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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmg_P1OS21 View Post
    no room for a MicroSD? Where will they find the room for a SIM card on a GSM Pre?
    I remember an interview with Jeff Hawkins talking about designing smartphones for multiple carriers. One of the chief design guidelines is that devices look and feel the same whether they're GSM or CDMA. The innards of the GSM and CDMA versions can be radically different. As long as they have the same exterior and specs, the carriers are happy.

    In other words, Palm might have been able to put the microSD slot in the CDMA version but not the GSM one, due to the SIM card requirement. If that's true, the GSM version determined the size of the CDMA version, but Palm chose to omit the microSD slot on both platforms for consistency's sake.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    His argument about size doesn't fly though. I have thin phones with microSD slots.
    Ironically you can get even more memory with an sd because it is user scalable at the same physical size. So he had the argument backwards. In increase in 1% in volume to be able to swap cards and be able to scale up to 16 or 32.

    I am not surprised some users here say they are using one gig. But the irony there is that they unaware that means they are unnecessarily subsidizing the extra mandatory onboard memory of others. User needs will vary from 500 mb to 30 gb
  3. fwinst's Avatar
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    #43  
    OK Ladies and Gentlemen. It's time, once again, for the dumb question segment of the thread. Here we go...

    Are there any memory sticks available that would fit the Micro USB port?

    Even if the memory sticks were available, would the phone be able to pass info back and forth?

    Thank you for your kind indulgence. Excuse me now, I must go empty my drool bucket.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by VaccPalm View Post
    For me the important usage of the cars i daily backups. On the road and you lose all your data. Backup files are pretty big since they back up the whole phone. Im not sure how you would backup without a SD card. Backup using the cloud ?
    For a lot of us, that's the issue with no card -- not that we cant hold 16 gigs of movies -- but that we want the secure daily back-up of everything even when out of range of a signal. I use Backupman as well and it has saved me numerous times, including times when there would have been no way to get to a computer or the "cloud"

    In fact, I keep two cards going and swap them out so that if I lose my phone or its stolen, I can get a replacement and pop the card in and everything is just as it was.

    NOW, if Palm has made the Pre so that it never resets, never loses data, never breaks and never gets lost or stolen, then the lack of card wont be an issue for me
  5. #45  
    I'm curious as to the remarkable lack of business acumen here.

    Palm is a company poised on a precarious ledge. To get off that ledge, they have to create a consumer-focused product that is a compelling alternative to the current "prosumer" leading phone - the iPhone.

    And you think MicroSD slots are the way to do that? Come on, people. Over 10 million people have ponied up for a sexy-looking device with nothing but onboard storage, and they love that just fine. These are the type of consumers Palm needs to attract to grow and stay alive. So having a good amount of onboard storage should be and is a priority over the relatively small number of users filling up MicroSD cards with music, movies, and app backups.

    It should be about an optimal out-of-the-box experience for both power users AND people who are new to smartphones...not having people buy your device, then buy an 8 or 16GB microSD card, making sure it's formatted for the new OS, and then having your media software constantly reading off external storage. Has that helped ANY other Windows Mobile, Palm, or Android device on the market gain a leg up over the iPhone or even their other competitors? No.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by fwinst View Post
    OK Ladies and Gentlemen. It's time, once again, for the dumb question segment of the thread. Here we go...

    Are there any memory sticks available that would fit the Micro USB port?

    Even if the memory sticks were available, would the phone be able to pass info back and forth?

    Thank you for your kind indulgence. Excuse me now, I must go empty my drool bucket.

    According to the info that has been posted around here, no. The usb port is configured so that the PRE can act as a storage device but not so that it can use a storage device. Perhaps a 3rd party can change that, we will see.
  7. #47  
    Have to weigh in here.

    I think it's quite presumptuous to assume that Palm did not add a MicroSD slot merely for greed because they want to drive customers into more expensive phones with larger storage.

    I am an engineer, and I can say with confidence that absolutely every decision made about such a tightly integrated device involved trade-offs. There is a whole lot packed into the Pre (and any other cell phone for that matter).

    My guess is that they certainly could have provided an SD slot of some sort, but something else would not have been able to be included. Perhaps they could have offered the SD slot at the expense of large internal storage. Or they could have offered the SD slot at the expense of the slider mechanism.

