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  1. #421  
    Installed the uber kernel a few days ago, and wanted to report what could possibly be a bug that bricked my pre. Disclaimer: I 100% understand that I installed the kernel at my own risk, and don't blame the developers or anyone at this forum if the uber kernel is indeed what bricked my phone.

    Given the way that my Pre seems to be (not) responding, I actually don't think that the uber kernel has anything to do with it, but I wanted to post it just in case anyone else has had any similar issues.

    Timeline of events:

    1) 800mhz patched kernel had been running well for a few weeks.
    2) Uninstall 800mhz kernel and install uber kernel and govnah. Life is good.
    3) Works well for 2 days--had a couple of crashes, but they appeared to be the normal sort that come with WebOS 1.4.x.
    4) Go camping for the weekend. Power off phone and place in padded pocket on top of pack. Didn't get wet, dropped, or anything else.
    5) Get back to trailhead, and turn phone back on. Nothing happens.
    6) Pull the battery and try to turn on again. Briefly see the Palm logo, then phone turns back off. Try several more times, but cannot get phone to turn on at all.
    7) Get home and charge phone (wall charger, not touchstone or USB) for several hours. No dice.
    8) Try pulling battery a bunch more times. Nothing.
    9) Try doing the power button + mute rocker reset. Nothing.
    10) Wonder if the power switch has gone bad, so pull off the switch and use a small screwdriver to press the switch and repeat the above. Nothing.
    11) Try webos doctor (volume up + plug in USB). Nothing.

    So in short, it looks like I have a totally bricked Pre. I can't get it to even *start* to boot. Since the screen won't turn on, I don't think it's related to the uber kernel--I don't know much about the architecture of the Pre, but I'd imagine that it'd at least have to do the equivalent of POSTing before even loading the kernel, and it doesn't get that far.

    If anyone has any other ideas, I'm certainly open to trying them. Otherwise, I just wanted to bring this up in case it happens to anyone else.
  2.    #422  
    Quote Originally Posted by aravenel View Post
    Installed the uber kernel a few days ago, and wanted to report what could possibly be a bug that bricked my pre. Disclaimer: I 100% understand that I installed the kernel at my own risk, and don't blame the developers or anyone at this forum if the uber kernel is indeed what bricked my phone.

    Given the way that my Pre seems to be (not) responding, I actually don't think that the uber kernel has anything to do with it, but I wanted to post it just in case anyone else has had any similar issues.

    Timeline of events:

    1) 800mhz patched kernel had been running well for a few weeks.
    2) Uninstall 800mhz kernel and install uber kernel and govnah. Life is good.
    3) Works well for 2 days--had a couple of crashes, but they appeared to be the normal sort that come with WebOS 1.4.x.
    4) Go camping for the weekend. Power off phone and place in padded pocket on top of pack. Didn't get wet, dropped, or anything else.
    5) Get back to trailhead, and turn phone back on. Nothing happens.
    6) Pull the battery and try to turn on again. Briefly see the Palm logo, then phone turns back off. Try several more times, but cannot get phone to turn on at all.
    7) Get home and charge phone (wall charger, not touchstone or USB) for several hours. No dice.
    8) Try pulling battery a bunch more times. Nothing.
    9) Try doing the power button + mute rocker reset. Nothing.
    10) Wonder if the power switch has gone bad, so pull off the switch and use a small screwdriver to press the switch and repeat the above. Nothing.
    11) Try webos doctor (volume up + plug in USB). Nothing.

    So in short, it looks like I have a totally bricked Pre. I can't get it to even *start* to boot. Since the screen won't turn on, I don't think it's related to the uber kernel--I don't know much about the architecture of the Pre, but I'd imagine that it'd at least have to do the equivalent of POSTing before even loading the kernel, and it doesn't get that far.

    If anyone has any other ideas, I'm certainly open to trying them. Otherwise, I just wanted to bring this up in case it happens to anyone else.
    Yes, if it was a software problem related to the Uber-Kernel, then the bootloader would still work and the volume up recovery procedure would allow you to webOS Doctor the phone. So we can rule out a software problem.

