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  1. #4161  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    I totally agree about the intense confusion in the threads. Because there were not official threads for key apps, users have created their own. If we could have official threads for the apps we could put them as stickies so that they are easily found. Then the opening posts could be kept up to date. Developers could even subscribe to their threads to see if they are getting feedback. We could then close the multitude of erroneous threads. Think how huge that would be.

    We have the same nightmare coming in the patches. Many developers refuse to create threads to allow users to give feedback or ask questions. So users make up their own threads with bogus information. In the absence of communication you get chaos. Later the thread developer cannot correct the opening post for his own patch because he refused to create the thread himself.

    A Wiki page is where you edit the reference material. A thread is where you get feedback and discuss ideas. Just like this. I am sorry that some developers do not want open communication with users. We have had patches that could actually do harm but since the developer refused to have a thread, we had no thread to post a warning in.

    When it comes to finding answers in a forum, users will use the search feature. The search will bring you to specific posts within a thread. Frequently a valid thread will contain data that is outdated or wrong during discussions. For instance take the VKB thread, it is huge and there has been so much work and different strategies and fixes from page 1 to the last page. Users cannot read the entire thread or know that the post they found through search is outdated or current. Something like a wiki is the best place for the most up to date how-to.

    I agree that something like threads are good for ideas and dialog, but far too often they turn into support threads. And then data gets lost and scattered. Good ideas can be hidden quickly.

    I have thought more about what you said regarding writing out each separate step for using EPR and WOSRU to remove all patches and themes. I should list each as a separate step for WOSRU as well. WOSRU is 4 steps not 3 the first time you use it. The second time would be 2 steps.

    4 Steps with WebOS Repair Utility
    1. Click WebOS Repair Utility
    2. Click Options (not needed after the first time)
    3. Click Override Compatibility (not needed after the first time)
    4. Click Scan/Repair

    19 Steps with Preware Emergency Patch Recovery
    If you do not have a theme installed skip to step 10.
    1. Tap Launcher
    2. Tap Preware
    3. Tap Installed Packages
    4. Tap Theme
    5. Tap your theme
    6. Tap Remove
    7. Tap OK to run the script
    8. Tap OK to restart your phone
    9. Tap Launcher
    10. Tap Preware
    11. Tap Available Other
    12. Tap Linux Applications
    13. Tap Utility
    14. Tap Emergency Patch Recovery
    15. Tap Install.
    16. Exit Preware
    Restart your phone:
    17. Press and hold the ON/OFF button for 8 seconds
    18. Tap Power
    19. Tap Restart

    It's not fair to suggest that an average user to do the 19 step EPR procedure when WOSRU is 4.
    It's not fair to expand the simplistic task of tapping your touchscreen into 19 steps like that, while minimizing the simplistic task of dragging your mouse and clicking start menu etc... into a handful of steps to emphasize your point.

    RU and EPR do two distinctly different things. RU uses the webos doctor image to guarantee a file replacement from a specific webos version. EPR uses dynamically backed up files to recover to the point before the file was first touched by APT.

    EPR should really only be used for a quick OTA emergency patch recovery/removal. Otherwise if you want a robust way of recovering stock files, RU is the way to go.

    The future of APT and preware will resolve your immediate issues with regards to EPR, just not in the specific ways you have suggested.

    For instance my goal before the next update is to have APT completely OTA compatible, meaning that EPR will not be required to run before an update, after an update, or probably ever. The future in my mind will be something like:

    1) update WebOS
    2) Launch Preware (update feeds)
    3) Tap Update All

    -Eric G

    WebOS Internals Developer.
    Follow me on Twitter for updates to my projects: | Virtual Keyboard | wIRC | SuperTux | AUPT | KeyBoss | freeTether |

    Donate
  2. #4162  
    Brandon,

    Thank you for starting the Luna Manager Thread!

    I closed the two Luna Manager Threads started by users and referred them to this "official" thread. One was by Shadavision so it was not just the newbies who did not know what Luna Manager was.

    I also found 14 threads that included conversation about Luna Manager in the past week and posted links in those threads so that they could find the new Luna Manager information here.