    I think the trade between large internal storage and SD slot (if valid) is an interesting one. Think about how the phone would have been received with only 512MB internal storage but an SD slot. First, it appears that WebOS is much bigger than Garnet (no surprise). So there would have been a lot less memory left over. And the Pre would then require an SD card just to be a viable "pro-sumer" phone. Maybe Palm could have shipped the phone with a card pre-installed, but maybe that would be more expensive than internal storage--perhaps making it much less profitable to provide at a competitive price. I, for one, want Palm to make a killing on the Pre--this ensures that it will be well supported.

    At any rate, my point is that something on the phone would have to go in order to include the microSD slot. What would you be willing to sacrifice on the device, and do you think it would still have the opportunity to be successful in such a crowded market?

    I think the overwhelming response to the Pre so far is a testament to Palm's decisions.
  8. carrel's Avatar
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    #48  
    So here's what I want if I don't get and expansion card... This thought is based on my rationale for wanting expansion cards, and that is backups. Sure, the calendar and contacts will be sync-ed over the "cloud". But what about everything else. So...

    I want an rsync program that runs in the background. It can run slowly at low priority and it can constantly be checking my onboard databases with a rsync server. When something changes, the new copy will get copied to the server. If nothing changes, then no copy is needed. This could be far better than sd card backup because it could be done in near real time.

    If I had that, then 8 gigs would suffice for me. (At least for 2009 ... I think.)

    Oh... did I mention that I really want rsync over ssh. :-)
  9. JayC3's Avatar
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    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerorne View Post
    I think that's an unfair comparison because you're leaving out the touch screen and sliding out keyboard. Even the iphone 3G doesn't meet the thickness to that Nokia E71, and I'm sure Apple was also trying to get their phone as thin as possible. Here are the dimensions for the main touch phones right now (with my Centro thrown in.)

    Pre - 3.96in x 2.35 x 0.67 inches - Volume = 6.23 inches^3
    Centro - 4.22 x 2.11 x 0.73 inches - Volume = 6.50inches^3
    iPhone 3G - 4.5 x 2.4 x 0.48 inches - Volume = 5.18 inches^3
    BB Storm - 4.43 x 2.45 x .55 inches - Volume = 5.97 inches^3
    G1 - 4.6 x 2.16 x 0.62 inches - Volume = 6.16 inches^3

    Of course I don't have info on their battery sizes on here, which is another big factor.
    I'm not saying that Palm should have the Pre in a 10mm thick package (but that would be sweet!) , my point is that since the pre has a thickness of around 16.5mm (almost a 50% more of the E71), putting the microSD slot should still be possible if Palm really wanted to do it.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    At any rate, my point is that something on the phone would have to go in order to include the microSD slot. What would you be willing to sacrifice on the device, and do you think it would still have the opportunity to be successful in such a crowded market?
    A 1% increase in volume and $5 to $10 would be what would be sacrificed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    I think the overwhelming response to the Pre so far is a testament to Palm's decisions.
    Yes, the interesting question is will it alienate 5%, 10% or 20% of people?

    It ia tick mark in the "con" category, not a deal killer for most.

    Discussing why it is a tick mark in the con, and what drawbacks lack of micro SD creates is not a complaint it is very legit discussion.

    do you see a serious irony in your position? Here is one. Palm highlighted the replaceable battery in a very pointed reference to iphone limit. This is the same type of issue.
  11. dave75's Avatar
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by janric View Post
    I'm not saying that Palm should have the Pre in a 10mm thick package (but that would be sweet!) , my point is that since the pre has a thickness of around 16.5mm (almost a 50% more of the E71), putting the microSD slot should still be possible if Palm really wanted to do it.
    Again you're ignoring the features the Pre has that the E71 doesn't. Also there are two other dimensions you are ignoring, thickness isn't the only criteria to be able to fit a microsd slot.
  12. dave75's Avatar
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    A 1% increase in volume and $5 to $10 would be what would be sacrificed.
    Where do you get 1% from? I don't know the actual dimensions, but the onboard memory must be much smaller than everything required for a microsd slot. You have the receptacle and any connectors/boards/circuits to make it work, any molded in features required to capture the receptacle, and the space for the card itself. Relative to the rest of the device, this may be small but I would bet it is more than 1%.

    And one thing I don't think has been brought up. Moving parts are generally going to fail eventually. Somebody will put them in wrong or poke something in there and break it or it will just wear and fatigue. It's also another water ingress point. Palm could have made this decision based on replacement costs.
  13. hkklife's Avatar
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    #53  
    @ jbg7474:

    Lack of a microSD slot + Palm's cloud-centric mentality + no desktop Hotsync + Sprint adds up to being a deal-breaker for me *personally*.

