for greed because they want to drive customers into more expensive phones with larger storage.

    I am an engineer, and I can say with confidence that absolutely every decision made about such a tightly integrated device involved trade-offs. There is a whole lot packed into the Pre (and any other cell phone for that matter).

    My guess is that they certainly could have provided an SD slot of some sort, but something else would not have been able to be included. Perhaps they could have offered the SD slot at the expense of large internal storage. Or they could have offered the SD slot at the expense of the slider mechanism.

    I think the trade between large internal storage and SD slot (if valid) is an interesting one. Think about how the phone would have been received with only 512MB internal storage but an SD slot. First, it appears that WebOS is much bigger than Garnet (no surprise). So there would have been a lot less memory left over. And the Pre would then require an SD card just to be a viable "pro-sumer" phone. Maybe Palm could have shipped the phone with a card pre-installed, but maybe that would be more expensive than internal storage--perhaps making it much less profitable to provide at a competitive price. I, for one, want Palm to make a killing on the Pre--this ensures that it will be well supported.

    At any rate, my point is that something on the phone would have to go in order to include the microSD slot. What would you be willing to sacrifice on the device, and do you think it would still have the opportunity to be successful in such a crowded market?

    I think the overwhelming response to the Pre so far is a testament to Palm's decisions.

    Ok but if you go back to the day before launch and I told you its going to have 2GB of onboard storage and a card slot... most wouldve gone nuts. 4GB was a pipe dream 8GB? Youd be crazy... to me its clear they are trying to use the Apple model of selling you a bigger one in 18mos.

    Your trade offs are valid but using 512MB as a starting point comparing it to 8GB isnt fair. They couldve blown us ALL away with 2GB or 4GB and a slot... to use your trade off theory.
    ONE can be spelled as NEO.
    There is no spoon.
  12. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by Hdhntr23 View Post
    But the question begs to be asked and it was asked in another thread on this topic... would a card slot STOP any of these buyers from buying one?... probably not... would the LACK of a card slot stop some?... probably.

    My business acumen is... it cant be that expensive of a feature to outweigh the potential loss of sales without it.
    It seems like the thread it boiling down to some people believing the lack of an SD card is an unacceptable trade off, and other people thinking the trade off acceptable or there really is no trade off at all and Palm could have somehow fit the card in there.

    My response to you is... would an increase in size or removal of a different feature ose customers? (wi-fi? back to the smaller headphone jack? back to the old palm connector and not USB?)... but if you don't think there is any kind of trade off at all, then we, and this entire thread, is going to just keep on going in circles.
    Vx --> M515 --> T|T3 --> T|T5
    --> Treo 650 --> Centro --> Dinc

    Smart Jones - a smartphone webcomic
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    Well, there is people who finds 8gb a poor amount of memory. Well, you have two options: don't buy or reconsider how important info is really needed to carry with the phone.
    I think everyone who wants more memory is completely aware of this fact. This doesn't remove their right to discuss it. This is a discussion board, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    8Gb is a huge amount for me. And is a huge amount for a lot of people. In my case (and a lot in the market, remember "market", this is the magic word) external storage is near to irrelevant, or they buy a small capacity card and puts in the phone forever). And not to put an storage slot supposes: less space (yes, it is) and less cost.
    Not everyone has your considerations. What is irrelevant for you isn't necessarly irrelavant to others. I bet if my God isn't your God, I'm f'd. As long as Palm doesn't promote this device as a laptop replacement or a multimedia device, 8GB is more than enough. If this were marketed as a dumbphone, 8GB would be absolutely fantastic. But since this more than a mere feature phone, I would expect a larger capacity flash rom chip or expandable memory. Don't mistake your use for everyone else's.

    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    About wifi, I don't remember any case of not having phone coberture and having wifi hotspots to connect with. Wifi is really near to unnecesary, becuse with phone data connection you can make the same with less battery usage.
    Well, not everyone lives in a world as grand as yours. I can remember many cases in many places where WiFi was all I had. Building structures that kill all mobile connectivity so cellular stations had to be installed inside the plant. It's great if you have Nextel, but worthless if you are a Sprint, Verizon, T-mobile, or AT&T customer. International travel where CDMA signals were spotty, too expensive, or non-existant. GSM roaming can be too expensive for some GSM users too. WiFi is a great option when it's free at your hotel.

    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    Of course, the best option is to have all te items on the phone, but I they have to remove something, this two are perfect candidates. The HTC Diamond doesn't have card slot, and people don't blame about it, because of the space.
    In the case of the Touch Diamond, there is a very similiar option called the Touch Pro. If you needed more than 4GB, you had a choice of having more. There is no comparable option with the Pre.
  14. iradeut's Avatar
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    #74  
    currently using a Treo Pro, and would like to add to the chorus of complaints about storage on the Pre. On a 16 gig card, I now have 8 gigs of music + tom tom maps + a complete backup of the pro. Can't do all this without the card.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerorne View Post
    It seems like the thread it boiling down to some people believing the lack of an SD card is an unacceptable trade off, and other people thinking the trade off acceptable or there really is no trade off at all and Palm could have somehow fit the card in there.