    In fact, because the phone was dead, and you pulled the battery and put it back in and then briefly saw the palm logo, then that would indicate that the CPU is still fine and it's perhaps a battery problem - unless for some extremely unusual reason the CPU just happened to completely die at that very moment briefly after you turned it on, when it still would have been operating at normal stock frequencies because the Uber-Kernel boots at Palm frequencies and does not overclock until another script or service tells it to well after the boot has started (this is one of the 7 principles of kernel design and packaging at http://bit.ly/next-gen-kernels specifically designed to be fail-safe in these situations).

    Perhaps there is a problem with the battery where it will simply not accept a charge. Do you know someone with another webOS device where you can test the battery? Do you have access to another battery?

    I would not give up on this device yet. The fact that it was off for a long period, and then gave a short burst of the Palm logo says to me that the phone is fine, but just not getting power from the battery.

    Thanks for reporting it in this thread - overclocking is inherently a risky activity, since you are operating a device outside of its guaranteed specification limits, so it is right to not discount overclocking itself (as opposed to any particular kernel) as a possible cause for any failure, hardware or software.

    People need to understand the risks they are taking (as you stated clearly at the top of the message that you are) so reminders like this (even though I don't think your phone is actually dead, just your battery) are good to have from time to time for those people who may not have it in the forefront of their minds that this could possibly happen to them as a result of overclocking, and that they are taking the full burden of that risk upon themselves by doing it, and have no legal or moral recourse to Palm, their carrier, or WebOS Internals if it does happen to them.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 05/03/2010 at 07:36 AM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
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  3. #423  
    So is it a definite that whenever the phone is on the Touchstone it will have to have the settings re-applied? That's unfortunate if so since my phone lives on the TS at work.
  4. #424  
    @aravenal Yeah I agree with Rod, that sounds more like a battery drained so much that it won't accept a charge than it does a totally dead phone. This sounds ridiculous (and probably is), but you could try getting the battery nice and warm and then charging it? If it's warmer to start with, that might help out the chemistry going on in the battery since reactions generally go faster at higher temperatures.
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    #425  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    So is it a definite that whenever the phone is on the Touchstone it will have to have the settings re-applied? That's unfortunate if so since my phone lives on the TS at work.
    Everything seems to work fine with my Touchstone except the screenstate governor. Even then, you don't have to reapply, just manually turn the screen off then back on after you pick the Pre up from the Touchstone.
  6. #426  
    I have been following his thread with a lot of interest. Currently using the SPK at 800 on a Sprint Pre and am very happy - very fast no problems that I can see except that in the morning after charging all night sometimes when I pick up my Pre it is off and when I try to turn it on it reboots, but then after that its fine all day and thats not every day. Still, despite being happy at the moment, but thinking of switching to Uberkernel primarily for two reasons:

    1) I like the fact that the Uberkernel is built around 1.4.1.1 and
    2) I like that it has the built in CPU Temp sensor

    I do have a few questions.

    1) I like the seven principles that guide your work and have always loved that you guys are so safe, but I must admit I am not enamored of the idea of having to turn on the overclocking manually after every time I reboot or turn on. And I do not use TS but does it also need to be manually reset after plugging in for charging? Can you help me understand what the dangers are and why it needs to always start at standard speed, and why it needs to go back to standard speed when charging etc? Given that overclocking is already risky, how much additional risk am I taking on by using a kernel that does not have this safeguard?

    2) I am interested in but skeptical of scaling. How fast does it scale up when you turn the screen on? Doesn't that create any kind of hang up or pause while it is getting up to speed?My screen is on and off all day often dozens of times in seconds or minutes while in my hand, as I think is probably normal use. Also, I know its not the same, but I have stuck in my mind that for a hard drive to suddenly speed up or slow down is damaging.

    3) Do you have to use Govnah and scaling to use Uberkernel, Can it be used without scaling?

    4) Can I use Govnah and scaling with SPK?

    5) With SPK I have been monitoring the Battery Temp. How different is the CPU temp? Is it generally hotter or cooler? by how much? Is there a relationship between the two temps that might help me to gauge my CPU temp approximately by looking at Battery Temp, just to make me have a better handle on CPU temp until I make the switch?