    I personally never had a clue what a Rescan was nor really when you needed a Java Restart so I learned something too.

    I can now put Luna Manager in the Preware article. They have a great place to get an overview now and a link for more detailed information.

    In the future, when more threads get started on Luna Manager, I have an official thread to them into. That way a search will not pick up those bogus threads.

    Thanks, Oil!

    - Craig
  3. #4163  
    Will I loose my profile if I install preware ?
    Thanks
  4. #4164  
    Quote Originally Posted by dosiac View Post
    Will I loose my profile if I install preware ?
    Thanks
    No. not at all. Preware is very very VERY safe.

    Rick
  5. #4165  
    Preware question.

    How is Preware able to look at a patch that I have installed and know for a fact it is a theme? That is, how is Preware always able to correct put a theme patch under Installed Packages → Theme?

    Conversely how is Preware able to know for a fact that apps, patches, and services are not themes?

    Does Preware us the package metadata Type: Theme to know for a fact if a package is a theme?

    Whatever Preware is using has to accurate or we would have a hundred threads saying Preware thinks my theme is a patch and vice-versa.

    - Craig
  6.    #4166  
    The pcakages metadata that comes through the feed tells us what type of package it is for grouping: Packaging Standards - WebOS Internals

    If a package is removed from the feed, and therefore preware recieves no metadata for it, it gets filed under the "Unknown" type.

    We added code at one point to attempt to "fix unknown" packages by loading control files and appinfo files already on the pre, but it wasn't reliable, and now defaults to off.
  7. #4167  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    Package Manager Service 0.9.22 has been released.

    There are no functional changes, other than some modifications to the framework to make sure that Preware will remain functional across the 1.3.1 to 1.3.5 transition.

    It's safe to install on any current publicly released or early access webOS version.

    -- Rod
    I again got the Package Service Manager Does Not Automatically Restart on Update error on both of my Pre's when updating to Package Service Manager 0.9.22.

    To repeat the error:
    1. Install an previous versing of Package Service Manager on your Pre.
    2. Tap Launcher → Preware → Package Updates → Package Service Manager → Update

    Preware will install Package Service Manager 0.9.22 and states that when you click OK, it will restart the phone.

    But it doesn't.

    Could it be that PMS has the same postinst reset flag problem that keeps EPR from automatically restarting after EPR is installed?
    Quote Originally Posted by emoney_33 View Post
    ...I should have added the restart flag to the EPR postinst...
    Please start the official Package Service Manager thread so that problems like this can be reported there. Then I can close some of the other out-of-date Package Service Manager threads:

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...r-preware.html

    http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-...e-manager.html

    http://forums.precentral.net/general...d-1-3-1-a.html

    http://forums.precentral.net/webos-i...reware-qi.html

    http://forums.precentral.net/webos-p...-services.html

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...r-service.html

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...r-service.html

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...ger-error.html

    http://forums.precentral.net/general...uncorrect.html

    http://forums.precentral.net/webos-p...t-working.html

    http://forums.precentral.net/general...vice-help.html

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...visibilty.html

    We don't want to sticky any one of these threads but I need to give a link to the PMS thread in the Getting Started: Preware article.

    Also, right now when people search on Package Service Manager they are getting a lot of out of date threads...and none of the Preware team can update those opening posts.

    - Craig
  8. #4168  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    I suspect you did not reboot the Pre between removing the Package Manager Service and restarting Preware, so you're not replicating the scenario where someone simply installs Preware. If you can provide a repeatable test case that starts with a Pre that does not have ipkgservice on it, and has been rebooted, then please join the IRC channel and we can work out what is happening.
    Isn't the Package Service Manager supposed to set the restart flag in the postinst?

    That way when you update, remove, or install Package Manager Service and it will do the restart that you need?

    To replicate the error:
    1. Use WebOS Quick Install → Device Management to remove Package Manager Service
    2. Tap Launcher → Preware

    Here is the screenshot of what you will see:


    This is the error that we hear about time and again when users talk about how everything is grayed out!

    Now use Luna Manager to do a Luna Reset. Preware still shows the same Grayed Out screen.

