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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by unixpsycho View Post
    "Bricking" the phone is really hard to do... you can blow away the modem firmware or blow away the bootloader. *then* you have a bricked Pre.
    Interesting... Hmm! I would love to see that with my pre. (:
  2. #42  
    After I installed the alpha build for uber kernal and updated govnah, and put govnah on 800 constant and enabled compcache, I tried to run tiger woods golf and settlers. I got a TMC when I tried to launch settlers. So then I launched a couple of other non 3d games and email and agenda and the phone became nearly unresponsive. I did a sym+orange+r reset. Now I have tiger woods open alone; the screen is not responsive to touch. The only response I can get is when I press the gesture area button, I can go into card view, but the phone is still unresponsive. I cant even close tiger woods. Orange+sym+r worked, so maybe I will adjust some settings when the phone comes back on.

    Edit: I may not have reenabled compcache after the first reset as I just loaded the saved profile that I created for it, however this time I did set compcache to true and tried tiger woods again. It loads fine, but when I go to card view the screen again becomes unresponsive,
    Last edited by illadelphatic; 06/15/2010 at 06:17 PM.
  3. #43  
    @ Illadelphatic, It seems that you have sluggish processor. Turn the phone off by holding the switch on top of the phone,remove the battery and then press and hold the switch down again for two seconds. Replace battery and phone should perform better. If problem persist next option is a webos doctor,to fix the sluggish and unresponsiveness of the device. Good luck.


    (note) Have you tried the Compcache kernels. This kernel also carries a fix for the non-plus phones,which suffers from the too many cards error. Check the forums for the link or my thread. Good luck.
    Last edited by rush; 06/15/2010 at 07:08 PM.
  4.    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by rush View Post
    @ Illadelphatic, It seems that you have sluggish processor. Turn the phone off by holding the switch on top of the phone,remove the battery and then press and hold the switch again for two seconds. Replace battery and phone should perform better. If problem persist next option is a webos doctor,to fix the sluggish and unresponsiveness of the device. Good luck.
    No offense, but Illadelphatic please do not follow the advice in this post.

    The operation of UberKernel and compcache is not affected by a "sluggish processor" (whatever that is), and will never require a webOS doctor to fix, especially not when you're an alpha tester and are expected to assist in detailed debugging of what is happening on your device.

    Let's keep this thread to technical facts please.

    Quote Originally Posted by rush View Post
    (note) Have you tried the Compcache kernels. This kernel also carries a fix for the non-plus phones,which suffers from the too many cards error. Check the forums for the link or my thread. Good luck.
    Please be aware that the F102, F104 and Uber kernels are all part of the same experimentation, stabilisation and mainstream release process, and that Marco (uNiXpSyChO) and I are working on the same team to graduate the compcache kernel modules into the UberKernel.

    Your suggestion to an alpha tester to just switch back to the earlier experimental part of the stream instead of helping to debug the graduation process would be working against that shared goal.

    I realise that you're speading the word about compcache in the webOS community, and that's a good thing.

    But please do so with the context of what Marco and I are trying to do here in this particular thread.

    There is no competition between these kernels - they are all developed by people on the same team and there is a process of stabilisation and release to mainstream that we are all working on together.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 06/15/2010 at 07:56 PM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  5. #45  
    I may not be a license tec,but neither am I stupid. If the phone reaches a stage where it can't perform well because of a unresponsive screen,then there is only two other options I see. Doctoring the phone back to factory settings,or try a batt pull. I don't appreciate you telling someone bluntly not to follow my advice. If you have another solution to the problem,then inform the op... We are all here with options to solution.
  6.    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by rush View Post
    I may not be a license tec,but neither am I stupid. If the phone reaches a stage where it can't perform well because of a unresponsive screen,then there is only two other options I see. Doctoring the phone back to factory settings,or try a batt pull. I don't appreciate you telling someone bluntly not to follow my advice. If you have another solution to the problem,then inform the op... We are all here with options to solution.
    No, we are in this particular thread to alpha test compcache modules in UberKernel. Doing a batter pulll or running the webOS Doctor does not assist in that goal.

    If his post was in another thread, I would support your advice. But this is an alpha testing thread, and alpha testers are expected to go to great lengths to assist in debugging the real problem before pulling the battery or resorting to a webOS Doctor.

