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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Again, I find no need to keep two separate lists of contacts in different locations. I cant think of any advantage to doing this. I can already filter them by category, and color coordinate my calendar by personal and work.

    As for BIS, I get all my gmail and yahoo email sent into my unified mailbox on my Blackberry without ever having to do a local sync. Also, I noticed it happens almost instantly.
    Of course you get all you gmail and yahoo email sent into my unified mailbox on my Blackberry without ever having to do a local sync, thats what BIS is for, email delivery.

    As for the other data, who said anything about keeping two seperate contact lists. If you want just one contact list on all your devices (including your your own PC), you are going to need a way to sync your contact list with those other devices. BES won't help you if your company only allows devices they own and manage to connect to it. Also, if you own a personal Blackberry, you may not want to pay another $30 a month for a hosted BES solution and BIS will only deliver email. In either case you can sync your BB to your PC using Blackberry's desktop software.
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhody View Post
    Charles, I agree with most of what you say on here and in your blog. The SaaS model is the future. I work with a huge technology company, and they're always looking for products they can provide as a service.

    I see the SaaS model as a potential win-win. There is a continuous competition. When one service adds a feature, every competing service feels the pressure to add that feature right away rather than waiting for the next "version." And some SaaS competitors, like Mint and Quicken Online for example, eventually go free. That's why I think the MyPalm PIM service (if it exists) will be free. It would be competing with the free Google, Yahoo and Live offerings, so they will probably provide calendar and tasks for free with a lot of premium add-on services.
    Um...I disagree completely. From my viewpoint, it is a lose/lose. I end up paying more AND I lose direct control of my data. And there is plenty of competition now. SaaS lowers competition in my view and gives more leverage to the "service provider". The only convenience I can see is that it does allow you to merge disparate contact information into one display screen.
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    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    Um...I disagree completely. From my viewpoint, it is a lose/lose. I end up paying more AND I lose direct control of my data. And there is plenty of competition now. SaaS lowers competition in my view and gives more leverage to the "service provider". The only convenience I can see is that it does allow you to merge disparate contact information into one display screen.
    Please note that I said it was a "potential" win-win. The SaaS model is relatively young. The most prominent example in my mind is that of Quicken. I always had to pay for Quicken software. Then banks started offering online banking for free, and they started offering more and more features online making Quicken software somewhat unnecessary. Mint and Quicken started offering online services at about the same time. That competition encouraged Quicken to start offering financial accounts online and then dropping the monthly fee. There's no telling what that example means to the rest of the SaaS model, but it certainly doesn't tell me that online services will have you "end up paying more."
  4. DHart's Avatar
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    #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhody View Post
    Please note that I said it was a "potential" win-win. The SaaS model is relatively young. The most prominent example in my mind is that of Quicken. I always had to pay for Quicken software. Then banks started offering online banking for free, and they started offering more and more features online making Quicken software somewhat unnecessary. Mint and Quicken started offering online services at about the same time. That competition encouraged Quicken to start offering financial accounts online and then dropping the monthly fee. There's no telling what that example means to the rest of the SaaS model, but it certainly doesn't tell me that online services will have you "end up paying more."
    Anecdotal evidence is a common way to make an argument - point at one specific example to lend credence in the idea it can be extrapolated to be true for all instances. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't agree with this concept. Companies would not be moving to this model if they were going to make less money now would they? SaaS produces a fundamental shift in the leverage of the buy/sell relationship toward the seller. As I have read elsewhere here in the forum, once the seller becomes the central repository for your data, it is has powerful leverage over your decision to continue to use that service or another. Quicken isn't the central repository of your data, the bank is.

    Which is why I want the central repository for my contact information on MY PC?

    I am not technologically astute enough to know the answer to the is question:

    Why couldn't Palm offer software that treats your own PC as one of the servers it pulls PIM information from and designates it as the central repository of that information?
  5. #65  
    for your pc to act as a sever, wouldn't it would have to be left on 24/7? I use a laptop that I shut down everytime I leave the house. Now if I had my PIM databases on a NAS drive, I'd be cool with it.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    Why couldn't Palm offer software that treats your own PC as one of the servers it pulls PIM information from and designates it as the central repository of that information?
    I've proposed a very similar idea, although I don't feel like my PC has to be the central or authoritative repository for everything. I'm happy keeping my personal calendar and contacts on Gmail/Gcal where I get at them from everywhere, while at work I've got a Lotus Notes calendar that has to be authoritative.

    I'd love to see a Palm-supported application that allowed your desktop system to (securely) participate in the cloud as a co-equal repository with any other cloud-based service (Gcal, Notes, etc) that I choose to link to with my Pre.