    My response to you is... would an increase in size or removal of a different feature ose customers? (wi-fi? back to the smaller headphone jack? back to the old palm connector and not USB?)... but if you don't think there is any kind of trade off at all, then we, and this entire thread, is going to just keep on going in circles.
    I'm willing to bet that when the Pre hit's the street and the first teardown is made, we'll see that Palm could have added either a larger battery or a micro SD slot. I contend they selected the battery they did not because it is the only one that would fit but it is an off the shelf item for them. The 1500 mAh Pro battery was too large so the centro battery was used. How are they going to fit a SIM card into the Pre if a micro SD card will not? In the package they have, you can put a cellular radio, BT, WiFi, GPS, a micro SD slot, all the necessary antennas, and a SIM card. If a feature dumbphone can, the Pre can too.

    Companies will always give you an explaination which justifies their choices. It really doesn't matter what the true may or may not be because they will taylor their respond to support the decisions they make.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    About wifi, I don't remember any case of not having phone coberture and having wifi hotspots to connect with. Wifi is really near to unnecesary, becuse with phone data connection you can make the same with less battery usage.
    Seriously this is the kind of way of looking at it where you project your useage and assume it is the norm or the case with whatever percentage of peopel find the wifi nessessary.

    Usage of wifi on a handset:
    1) within coverage: use as a wifi hotspot for singe or multople laptops.
    eg On my Treo 800 w I can sit in the park with my phone in the parking lot in my car on the charger and work off of my laptop for a few hours fully connected.
    2) outside of coverage or in low speed data coverage:
    a) anyone who is in business knows that lots of conference are in hotels on lower floors where you get no reception but can get hotel wifi, usually free to conference participants.
    b) if you are going for a a weekend to Europe you can grab your smartphone with wifi and thereby get your email, work of your companies servers, work the web, sync etc. and send the pics you took back home to freinds or facebook
    c) in large areas of the US where you roam you only get low speed. I was on the souther outer banks last year and roaming worked but with low speed data. our hotel had free wifi (we used it with our laptop by the pool).
    d) when you retire the phone from your provider wifi adds a huge value to the customer as you can use it for many uses.
    e) airave is a hit among users with poor coverage in their homes but won't give you evdo.

    The same is occurring with the memory. Yes for some it doesn't matter, just like for some mp3 playing silly or a camera is unneeded.

    But removable memory has a serious advantage for many people. Memory needs have constantly been underestimated.
  17. dave75's Avatar
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    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by pgh1969pa View Post
    I'm willing to bet that when the Pre hit's the street and the first teardown is made, we'll see that Palm could have added either a larger battery or a micro SD slot. I contend they selected the battery they did not because it is the only one that would fit but it is an off the shelf item for them. The 1500 mAh Pro battery was too large so the centro battery was used. How are they going to fit a SIM card into the Pre if a micro SD card will not? In the package they have, you can put a cellular radio, BT, WiFi, GPS, a micro SD slot, all the necessary antennas, and a SIM card. If a feature dumbphone can, the Pre can too.

    Companies will always give you an explaination which justifies their choices. It really doesn't matter what the true may or may not be because they will taylor their respond to support the decisions they make.
    Yeah, I'm sure they left all sorts of room for features in there that they didn't add. I'm not sure how it works with cell phones, but I design medical products, and I'm given the final shape of the device by industrial designers and I have to fit all the features in that space. The fact that it has a slider with full qwerty, touchscreen, a 3.5 mm jack, and more electrical components seems to be lost on some people. Those take up space.
  18. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #78  
    I agree that many people could use an SD card, but I'm going to again say it's a trade off. Small phones sell.

    This thing is smaller than the Centro and it still manages to add wi-fi, a 3.5 headphone jack, usb connetor, and a sliding out keyboard. The keyboard takes up a lot of volume. It creates the need for two enclosures instead of one and creates a lot of dead space so you can fit the keys in there and give users the space needed to use those keys.

    I can't imagine sacrificing anything else for expandable memory. People can make do without it, but taking out wi-fi would have been an even worse decision. (I could have lived with the smaller headphone jack, but I have no idea if that's an equal trade off in volume.)
    Vx --> M515 --> T|T3 --> T|T5
    --> Treo 650 --> Centro --> Dinc

    Smart Jones - a smartphone webcomic
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syphon View Post
    I agree. Even the Razr, which is pretty thin, has a MicroSD slot.
    Although I would have liked MicroSD on the phone, I can live without it. 8GB is enough for my multimedia needs.
    wait....did you just compare the hardware in a Pre to a Razr?

    just making sure.....
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by SedahDrol View Post
    Well since they have a micro usb port they could just simply enable the ability to use a usb flash drive and solve their problem. Enabling this feature would simply be a software issue.
    I'll take this suggestion for $500, Alex
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