    It is only when you do a Java Reset that it now will give the error:


    But now if you do a Luna Reset you are in big trouble. This is the Black Screen of Death users have tried to describe! I can't take a screenshot because everything is dead.

    At first I thought that Preware had just blown out my wallpaper and I tried to reset it but it would not let me see any photos! This is what users are describing!

    Then I noticed that it could not longer lock on Sprint or find my WiFi. Users have been telling the truth when they say you can't take a screenshot of the Black Screen of Death!

    Possible suggestions to fix these bugs:
    1. When you update, remove, or install Package Manager Service, the PMS ipk should set the restart flag in the postinst.
    2. If Preware starts and the Package Manager Service is not running, could it always give the error message shown above, not just after a Java Restart.

    Again, this kind of bug report should be in the Package Manager Service thread.

    - Craig
    Attached Images Attached Images
  9. #4169  
    The Package Manager Service only requires a Java Restart (for which the only visible effect is that your cellular connection drops and your phone becomes sluggish for 30 seconds, just like it says in the popup), rather than a Luna Restart (for which you see a complete restart of the user interface).

    Perhaps now you see why the two Restarts cannot be called one thing - they are different.

    -- Rod
  10. #4170  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    To replicate the error:
    1. Use WebOS Quick Install → Device Management to remove Package Manager Service
    2. Tap Launcher → Preware
    PMS is a dependency of Preware, you should not be able to uninstall it alone.

    -Eric G

    WebOS Internals Developer.
    Follow me on Twitter for updates to my projects: | Virtual Keyboard | wIRC | SuperTux | AUPT | KeyBoss | freeTether |

    Donate
  11. #4171  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    The Package Manager Service only requires a Java Restart (for which the only visible effect is that your cellular connection drops and your phone becomes sluggish for 30 seconds, just like it says in the popup), rather than a Luna Restart (for which you see a complete restart of the user interface).

    Perhaps now you see why the two Restarts cannot be called one thing - they are different.

    -- Rod
    I see how a Luna Restart is totally different than a Java Restart that is totally different than a Restart. And I cannot get the Black Screen of Death by immediately doing a Luna Restart after a Java Restart. It gives an error that PMS is not available.

    But my questions are:

    1. When you update, remove, or install Package Manager Service, could PMS ipk set the restart flag in the postinst?
    2. If Preware starts and the Package Manager Service is not running, could Preware always give the error message shown above, not just after a Java Restart?

    - Craig
  12.    #4172  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder
    1. When you update, remove, or install Package Manager Service, the PMS ipk should set the restart flag in the postinst.
    The IPK doesn't set any kind of flag, the flag is contained within the feed metadata. It is set FOR the ipk not BY it.


    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder
    2. If Preware starts and the Package Manager Service is not running, could it always give the error message shown above, not just after a Java Restart.
    If it is truely not running, the service manager responds to the app when it requests something from the service to tell the app that the service it requested isn't running, and that error response is what keys the "it's not running" message. You HAVE to restart java after installing or removing any java services. There is simply no way around that. The service is loaded and running in memory, the only way to clear it out, is to restart java.

    In your example screenshot that shows everything grayed out but the installed packages item, I can tell you with ∞% (that infinity percent) certainty that the service is still running. As without the service, preware would have no way of knowing you have 84 packages installed, the service is what tells preware that those things are installed.

    Now, I don't know why quickinstall or the prerem (pre removal) script didn't restart java (the required restart for java services,) as I had nothing to do with either of them, but the problem you're experiencing is in one of those two places, NOT with preware. The problem is most likely in the prerem script for the package manager. It appears to have ran (and removed all your feeds, hence all the "available" sections being grayed out) but it didn't restart java.


    Quote Originally Posted by emoney_33
    PMS is a dependency of Preware, you should not be able to uninstall it alone.
    I don't think quickinstall checks the feed or control file to see if anything installed depends on the package you're trying to remove. (I could be totally wrong, perhaps jason could comment.)
    Last edited by oil; 12/04/2009 at 04:19 PM.
  13. #4173  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    To replicate the error:
    1. Use WebOS Quick Install → Device Management to remove Package Manager Service
    2. Tap Launcher → Preware
    When WebOS Quick Install correctly supports package dependencies, it should not allow you to perform step 1 before you (or it) has also removed Preware.