    By having this Palm-supported, it can be a standard environment developers can count on to connect to your Pre, without themselves having to build or rent infrastructure (servers, etc) for supporting their application.
  7. cgk
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    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post

    Why couldn't Palm offer software that treats your own PC as one of the servers it pulls PIM information from and designates it as the central repository of that information?
    Because basically from an infrastructure point of view, it's cheaper and easier for them to do it all in-house and because, as you mentioned, it is easier for them to build the subscription base because the idea is that inertia will keep you with them.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    [...] I am not technologically astute enough to know the answer to the is question:

    Why couldn't Palm offer software that treats your own PC as one of the servers it pulls PIM information from and designates it as the central repository of that information?
    There are going to be several reasons. Most prominent is that your PC is probably not going to be accessible from the cloud as is. For them to install software to make it accessible from the cloud, they would have to either have you open up certain ports/translations to the Internet for the Pre to access it (which is beyond most people), or install some sort of server software that checks in with a repository to relay the information a la GoToMyPC. Neither of these scenarios is going to be desirable to Palm from a support standpoint. One will require them to become SOHO router support for all sorts of devices, and the other will require them to build their own P2P network of sorts.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by west3man View Post
    If we are being inundated with so many threads and posts about "the missing sync," I suppose it's noteworthy that so many posters still maintain that the lack of Hotsync is not a big deal.

    Clearly, it matters to a significant number of people. Hopefully, that will be made apparent to the powers that be.
    yup --

    weird that those who don't care about local hot syncing have been dominating -- even bullying -- the discussion of this topic from the beginning...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  10. #70  
    The "cloud" is only a new idea to those who are too young to have endured mainframes. Sure, there are differences, but the bottom line is the same: when the connection goes down (and it will), you are screwed!

    Sure, the cloud makes it easier for sys admins to maintain software at a central location, and for companies to charge for their "service," but it means the user has far less control of the security, availability, ability to manipulate (i.e., apps), and speed of access of their data. The cloud compares to the PC like public transportation compares to your personal car (Anyone in Seattle who was stranded when the buses stopped running during the recent snow storm will understand.).

    I want the Pre badly, but lack of desktop synchronization is a show stopper. I deal with proprietary data that cannot be trusted to the unsecured internet, and my employer will not allow my personal smartphone to get access to the company networks over an unsecured wireless connection. Yet the value of my Outlook PIM data (e.g., meeting notice) depends on me having access to it on my PDA.
  11. #71  
    How about Bluetooth Sync?
  12. #72  
    Bob G: That was an excellent post. I think you hit the nail on the head. But I think it is tribute to Palm's marketing spin of this so far that some apparently see lack of desktop sync as a feature.

    We still don't know exactly what the feature set is going to be when Palm rolls this out, but lack of desktop synch (cable or bluetooth) would be a deal breaker for me also.

    But I'd a little surprised (but not shocked) if they lauched it without desktop sync. While practically everyone I know uses yahoo and google for free email and most (including me) have facebook accounts, hardly anyone I know uses web-based PIMs (except MS Exchange) as their primary PIM.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeP View Post
    Bob G: That was an excellent post...
    *blush* Thanks.

    I will also be surprised (and disappointed) if the Pre doesn't support desktop synchronization. Watching the launch of the Pre told me that Palm is finally listening to their customers. From the 3.5 mm headset jack to the multitasking OS, they incorporated feature after feature that we have been wanting for years. I understand the benefit of syncing to the cloud for those who don't have corporate IT departments or data security concerns to deal with, but dumping "HotSync" altogether just doesn't seem congruent with Palm's new "delight the customer" attitude.
  14. #74  
    Medical users with confidential data would be also unkeen to have data synced with third parties beyond their control.
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  15. cgk
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    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob G View Post
    altogether just doesn't seem congruent with Palm's new "delight the customer" attitude.
    I think the point is - it's delighting the new customer that palm is interested in. That's really what most of the debates here are about - they aren't really about hotsync or SD cards or anything like that - they are about loyalty and the relationship that has been built between the Palm OS community. There are those of us (and I'm in that camp) who think that Palm just doesn't care about the needs of legacy Palm OS users one iota and those who think that's complete wrong (and of course people in the middle).

    People look for continuity and everyone asks the obvious question how does this fit with how I currently work?

    People who have stuck with Palm OS do so because it's proved to be an exceptionally good OS for productivity and supporting lots of niches of people (estate agents, doctors etc) who want that strong PIM functionality plus the X program that supports their specialist niche.