    The third option that we expect an alpha kernel tester to do is to ssh or novaterm into the device and determine *why* the screen is not responsive. If they don't do that, then the problem cannot be diagnosed and will not be fixed.

    The problem here seems to be a case of the normal swap being disabled, and the compcache swap not being enabled. The only way (at the moment) to determine whether that is the case is if the alpha tester types some commands on the command line. We need alpha testers to be able to do that and it is a clear responsibility of kernel alpha testers to be able to do that. From his post in the Govnah thread, Illadelphatic is prepared to do that both using Terminal and using novaterm when he gets home, so he is exercising his responsibility diligently.

    Again, I personally appreciate your evangelism of the compcache kernel modules (no matter which kernel they are embedded in) in other user threads. My point is that this alpha testing thread is different, and requires an appropriate response that is different to the other user threads.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 06/15/2010 at 07:52 PM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
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  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    No, we are in this particular thread to alpha test compcache modules in UberKernel. Running the webOS Doctor does not assist in that goal.

    If his post was in another thread, I would support your advice. But this is an alpha testing thread, and alpha testers are expected to go to great lengths to assist in debugging the real problem before resorting to a webOS Doctor.

    The third option that we expect an alpha kernel tester to do is to ssh or novaterm into the device and determine *why* the screen is not responsive. If they don't do that, then the problem cannot be diagnosed and will not be fixed.

    -- Rod
    I apologise for interfering. I wasn't aware of that,i thought someone needed help to a problem. I'm just eager to try and help an op with issues regarding their phone. :-)
  8.    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by rush View Post
    I apologise for interfering. I wasn't aware of that,i thought someone needed help to a problem. I'm just eager to try and help an op with issues regarding their phone. :-)
    No worries, mate. It's difficult for all of us to keep track of the different threads around these exiting new developments that Marco has spearheaded and we're now both trying to push into the mainstream kernels in a fully configurable way.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  9. #49  
    @ Rod, good luck in making it happen. Buenos noches amigo!
  10. #50  
    Should I post results in this for testing scenarios with the added compcache in uber kernel or should I post that in the uber kernel thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Grace View Post
    I'm not saying that everyone shouldn't be allowed to modify things, but rather that the TMC problem is a crucial issue that Palm should be addressing.
    Totally understand where you are coming. The problem more has to do with applications outgrew the original design. The TMC thing was a safe guard from locking up the device from having too many cards open. As apps got bigger and now with 3D gaming on the devices we experience TMC from single apps more than before where it was previously more of a thing just the hardcore multi-app users experienced. So from palms perspective it is/was probably a point of indecision on what to do about it. Heck I don't even know how long it has been in the works for reaching the current state of the kernel stuff that helps address it. I don't know how much memory remaining there was back in the day on boot up but checking mine it seems like it is almost full ( before opening any apps.
    As requested: for my works on webOS patches and apps. Twitter: @larryboytw Patches: Small icons browser start page, 5x5 launcher. I have an AAS CIS Programming degree. I enjoy working on open source projects and alpha and beta testing.
    http://install.preware.org/ for easy to get up and running for patches and apps.
  11.    #51  
    OK, back to the original topic of this thread - investigation of the Too Many Cards error.

    I now have a good idea of what causes it, why it occurs, and why it may be a good thing (yes, I did say that). Read on for the details ...

    Palm have put a mechanism called "memchute" or "lowmemnotify" in place to alert the UI and applications when memory is getting low.

    This allows apps to dump caches (e.g. grayed out browser windows), stop requesting memory allocations (e.g. Too Many Cards errors), and in a worst case, for some apps to sacrifice themselves for the good of others.

    Your webOS device has limited memory. Some of that memory is required to run things like receiving a phone call or SMS or email. Some of that memory is required to open web browser pages. Some of that memory is required to run 3D games. Some of that memory is required to load all the feed information in Preware.

    The point is that you can't expect to keep opening cards for ever without running out of memory.

    For a non-Plus Palm Pre, once the whole operating system and user interface has loaded, there is only about 100MB free for applications in normal RAM space.

    Note that your average 3D game uses about 70MB of RAM space. So two 3D games takes you well over the free ram limit of a normal Palm Pre.