    6) I know CPU temp is what counts but for now, monitoring battery temp, here is what I found: With the first 800 kernel, I had a problem that I was running hot when I streamed data of any kind. Typically it would get to between 49-52C but seemed to run fine. I was advised to try switching from an Amzer 2800 battery to a Seido 2600 battery and to try uninstalling and reinstalling. I did all that. no change. Gave up and just let it run and didnt worry about the heat as seemed fine. That same person advised in a forum that up to 50C for 8 hours was testing as safe. So I figured I was in the range since I was not streaming more than maybe an hour. Later I switched to SPK and now it seems to overheat less often and when it does to stay more around 45. Is that safe? For reasons You will understand and I do not need to go into here I am a little uncomfortable relying on the advice from the person who gve it previously (if that needs explanation PM me). So my question is... what do you consider safe temp range for battery and for CPU?

    7) Are you aware of any issues with the SPK on Sprint that in your mind are enough of red flags that I should get off now? I will make the change in any case, its just a matter of when. Kind of hoping you will find a safe way to leave over-clocking on always but maybe that is just pipe-dreaming.

    8) can you list all the guys involved in the development and maintaining of Uverkernel and Govnah and what their roles have been? Though I am sure it was unintentional, there was some confusing and misleading info out there about who able helpful to actually developed SPK. That confusion did not involve you or anyone I am aware of on your team (in fact I think some on your team were unfairly affected by it) but it would be helpful to have that out front as often as possible as so many of us pick up these forums mid-thread and miss that crucial. Maybe you could all list each other in your forum sig...

    9) I now see what I think unless I am mistaken is discussion of yet another kernel modification after Uberkernel (or along side it). Can you comment on this? Who is doing it and how does it differ from Uberkernel?

    10) I cannot seem to figure out how to add the test stream in Preware. Can you give step by step directions.

    Thanks so much to you and to all the guys on your Uberkernel team and at WOI generally. You are all brilliant and so unbelievably generous with your time and talents. For all that is amazing about this community, there would be no Pre -Community (and maybe no Pre!) without you.

    Steve
  7. #427  
    Fired up preware this morning; noted that there were updates to Govnah and the uber-kernel.
    Tried to update uber-kernel thru preware; got IPKG error.
    Closed out preware; re-opened, updated feeds.
    Now...updated uber-kernel not available (though available as 'fresh' install)
    Tried to update/install uber-kernel; same IPKG error.
    Restart performed; now uber-kernel does not register as installed at all (and is missing from my launcher page now too)
    Fired up preware again; installed recovery kernel for 1.4.1; restart
    Fired up preware again; install fresh uber-kernel; good install finally; restart

    So now its working! Is the intention for updates to the uber-kernel to work through the preware update process? Coz while I was eventually succesful; it really did not occur like I expected it to.

    - Thomas
  8. #428  
    Quote Originally Posted by ravsteve View Post
    I
    10) I cannot seem to figure out how to add the test stream in Preware. Can you give step by step directions.


    Steve
    The URL is located at: Application:Preware - WebOS Internals
    under adding custom feeds.
  9. #429  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSuSE View Post
    Everything seems to work fine with my Touchstone except the screenstate governor. Even then, you don't have to reapply, just manually turn the screen off then back on after you pick the Pre up from the Touchstone.
    This has been my experience also.
  10. #430  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSuSE View Post
    Everything seems to work fine with my Touchstone except the screenstate governor. Even then, you don't have to reapply, just manually turn the screen off then back on after you pick the Pre up from the Touchstone.
    I see the exact same issue. When I take it off the touchstone, it stays at 500 MHz. Turning the screen all the way off and back on appears to fix that fine though. So not a huge deal, but kinda annoying sometimes. Oh well.
  11.    #431  
    Quote Originally Posted by ravsteve View Post
    I have been following his thread with a lot of interest. Currently using the SPK at 800 on a Sprint Pre and am very happy - very fast no problems that I can see except that in the morning after charging all night sometimes when I pick up my Pre it is off and when I try to turn it on it reboots, but then after that its fine all day and thats not every day. Still, despite being happy at the moment, but thinking of switching to Uberkernel primarily for two reasons:

    1) I like the fact that the Uberkernel is built around 1.4.1.1 and
    2) I like that it has the built in CPU Temp sensor

    I do have a few questions.
    First, I'll say that if you are perfectly happy with your current overclocking solution, there is no need to change on a whim. But I can see from your great questions that you are considering this very carefully, so I will give your questions the same amount of due consideration that you are giving to your decision about whether to change.