    So when they look at the Pre, they ask "how does this support my way of working and my specialist need X?" This is a reasonable question but... but..

    It's pretty clear (well it seems pretty clear to me) that whatever the original intention was for Nova/WebOS (and the roadmap in 2007 makes a big play of it natively supporting Palm OS apps), that the outcome has been a OS that has been designed from the ground up and deliberately has given no consideration to legacy users - they just don't figure into the process.

    That's why there is no SD slot, no palm desktop, no way to natively run apps - because Palm has clearly said (internally) "if we started from scratch and were a new company, what would we come up with?" and if you started from scratch, you wouldn't put any of those things in.

    This leads to the next important question that palm must have asked "and who would buy it and what would they want to do with it?" and again, Palm doesn't care what the last generation of users were doing with the devices, they are interested what the next generation of users are doing with their devices and what they will be doing with their devices over the next decade - the OS is designed to sustain Palm for the next ten years and has to be designed with that in mind.

    The next generation of users are social networking all over the place and seem to be completely happy to put all sorts of information into the cloud. You want to do business? then Palm will sell you a Treo Pro. The pre is about presence rather than productivity. That's not to say that someone will not develop business apps for the pre because they will - but that's a sideshow for the intended market.

    Why are Palm doing this? Well, we can guess - it's because Palm are gambling that all of the Palm OS users still out there are a drop in the bucket to the potential number of customers they can get if they get this right.

    Palm is now controlled by some very smart and very hard businesspeople - they care about the middle market and cold hard cash (and I'm not critical of them for that - it's a business, it's intended to make money for it's shareholders).
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    I think the point is - it's delighting the new customer that palm is interested in. That's really what most of the debates here are about - they aren't really about hotsync or SD cards or anything like that - they are about loyalty and the relationship that has been built between the Palm OS community.

    There are those of us (and I'm in that camp) who think that Palm just doesn't care about the needs of legacy Palm OS users one iota and those who think that's complete wrong (and of course people in the middle).

    People look for continuity and everyone asks the obvious question how does this fit with how I currently work?

    People who have stuck with Palm OS do so because it's proved to be an exceptionally good OS for productivity and supporting lots of niches of people (estate agents, doctors etc) who want that strong PIM functionality plus the X program that supports their specialist niche.

    So when they look at the Pre, they ask "how does this support my way of working and my specialist need X?" This is a reasonable question but... but..

    It's pretty clear (well it seems pretty clear to me) that whatever the original intention was for Nova/WebOS, that the outcome has been a OS that has been designed from the ground up and deliberately has given no consideration to legacy users - they just don't figure into the process.

    That's why there is no SD slot, no palm desktop, no way to natively run apps - because Palm has clearly said (internally) "if we started from scratch and were a new company, what would we come up with?" and if you started from scratch, you wouldn't put any of those things in.

    This leads to the next important question that palm must have asked "and who would buy it and what would they want to do with it?" and again, Palm doesn't care what the last generation of users were doing with the devices, they are interested what the next generation of users are doing with their devices and what they will be doing with their devices over the next decade - the OS is designed to sustain Palm for the next ten years and has to be designed with that in mind.

    The next generation of users are social networking all over the place and seem to be completely happy to put all sorts of information into the cloud. You want to do business? then Palm will sell you a Treo Pro. The pre is about presence rather than productivity. That's not to say that someone will not develop business apps for the pre because they will - but that's a sideshow for the intended market.

    Why are Palm doing this? Well, we can guess - it's because Palm are gambling that all of the Palm OS users still out there are a drop in the bucket to the potential number of customers they can get if they get this right.

    Palm is now controlled by some very smart and very hard businesspeople - they care about the middle market and cold hard cash (and I'm not critical of them for that - it's a business, it's intended to make money for it's shareholders).
    Good post... not that I agree with all of it, but a good post. My disagreements would only cause lame argument....

    Good post....
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  17. cgk
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    #77  
    And I keep saying this I'm guessing all of this with the same information that the rest of you have but I think when you write a rant it ruins the flow to keep sticking in "I would argue", "It could well be", "in my view and with respect for.."

    If people think I'm full of **** - that's because I am!
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    That's why there is no SD slot, no palm desktop, no way to natively run apps - because Palm has clearly said (internally) "if we started from scratch and were a new company, what would we come up with?" and if you started from scratch, you wouldn't put any of those things in.
    I think this is a very important point. The Pre is not a Palm device in the traditional sense, the WM Treos aren't really Palm devices either but they are closer than the Pre.