    For a Palm Pre Plus, this increases to about 350MB free ram. This is the reason why you can open many more cards on a Pre Plus compared to a Pre.

    Note that there is an additional 130MB swap space available, but using this swap space means reading and writing to ssssllllloooowwww flash memory instead of relatively fast ram. This is one cause of a jerky responsiveness where things hang for a couple of seconds and then come back to life (the other major cause is garbage collection).

    Now, the algorithm that Palm uses to determine whether to allow you to open another card or not seems to be as follows:

    1) if (used_ram + used_swap) > total_ram then stop allowing new cards.
    and

    2) if (memoryRequired for all open 3D games) > total_ram then stop allowing new cards.
    Those are both approximations (there are some other finer details), but they give the general flavour of what is happening. We're far more fuzzy about the details of the second formula than the first (since we have the kernel source code for the first, but are relying on experimentation and other information to determine the second).

    So, it seems that Palm have made a decision for their total customer base, that they don't want you to ever go into swap as a result of opening applications. The rationale for this is likely to be that if the code which receives phone calls goes into very slow flash memory swap space, then there's a chance that you might miss a phone call as a result.

    Palm have decided that getting phone calls on a smartphone is more important than playing 3D games. You personally may or may not agree with that, but you probably would agree that it's a reasonable position for a smartphone company to hold on behalf of the 95+% of users who don't visit PreCentral - they usually expect a phone to work like a phone.

    So, what can we, the homebrew power users, do about this?

    Well, the first thing we can do is change the formula.

    The F102 and F104 kernels change the first formula to never ever report the out of memory condition and therefore never give a TMC error when opening normal Mojo applications. I believe the second formula is still in play (try opening more than 2 3D games on a normal Palm Pre, or about 5 or 6 3D games on a Palm Pre Plus) but may be modified slightly due to the lack of out of memory condition reporting allowing 1 or 2 additional 3D games to be opened.

    The UberKernel 1.4.x-37 which is in alpha testing changes the first formula to:

    if (used_ram + used_swap) > (total_ram + total_swap) then stop allowing new cards.
    and also does not change the second formula much other than via the expanded total (ram + swap) size which seems to allow for 1 or 2 additional 3D games to be opened.

    The second thing we can do is make swapping more efficient.

    The compcache kernel modules trade off normal memory space for faster compressed swap space.

    What this means is that you use maybe 20MB of your normal memory space (yes, that's 1/5th of the space you have for applications normally on a Palm Pre), and you create a compressed swap device that can store about 60MB of data in that 20MB space, but at the cost of taking some time to compress and uncompress the data. After the 60MB is used up, any more swap data goes out to the slow flash area.

    So this effectively increases your "fast" memory area by another 40MB (that's an extra 40% more space for new cards on a Palm Pre) before spilling over to the "slow" flash-based swap area, at the cost of accessing the last 20MB of your normally lightning fast ram at a slower speed due to compressing and uncompressing (but still much much faster than the flash swap area).

    Note that the compcache kernel modules don't actually stop the Too Many Cards errors - it's our changing of the formulas which does that. The compcache kernel modules just make the transition from very fast ram area to very slow flash swap a bit more gradual, but adding a larger (due to compression) still-fairly-fast ramzswap area in the middle.

    Now what are the downsides of all of this?

    Well, if you go and open too many cards, your device is going to get bogged down and you are going to miss phone calls or have sluggish cameras and other similar effects. You will still be able to open new cards, but nothing comes for free, and things getting bogged down is the cost you will pay.

    Now, if you have a Pre Plus, that cost won't start being paid until you've filled up the 350MB of available ram space. If you have a normal Palm Pre, then you'll start paying the cost much earlier.

    Note also that the cost will differ for different people, depending on what order you open applications, and when you last used certain applications, and how much memory your most used applications require, and how often you get emails and phone calls and twitter notifications. So don't try and compare your costs too closely with other people, cause there is unlikely to be exact correlations.

    So, what does WebOS Internals intend to do about this?

    Well firstly, Marco (uNiXpSyChO, our main kernel developer) will continue with the experimental stream of kernels (F102 and F104) which are used to experiment with new features and explore the boundaries, and some people will find those kernels to be the best choice for them.