    1) I like the seven principles that guide your work and have always loved that you guys are so safe, but I must admit I am not enamored of the idea of having to turn on the overclocking manually after every time I reboot or turn on. And I do not use TS but does it also need to be manually reset after plugging in for charging? Can you help me understand what the dangers are and why it needs to always start at standard speed, and why it needs to go back to standard speed when charging etc? Given that overclocking is already risky, how much additional risk am I taking on by using a kernel that does not have this safeguard?
    Note that turning things on manually is a temporary situation. As soon as we have all the installation and upgrade stuff completely smooth for all people, then we'll turn our attentions to safe auto-start of overclocking.

    The main risk we want to protect against is if you select a configuration that simply does not work on your device (remember that all devices operate slightly differently when outside of their guaranteed specification limits, so there's a good chance that you can find a set o governor and cpu scaling parameters that will cause your particular device to hang). If you were to select such a bad configuration for your device, and it caused your device not to be able to boot, then you would be stuck in a reboot-loop and forced to webOS Doctor your device. We don't want to require anyone to do that, so we're working on auto-start methods that can detect if your last reboot was user-initiated or a crash, and only restart the overclocking if it was a user-initiated reboot.

    2) I am interested in but skeptical of scaling. How fast does it scale up when you turn the screen on? Doesn't that create any kind of hang up or pause while it is getting up to speed?My screen is on and off all day often dozens of times in seconds or minutes while in my hand, as I think is probably normal use. Also, I know its not the same, but I have stuck in my mind that for a hard drive to suddenly speed up or slow down is damaging.
    The speed change for the screenstate governor is virtually instantaneous (there is no "ramp-up" as such). The time required for the Phase-Locked-Loop modules on the SoC to lock to the new frequency is much much smaller than the time taken by your device to resume from sleep as it does many many many times a day when it goes from idle to doing something.

    3) Do you have to use Govnah and scaling to use Uberkernel, Can it be used without scaling?
    You need to select a governor, and set the cpufreq kernel parameters to change the frequency settings of the device. There are many different ways to do that, ranging from manual command line operations through scripts, through automatic services, through mojo applications controlling services.

    If you do not change the governor or cpufreq kernel parameters, then the Uber-Kernel will operate identically to the stock Palm kernel - that is by design.

    4) Can I use Govnah and scaling with SPK?
    Yes, but you will not get the internal CPU temperature, and you will be using a webOS 1.4.0 kernel. The latter is especially bad if you are using a Verizon Pre Plus, as you will be negating the keyboard driver fix for the double typing problem.

    Note that the SPK maintainer has also said that he is no longer maintaining the package, so you would not be expecting any future updates either.

    5) With SPK I have been monitoring the Battery Temp. How different is the CPU temp? Is it generally hotter or cooler? by how much? Is there a relationship between the two temps that might help me to gauge my CPU temp approximately by looking at Battery Temp, just to make me have a better handle on CPU temp until I make the switch?
    The battery temp measures the temperature of the battery, which is predominantly a factor of how quickly the battery is charging or discharging.

    I suggest that you run Uber-Kernel at stock frequencies for a couple of days, and note the internal CPU temperature when you are stressing the device using stock frequencies. That will give you an indication of what the CPU should be guaranteed to handle without any significant lifetime degradation.

    6) I know CPU temp is what counts but for now, monitoring battery temp, here is what I found: With the first 800 kernel, I had a problem that I was running hot when I streamed data of any kind. Typically it would get to between 49-52C but seemed to run fine. I was advised to try switching from an Amzer 2800 battery to a Seido 2600 battery and to try uninstalling and reinstalling. I did all that. no change. Gave up and just let it run and didnt worry about the heat as seemed fine. That same person advised in a forum that up to 50C for 8 hours was testing as safe. So I figured I was in the range since I was not streaming more than maybe an hour. Later I switched to SPK and now it seems to overheat less often and when it does to stay more around 45. Is that safe? For reasons You will understand and I do not need to go into here I am a little uncomfortable relying on the advice from the person who gve it previously (if that needs explanation PM me). So my question is... what do you consider safe temp range for battery and for CPU?
    I personally do not consider the battery temperature to be a reliable indicator of the effect of overclocking on CPU lifetime. Obviously if the battery is working hard, then it will be hot, and that heat will be thermally conducted (in a very imprecise way) to the CPU. But I expect that the heat which arrives at the CPU die as a result of the battery temperature is not that relevant compared to the instantaneous die junction temperature which is being measured by the internal CPU temperature sensor.