    Bottom line is, just because you loved the PalmOS Treo or PDA doesn't mean you will love the Pre (or should love the Pre). If you are still a PalmOS You should evaluate and compare the Pre to Android and the IPhone. Alternatively maybe a WM Treo or BB makes more sense.

    You could of course chose "none of the above and just buy a Centro".
  19. #79  
    Isn't that kind of sad though? besides the fact that it's a bit of an FU to those that have been loyal for one reason or the other over the years, it's also a lost opportunity to really one up the likes of the iphone, storm, touch and gphone. Everything with palm has always been about 6 months to a year behind where we thought they should be, and always a few steps behind of where we thought they should be. So regardless of who's pulling the strings, why should we expect it to be any different?

    Not necessarily sure abandoning the Palm OS was a complete FU to the current palm owners. I think the fact that writing programs for the new WebOS is that easy, programs that were worthwhile for the PalmOS will be easily written for the WebOS. Take the medical industry, I know plenty of docs that still use Palm. Some have migrated to the iPhone because they could finally get some of their programs for it. But outside of the fun gimmicky stuff, they aren't that happy with it. They don't want to stick with the same old boring palmOS phones. They've done it for how long now? Watching lackluster incremental upgrade after incremental upgrade. They're tired of incremental upgrades. They want the sexy new phones. They still have some loyalty to Palm. I had no less than six docs ask me about the Pre. So why wouldn't those software companies write their programs for the Pre? Especially when they can probably do things with the new OS that they couldn't do with the Palm OS. There should be more doors opening with this new OS. So if the program was worthwhile before, someone will write it and improve on it for the WebOS.

    In regards to the other features. Storm, gphone and Touch all have card slots and sync via desktop. Add the iphone into the desktop syncing column. So why would you make a revolutionary device that is long overdue and destined to raise you from the ashes yet leave out basic features the phones you're competing against have? Why tie yourself to a new concept without a backdoor in regards to syncing? As someone else mentioned, while many might have gmail or yahoo mail, they're not using either for a PIM. And many of these new people they're marketing too probably use outlook, but have no clue what an exchange server is.

    If I was building from the ground up, I'd do my best to keep the current customer base while appealing to a new one. I'd take the best of what I'm competing against and incorporate into my own product while trying to have a few things they don't have. I think the cloud concept with no backdoor goes against their newly intended target market. Hearing everyone here talk about cloud syncing and all their different online PIM's and exchange servers just seems to reinforce the fact that they are dialed in to their new target market since even some here aren't dialed in on it, and we're supposed to be the exception.

    The idea that people for business will get a Treo Pro is wrong. I think the intro of all these touch based phones has people moving away from updated versions of tried and true. They want sleek and sexy even if they need it for business. They're tired of the old even if it has been detailed with a new coat of paint.

    So while the Pre will be a pretty damn good device and will be the first of hopefully many, it doesn't seem like it would've taken much to make it great. Or am I just talking out of my a** because even if it had a card slot, local sync and even a d-pad, we'd find something else to rant and complain about as we speculate away?
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    I think this is a very important point. The Pre is not a Palm device in the traditional sense, the WM Treos aren't really Palm devices either but they are closer than the Pre.

    Bottom line is, just because you loved the PalmOS Treo or PDA doesn't mean you will love the Pre (or should love the Pre). If you are still a PalmOS You should evaluate and compare the Pre to Android and the IPhone. Alternatively maybe a WM Treo or BB makes more sense.

    You could of course chose "none of the above and just buy a Centro".
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    ...
    It's pretty clear (well it seems pretty clear to me) that whatever the original intention was for Nova/WebOS (and the roadmap in 2007 makes a big play of it natively supporting Palm OS apps), that the outcome has been a OS that has been designed from the ground up and deliberately has given no consideration to legacy users - they just don't figure into the process.

    That's why there is no SD slot, no palm desktop, no way to natively run apps - because Palm has clearly said (internally) "if we started from scratch and were a new company, what would we come up with?" and if you started from scratch, you wouldn't put any of those things in.
    ...
    your analysis is largely based on this idea that having an SD slot or providing a way to sync data locally is a contradiction to the rewriting of their OS -- to their re-targetting and re-imaginning their hardware.

    Ridiculous.

    Neither haviing a micro SD slot or writing an application to import and sync data from the Palm Desktop / Outlook would add much to the production hardware costs.

    Doing it would have ensured high rates of purchasing from their existing user base -- empowering an explosive intial surge of Pre adoption, cementing the PRE's credibility.

    That they haven't is mindless -- what imaginable benefit or gain offsets the comparable minimal costs ???
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
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