    As far as the UberKernel goes, I've created a kernel modification to change the formula to take swap space into account, and I'm incorporating the compcache kernel modules into UberKernel in a configurable way. And Govnah is being updated to be able to control all this stuff.

    Alpha testing continues ...

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 06/16/2010 at 09:46 AM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
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  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    OK, back to the original topic of this thread - investigation of the Too Many Cards error.

    I now have a good idea of what causes it, why it occurs, and why it may be a good thing (yes, I did say that). Read on for the details ...
    Wow..you never cease to amaze me! Thanks again for all your work...

    One question for you about the swap space... does that ever get cleared up when using the device? I am using Govnah 0.4.5, originally with the public Uber-Kernel, now with the testing Uber-Kernel, and I have noticed that the swap just keeps increasing and increasing but never decreases (even if I close all my open apps). Is this normal? is there a way to "clear" that swap, and is that necessary?

    thanks again!
    Adam

    P.S. I am running on a Sprint Palm Pre
    I am the creator of the PalmSpot entry “webOS Does, and Does, and Does Some More”, writes Save/Restore scripts and helps manage the script feed, and now writes webOS Nation's Tip of the Day

    Got a good tip for webOS Nation's Tip of the Day? Please send me a PM or use the Contact Us form and select "Suggest a tip"

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  13. #53  
    My biggest problem in the past was this.

    I have just a few things open, all day. Twitter (tweetme), palm's facebook app, email, maybe the web browser off and on during the day. Some texts and phone calls, just a few though.

    I get home, and maybe want to play a game like Asphalt 5 or Shrek Kart, or Let's Golf. If I had ANYTHING open, too many cards. BUT!!! If I close everything first, STILL the too many cards error. Only solution is a total reboot, because I can't even get luna manager to open to just do a luna reset. Well sometimes I could, but sometimes not. Sometimes it was just 3D games that wouldn't open. Other times I couldn't open anything.

    Now, to answer quick questions, yes, I have JStop. Yes, I've been using Uber-kernel and before that the other overclocking kernels to run at 800 MHz. Lately, using unixpsycho's F104 kernel and now the latest Uber-kernel this hasn't been too much of an issue.

    But, why is the memory not clearing out when I close things. The too many cards error for me was never a result of opening too many cards, as I usually only opened a few. I multitask, but not huge. But closing everything and then still not being able to run an app or 3D game is SO infuriating.
  14.    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Audemars02 View Post
    One question for you about the swap space... does that ever get cleared up when using the device? I am using Govnah 0.4.5, originally with the public Uber-Kernel, now with the testing Uber-Kernel, and I have noticed that the swap just keeps increasing and increasing but never decreases (even if I close all my open apps). Is this normal? is there a way to "clear" that swap, and is that necessary?
    If you have an increasing value in your swap used line in Govnah, then that means that there is either lots of code that is loaded but is never being used by anything, or that you have a memory leak somewhere in an application or service which is operating in the background.

    Note that the C services that I have developed in WebOS Internals (for Preware, Save/Restore and Govnah) are written exclusively using small static buffers, and never to any additional memory allocation requests. You may have other applications or services for which the author has not taken the same amount of care.

    If the value in your swap line increases when you open an app, but doesn't decrease when you close the app, but the used ram line *does* decrease when you close the app, then what has probably happened is that opening and closing that app has just pushed some obscure rarely-used part of the operating system into swap. It will come back into main memory the next time it is used.

    If you want to force the used swap space to be brought back into main memory (note that your free memory must be larger than your used swap for you to be able to do this), you can just disable and re-enable the compcache kernel modules, since they flush the swap space every time they are loaded and unloaded.

    But in general, it is not a bad thing to have used swap space. Unless it's a memory leak, then it just means that there is more space in main memory for the things you are using frequently.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
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  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by supercluver View Post
    Only solution is a total reboot, because I can't even get luna manager to open to just do a luna reset. Well sometimes I could, but sometimes not. Sometimes it was just 3D games that wouldn't open. Other times I couldn't open anything.
    FYI that you may want to look at installing the http://forums.precentral.net/webos-p...line-uscl.html patch ... there are 2 options that you can do right from Universal Search to
    1) .gc (to garbage collect)
    2) .restart luna

    There are a lot of other GREAT aspects of this patch as well, but those 2 things may help out because you dont need to open an app to do this.
    I am the creator of the PalmSpot entry “webOS Does, and Does, and Does Some More”, writes Save/Restore scripts and helps manage the script feed, and now writes webOS Nation's Tip of the Day

    Got a good tip for webOS Nation's Tip of the Day? Please send me a PM or use the Contact Us form and select "Suggest a tip"

    Like any of my work:
  16.    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by supercluver View Post
    My biggest problem in the past was this.