    We have put what we think to be a conservative set of internal CPU temperature ranges in the colour coding of the Govnah icon. Of course the calibration of those ranges will probably change over time as lots more people gather data based on the real internal CPU temperature instead of a thermally distant battery temperature.

    7) Are you aware of any issues with the SPK on Sprint that in your mind are enough of red flags that I should get off now? I will make the change in any case, its just a matter of when. Kind of hoping you will find a safe way to leave over-clocking on always but maybe that is just pipe-dreaming.
    We will find a safe way to auto-start overclocking boot, be assured of that. We hate turning it on manually just as much as the next person, but we will not compromise the possibility of reboot-loops (we've had enough of those during experimental kernel testing) just for some short term convenience.

    8) can you list all the guys involved in the development and maintaining of Uverkernel and Govnah and what their roles have been? Though I am sure it was unintentional, there was some confusing and misleading info out there about who able helpful to actually developed SPK. That confusion did not involve you or anyone I am aware of on your team (in fact I think some on your team were unfairly affected by it) but it would be helpful to have that out front as often as possible as so many of us pick up these forums mid-thread and miss that crucial. Maybe you could all list each other in your forum sig...
    I am the founder and self-appointed lead of the WebOS Internals group of developers. All new core developers are invited to join the group based on the opinions of the existing core developers. No-one is coerced into joining the group, nor is anyone rewarded financially for anything they do (apart from a single second-hand Sprint Pre device to use for testing their development output). All donations go into paying for the hardware that runs the open standard homebrew ecosystem, or for such developer devices. No-one (not even myself) is paid any cash for the many many hours of time that they spend working on these things.

    WebOS Internals is a meritocracy - those who do the work make the decisions. We even have things set up so that at least one of the other core developers would be able to wrest control of the domain and servers away from me if I ever turned rogue. We make sure that at least two other core developers have the super-user access rights to fix broken things on the servers and DNS settings, and that also ensures that no one person can be a dictator over the group. Most decisions are by consensus after robust technical discussion.

    Marco (unixpsycho) has done most of the work on the overclocking patches - he has done so for every single script, package or application containing a kernel that has ever been released by anyone for the Palm Pre. He was the developer who created the kernel that was used in all the previous 720MHz and 800MHz patches, scripts, packages and all versions of the Super PreKernel. The person who takes all the credit for the Super PreKernel has never written a line of kernel code.

    I do the packaging of the Uber-Kernel, and I look after the autobuild and repository infrastructure for building, packaging and releasing the kernel. I also help out with kernel development, but far less than Marco and Steve.

    Tom (ka6sox) is the main sysadmin for our servers (webos-internals.org and preware.org). He also did the initial work on the temperature sensor patch, which I finished off and incorporated into the kernel.

    Brandon (oil) does the Govnah Mojo front-end. He does the same for many of the WebOS Internals applications, and I would consider him one of the best Mojo application developers around. The Super PreKernel application was written by Casey@l337tech. The person who takes all the credit for the Super PreKernel did not write a single line of code for that application.

    I do the Govnah C service (the bit which allows the Mojo front-end to control the kernel and get the various measurements from the kernel). The service used in the Super PreKernel was developed by Jason R and Casey@l337tech. The person who takes all the credit for the Super PreKernel did not write a single line of code for that service.

    Steve (sbromwich) and Marco work on bleeding edge experimental kernels. As items from this work become stable (and able to comply with the 7 principles), they make their way to the Uber-Kernel. The screenstate governor is the first example of this.

    Jauder (jhojho) worked on the initial smartreflex patches, and has been involved in reviewing and adjusting the overclocking patch to comply with the 7 principles.

    I think that's everyone.