    I (obviously in the minority here) like having some choices and Palm's Garnet devices, while horribly antiquated and unreliable, at least offered us a handful of options as far as hardware (removable batteries & removable memory card slots) alongside oodles of software, much of it available for free and/or at a reasonable one-time purchase price.

    It's looking more and more that the Pre is shaping up to be a rather constraining device with a potentially high TCO with the "nickel & dime" cost factors of everything coming in a "service". Example: I bought SplashWallet several years ago. It was by no means a cheap app but I've gotten tons and tons of use out of SplashID, Money, and Photo. Would I use all of those apps if I had a $5/month charge for each individual app? No, I'd much rather stomach a one-time purchase fee and be done with it. How about the Pre's omission of video recording on its camera app? It's been there since the Treo 600, so why omit it now? It's either to sell a video recorder app/plugin/service or just another feature Palm deemed OK to jettison due to Apple not offering it. How about the lack of voice dialing over BT or a voice recording app or some kind of voice command functionality? Palm cannot use their "the OS cannot support it" argument anymore.

    @dave75; All good and very valid points. But again, those are all aspects of the "tough decisions" that manufacturers have to make. Out of every smartphone on the market, I like RIM's approach with the BB Storm the best----1gb of fixed "secure" storage onboard + the option of a microSDHC slot for the multimedia types who need it for music or videos etc. It's too bad the BB OS' memory architecture still handles external storage so inefficiently.

    @nitf: I was sour to see fullsize SD go, simply from a cost/size/fragility/compatibility standpoint. I was also not a fan of how Palm Palm changed from fullsize SD to mini to micro in less than a years' time. I will, however, accept the "size" argument favoring microSD and am delighted to see miniSD put out to pasture.

    But the loss of the microSD slot is simply unforgivable in my book. Palm was an early proponent and back of the MMC/SD standard, dating all the way back to the m500 line in 2001.

    You can call me conspiracy-minded if you'd like but I'll just stick to my guns of the Pre & WebOs offering not only Palm but their partners the opportunity to make a few $ however possible...in fact, I think a major point of Palm's pitch to 3rd party developers to support WebOs has been "No more piracy! Guaranteed monthly revenue from selling subscriptions & services!"

    I'm really starting to wish Cobalt or ALP had actually appeared in a shipping device so that we would've had some kind of interim stopgap between Garnet & WebOS...but as always, I'll reserve ultimate judgement until the final version of the Pre is available on store shelves and the reviews start rolling in.
    Last edited by hkklife; 01/23/2009 at 11:18 AM.
    Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Verizon Treo 700P-->Verizon Treo 755p-->Verizon Motorola Droid + Verizon Centro--> Verizon Motorola Droid X + Palm TX-->Verizon Droid Bionic + Palm TX
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    A 1% increase in volume and $5 to $10 would be what would be sacrificed.



    Yes, the interesting question is will it alienate 5%, 10% or 20% of people?

    It ia tick mark in the "con" category, not a deal killer for most.

    Discussing why it is a tick mark in the con, and what drawbacks lack of micro SD creates is not a complaint it is very legit discussion.

    do you see a serious irony in your position? Here is one. Palm highlighted the replaceable battery in a very pointed reference to iphone limit. This is the same type of issue.
    Agreed, lack of microSD is a con. No question. But I think there are cons to any device. There are pros and cons for everything--I find it very interesting where designers choose to put their cons.

    I don't think my position (that something has to give in order to add microSD) is ironic at all. Yeah, removable battery was highlighted. It was a feature that they wanted to keep, and it came at the expense of something else. Perhaps they could have added a microSD slot if they had done away with the removable battery! A non-removable battery pack can be molded to odd shapes, which might allow them to squeeze it in and still provide room for the slot in question. But then we would have heard lots of complaints about the lack of a removable battery!

    Oh, and I should also mention that $5-$10 could definitely be the difference between profitability and loss on a high-volume consumer electronics item. A judgment may have been made that 1% greater thickness would have made the Pre less desirable. Who knows?

    We really just don't know. All of our ranting here is baseless speculation. Systems engineering is a complex business, but it all boils down to a series of trades. The art of it is meeting all the requirements and still making a profit.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by pgh1969pa View Post
    The Palm solution would be to pull it all back down from the "cloud".
    That's fine for the PIM data, etc.