    I have just a few things open, all day. Twitter (tweetme), palm's facebook app, email, maybe the web browser off and on during the day. Some texts and phone calls, just a few though.

    I get home, and maybe want to play a game like Asphalt 5 or Shrek Kart, or Let's Golf. If I had ANYTHING open, too many cards. BUT!!! If I close everything first, STILL the too many cards error. Only solution is a total reboot, because I can't even get luna manager to open to just do a luna reset. Well sometimes I could, but sometimes not. Sometimes it was just 3D games that wouldn't open. Other times I couldn't open anything.

    Now, to answer quick questions, yes, I have JStop. Yes, I've been using Uber-kernel and before that the other overclocking kernels to run at 800 MHz. Lately, using unixpsycho's F104 kernel and now the latest Uber-kernel this hasn't been too much of an issue.

    But, why is the memory not clearing out when I close things. The too many cards error for me was never a result of opening too many cards, as I usually only opened a few. I multitask, but not huge. But closing everything and then still not being able to run an app or 3D game is SO infuriating.
    This is part of the fuzzy area of the second formula that we don't understand fully yet. I experience the same thing as you.

    One thing you can try with Govnah 0.4.5 and UberKernel 1.4.x-37 is to flush the swap space as described in my post two above this one, and see if that resets the second formula enough to allow the 3D game to be opened.

    If you find that you don't have 100MB of free ram plus free swap reclaimed when you close all your apps, then that means you have a memory leak somewhere in one of the apps or services that run in the background (e.g. the service that notifies you of new emails may well be holding the headers for all the emails in your inbox or something).

    Note that the values shown in Govnah at the moment cannot be used to calculate the free ram and free swap, because they don't take into account memory that is temporarily used for linux caches and file buffering, which is immediately reclaimed and made available if an application requires it. I'll be looking to make this more explicit in the display in the future (or perhaps get oil to work out how best to display those things - all the information is now available from the service and it's just a matter of working out how best to display it in Govnah).

    Just type "free" on the command line to get the full picture of free ram and free swap.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 06/16/2010 at 10:04 AM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
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  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    This is part of the fuzzy area of the second formula that we don't understand fully yet. I experience the same thing as you.

    One thing you can try with Govnah 0.4.5 and UberKernel 1.4.x-37 is to flush the swap space as described in my post two above this one, and see if that resets the second formula enough to allow the 3D game to be opened.

    If you find that you don't have 100MB of free ram plus free swap reclaimed when you close all your apps, then that means you have a memory leak somewhere in one of the apps or services that run in the background (e.g. the service that notifies you of new emails may well be holding the headers for all the emails in your inbox or something).

    -- Rod
    Well I'm just glad others (especially you since you are so knowledgeable) are seeing this same situation. I'll try flushing the swap now that I have that ability with Govnah and UberKernel and see what that does for me. And I'm guessing there is probably some memory leak. Maybe TweetMe or Weather Window.... Or Palm's Facebook Beta.... guess I have investigating to do if no one knows of a memory leak with those apps....
  18. TomD's Avatar
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    #58  
    Awesome work!

    Got any ideas how to improve JSGC, beyond JSTop?
    Tom
    Pilot Prō --> M100 --> Trēō 600 --> Trēō 700p -- > Prē
  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomD View Post
    Awesome work!

    Got any ideas how to improve JSGC, beyond JSTop?
    I personally have never looked into that.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  20. #60  
    I do have a suggestion.

    I noticed that in Preware Luna Manager, you can restart java. This is similar to jstop.

    I'm using the Sprint Palm Pre, and I've noticed that if I get the TMC error, I just restart the java and my phones memory has reset and everything works fine again. Could this be used in any way?
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    We always prefer that people donate in response to tangible items they can use today, rather than for intangible promises about the future that may or may not be possible to achieve.
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