    9) I now see what I think unless I am mistaken is discussion of yet another kernel modification after Uberkernel (or along side it). Can you comment on this? Who is doing it and how does it differ from Uberkernel?
    Steve and Marco are continually working on new ideas to make webOS faster, more responsive, less likely to crash, and use less power.

    We are considering making their experimental kernels as easy to install as the Uber-Kernel.

    10) I cannot seem to figure out how to add the test stream in Preware. Can you give step by step directions.
    See Testing Feeds - WebOS Internals

    Thanks so much to you and to all the guys on your Uberkernel team and at WOI generally. You are all brilliant and so unbelievably generous with your time and talents. For all that is amazing about this community, there would be no Pre -Community (and maybe no Pre!) without you.
    Thanks for your insightful questions. If only everyone who has looked at this whole kernel situation from the outside was able to see things as clearly as you have ...

    Note that other people not involved with the Uber-Kernel did unparalleled work on testing first generation kernels and supporting the release of those kernels amongst the wider public, and the herculian effort they put into that should not be overlooked or under-appreciated by anyone.

    Even though they have decided to leave the arena of Palm Pre overclocking, they will always hold the special place of being the first to bring overclocking on the Palm Pre to the general public.

    In the past, I have taken issue with their technical decisions (and still do), but have not questioned and do not question their character or motives in any way.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 05/03/2010 at 09:56 AM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  12.    #432  
    Quote Originally Posted by MudShark22 View Post
    Fired up preware this morning; noted that there were updates to Govnah and the uber-kernel.
    Tried to update uber-kernel thru preware; got IPKG error.
    Closed out preware; re-opened, updated feeds.
    Now...updated uber-kernel not available (though available as 'fresh' install)
    Tried to update/install uber-kernel; same IPKG error.
    Restart performed; now uber-kernel does not register as installed at all (and is missing from my launcher page now too)
    Fired up preware again; installed recovery kernel for 1.4.1; restart
    Fired up preware again; install fresh uber-kernel; good install finally; restart

    So now its working! Is the intention for updates to the uber-kernel to work through the preware update process? Coz while I was eventually succesful; it really did not occur like I expected it to.

    - Thomas
    The versions of Preware and Preware Alpha that are currently in the testing feed have fixes for updating kernels. The documentation in the first post of the public release thread (as opposed to this alpha testing thread) explicitly says to remove and then reinstall the kernel, not to update it, due to Preware and Preware Alpha released versions not having the appropriate kernel upgrade code in them until a couple of hours ago. We should have added that to this thread as well. Apologies for your inconvenience. If you update Preware or Preware Alpha from the testing feed, it should work as you would expect for the next update.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  13. #433  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    Being able to leave it installed for a webOS OTA update is another pretty important one.
    How do you determine that a non-stock kernel is OTA safe? Is it just that it has all of the default settings turned on? Are there known problems for kernels that don't have the default settings enabled and go through an OTA update?

    If there's an answer for this already - my apologies. Do you have a link?
    Twitter: dullgeek
  14.    #434  
    Quote Originally Posted by mu7efcer View Post
    How do you determine that a non-stock kernel is OTA safe? Is it just that it has all of the default settings turned on? Are there known problems for kernels that don't have the default settings enabled and go through an OTA update?

    If there's an answer for this already - my apologies. Do you have a link?
    http://bit.ly/next-gen-kernels

    The main ones are that it should refuse to install or update if the webOS version is wrong or if the kernel files are not in a pristine state.

    It should also revert to stock settings if all of the userspace applications which are meant to control it have gone missing.

    Of course, just cause a kernel is not designed to be OTA-safe doesn't mean that you will have a problem on every webOS update. But we believe strongly in those 7 principles of kernel design and packaging, and suggest that you risk needing to visit the webOS Doctor as a worst case scenario if your kernel does not follow them.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  15. #435  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    The versions of Preware and Preware Alpha that are currently in the testing feed have fixes for updating kernels. The documentation in the first post of the public release thread (as opposed to this alpha testing thread) explicitly says to remove and then reinstall the kernel, not to update it, due to Preware and Preware Alpha released versions not having the appropriate kernel upgrade code in them until a couple of hours ago. We should have added that to this thread as well. Apologies for your inconvenience. If you update Preware or Preware Alpha from the testing feed, it should work as you would expect for the next update.