    But I find a card backup indispensable for the times when suddenly my device is crashing because of a corrupted file. I do a hard reset and restore all files from the backup. No troubleshooting needed, usually.

    How practical is it going to be to back up all key preference files, etc.?
  16. #56  
    I don't think anyone has all the info yet on backups, syncing, etc..so its premature to judge or even worry yet without knowing more.
  17. hkklife's Avatar
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    #58  
    Personally, I am finding it quite sad that people are trying to beg Palm to come up with some kind of USB host capabilities on the Pre. Do you want to return to the bad old days of this:

    http://the-gadgeteer.com/2000/12/19/...module_review/

    Having a dongle hanging off of my Palm Vx was unacceptable 8-9 years ago, so a microSD slot is obviously still the way to go. Barring that, it'd be nice if Palm borrrowed a page from Asus' playbook (instead of constantly copying from Apple) and gave all Pre users a few gigs of free storage space online alongside an integrated backup app, at least to cover the critical PIM data with the option to do 3rd party apps and media files. But THEN we'll have to start about Sprint getting upset users hogging their network bandwidth by transmitting too much data. You know, it's almost surprising Sprint didn't demand a memory card slot + backup app (like on the Treo Pro) in order to ease the demands on their network...unless of course, y'know, it's a conspiracy by Palm & Sprint! ;-)
    Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Verizon Treo 700P-->Verizon Treo 755p-->Verizon Motorola Droid + Verizon Centro--> Verizon Motorola Droid X + Palm TX-->Verizon Droid Bionic + Palm TX
  18. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    Agreed, lack of microSD is a con. No question. But I think there are cons to any device. ...
    I don't think my position (that something has to give in order to add microSD) is ironic at all. Yeah, removable battery was highlighted. It was a feature that they wanted to keep, and it came at the expense of something else. ...
    Oh, and I should also mention that $5-$10 could definitely be the difference between profitability and loss on a high-volume consumer electronics item. A judgment may have been made that 1% greater thickness would have made the Pre less desirable. Who knows?
    ..
    We really just don't know. All of our ranting here is baseless speculation. Systems engineering is a complex business, but it all boils down to a series of trades. The art of it is meeting all the requirements and still making a profit.
    I don't think we are in disagreement so much as point out two different points of view.

    I think the characterizing of it as ranting is the problem. It is almost entirely a rational discussion and calling the comments by some who see it as a con or deal breaker "ranting" is the problem.

    Was Palm "ranting" at calling attention to the lack of removable battery in iphone which is a similar trade off?
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I'm curious as to the remarkable lack of business acumen here.
    This is simlar characterization.

    Palm need to beat the pants off of the iphone. Brand matters. iPhone has brand of gold.

    Do you think apple wont up the ante? look at Sprints last iphone killer. Tehy announced a $200 million marketing campaign centered around comparing the instinct to the prior iphone, the videos became a deeply ironic case history in bad timing.

    Lots of people, myself included thing it is a great phone with lots of features, it is not about damning the phone. It is also about what may or maynot be included on following iterations in the webOS line and whether the power business users will be targeted.
  19. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    This is simlar characterization.

    Palm need to beat the pants off of the iphone. Brand matters. iPhone has brand of gold.

    Do you think apple wont up the ante? look at Sprints last iphone killer. Tehy announced a $200 million marketing campaign centered around comparing the instinct to the prior iphone, the videos became a deeply ironic case history in bad timing.
    Timing had nothing to do with it. Sprint "updated" those web ads to compete against the 3G iPhone very shortly after its launch. There's no competition. The iPhone is a far superior device. Better touchscreen. Better resolution. Apps. More storage. Better media player. More frequent software updates. Better browser.

    Sprint paid for and shipped a turkey, and they knew marketing was the only way to make it fly.

    Where the Pre shines is in ways Apple CANNOT simply "up the ante." Will Apple have a phone with a gesture area below the screen so that you don't always have to touch the screen to navigate? No. Will OSX suddenly feature multitasking with countless apps being switchable and swipable in live windows? No. Will OSX finally get push notifications across the OS and make them so that they automatically resize the screen and not interrupt what you are doing? Maybe. But not anytime soon.

    SD slots, Garnet compatibilty, and similar complaints around here ding the Pre for not having last-generation features. I applaud Palm for leaving them behind.
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