    -- Rod
    Does not appear to have done any harm. Figured that the best thing to do was to "recover" the stock kernel; then install the new one. No worries Rod...good stuff all around!! Been stable and no crashes.

    So next time around; if I update the feed in preware classic and there is an uber-update; should be good to go to "update" rather than re-install?

    - Thomas
  16.    #436  
    Quote Originally Posted by MudShark22 View Post
    So next time around; if I update the feed in preware classic and there is an uber-update; should be good to go to "update" rather than re-install?
    Well, that's what the alpha testing of the new versions is designed to discover

    I've tested a number of upgrade scenarios with the new versions, and it all works for me.

    You would need to be running the alpha testing version of Preware Classic or Preware Alpha. Hopefully they will be released in the next couple of days if there are no issues in the alpha testing phase.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
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  17. #437  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    The main ones are that it should refuse to install or update if the webOS version is wrong or if the kernel files are not in a pristine state.
    Ok. Let's imagine that the stock palm kernel started following these principles. Then the next time there was an OTA update that included the kernel, there'd be a failure of that update due to UberKernel being installed. Wouldn't there?

    Or worse, imagine Palm did *not* follow that principle and released an update that assumes the stock kernel is in place. For example, imagine that they add a new kernel module that's linked against the stock kernel but not UberKernel. And that kernel module is required for the updated Luna to work. Wouldn't that have the potential to cause a reboot loop?

    Doesn't claiming that UberKernel is OTA safe depend too much on what Palm does when they release updates?

    Or am I missing something?

    (Note: I'm not trying to be negative nancy. Just trying to understand.)
    Twitter: dullgeek
  18.    #438  
    Quote Originally Posted by mu7efcer View Post
    Ok. Let's imagine that the stock palm kernel started following these principles. Then the next time there was an OTA update that included the kernel, there'd be a failure of that update due to UberKernel being installed. Wouldn't there?
    We actually rely on Palm's OTA update mechanism being completely oblivious to our kernel installation, and just writing over the top of it. It's what they have done in all OTA updates so far (yes, we examine how they do it very closely each time).

    Or worse, imagine Palm did *not* follow that principle and released an update that assumes the stock kernel is in place. For example, imagine that they add a new kernel module that's linked against the stock kernel but not UberKernel. And that kernel module is required for the updated Luna to work. Wouldn't that have the potential to cause a reboot loop?
    We specifically ensure that the Uber-Kernel is compiled in such a way that if Palm releases a new module *without* changing the base kernel in any way, then it will work perfectly. If they change the base kernel in any way, then the Uber-Kernel will be wiped out and the previous question and answer will come into play.

    Doesn't claiming that UberKernel is OTA safe depend too much on what Palm does when they release updates?
    It depends a lot on what Palm does when they release updates. And we have to take that into account in our design and packaging. If they do something completely surprising, then we're just as likely to get caught out as anyone else.

    It is precisely these questions and the careful thought needed to design and package a kernel installation to be robust in the face of an OTA update which was the reason why it took WebOS Internals so long to release our first public kernel.

    Of course the benefit of those principles (and the cost of not following them) is only seen at the time of the next OTA update containing an incompatible kernel ... so you can get away without complying with the principles for some period of time without anyone knowing any different or caring too much about it. But then you leave a mess for others to clean up after you have gone.

    This is why I have campaigned so strongly on these technical kernel development and packaging issues (at the cost of my own reputation I expect with some people).

    We're only just now seeing the impact of some very wrong technical decisions on those people with Verizon Pre Plus devices who are running kernels that do not comply with the 7 principles ...

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 05/03/2010 at 10:51 AM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
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  19. RMB175's Avatar
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    #439  
    Is it just me or the Govnah doesn't display the CPU tempt in the icon all the time, after the new update.

    I can only see the tempt if I have govnah open in card view. If I close it, the tempt disappears from the icon.
  20.    #440  
    Quote Originally Posted by RMB View Post
    Is it just me or the Govnah doesn't display the CPU tempt in the icon all the time, after the new update.

    I can only see the tempt if I have govnah open in card view. If I close it, the tempt disappears from the icon.
    See http://forums.precentral.net/webos-i...01-govnah.html for details of the latest Govnah release.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
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    All donations go back into development.
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