    Please petition Jason to support package dependencies in WOSQI. That would also simplify the installation instructions (you would only need to install Preware, and WOSQI would automatically install the Package Manager Service due to the package dependency settings).

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  14. #4174  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Possible suggestions to fix these bugs:
    1. When you update, remove, or install Package Manager Service, the PMS ipk should set the restart flag in the postinst.
    2. If Preware starts and the Package Manager Service is not running, could it always give the error message shown above, not just after a Java Restart.
    1. It already does. See lines 14 and 15 of git.webos-internals.org Git - preware/build.git/blob - services/ipkgservice/Makefile - if some tools are not taking notice of that, then we need to fix those tools. As far as I can see from decompiling the code, WebOS Quick Install is looking at the flags and doing a java restart.

    2. It already does. As oil noted above, if Preware is showing package numbers, then the service is running. There is obviously a problem somewhere, but it is not where you think it is.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 12/04/2009 at 04:37 PM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  15. #4175  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    To replicate the error:
    1. Use WebOS Quick Install → Device Management to remove Package Manager Service
    2. Tap Launcher → Preware

    Here is the screenshot of what you will see:


    This is the error that we hear about time and again when users talk about how everything is grayed out!
    I am unable to replicate that error on the 1.3.1 Emulator. I'll need the contents of your /var/log/messages file to debug further.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  16. #4176  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Possible suggestions to fix these bugs:
    1. When you update, remove, or install Package Manager Service, the PMS ipk should set the restart flag in the postinst.
    2. If Preware starts and the Package Manager Service is not running, could it always give the error message shown above, not just after a Java Restart.
    1. It already does...
    2. It already does...
    Rod,

    Please try the bug sequence I gave for number 1:
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    To repeat the error:
    1. Install an previous versing of Package Service Manager on your Pre.
    2. Tap Launcher → Preware → Package Updates → Package Service Manager → Update
    Would you post the ipk for PMS 21 so I can test it again?

    When you install the 22 PMS update, it says to click OK to begin a restart now but it does not do w restart.

    As to number 2, I have shown how to replicate the error. Have you tried those steps and the bug did not appear?

    Also, please start a PMS thread. That is where all of this PMS discussion should be.

    What is the advantage of not allowing an official PMS thread? I gave a partial list of the the PMS threads that others have started because there is not a real PMS thread.

    Thanks for the continued dialog.

    - Craig
  17. #4177  
    It has taken a bit but I can now show you the screen shots to document the Package Service Manager Automatic Restart Bug (PMSAR). The PMSAR bug is completely repeatable.

    This simulated the situation where a user has an older version of Package Service Manager installed and a new version has become available.
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    To repeat the error:
    1. Install a previous versing of Package Service Manager on your Pre.
    http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/webos-...0.9.21_all.ipk
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    2. Tap Launcher → Preware → Package Updates → Package Service Manager
    You will get this screen:


    5. Tap Update and PMS gives the Popup it should:

    Java Restart is Required
    Once you press Ok your phone will lose
    network connection and be unresponsive
    until it is done restarting.



    6. Tap OK as instructed.
    Instead of performing the Java Restart it said would occur when you pressed OK, Preware goes back to the Package Service Manger Information Screen!


    @ Oil and rboatright, Can you replicate the PMSAR bug on your Pre's?

    @Rod, Can you replicate the PMSAR bug on your emulator?

    Is the PMSAR bug due to the fact that the Package Manager Service ipk removal, update, or install should set the restart flag in the postinst?

    Sorry it took me so long to get the PMSAS bug accurately documented.

    Thanks for the continued dialog.

    - Craig
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 12/07/2009 at 03:28 PM.
  18. #4178  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Java Restart is Required
    Once you press Ok your phone will lose
    network connection and be unresponsive
    until it is done restarting.


    ...

    6. Tap OK as instructed.
    Instead of performing the Java Restart it said would occur when you pressed OK, Preware goes back to the Package Service Manger Information Screen!

    A java restart does not change the GUI, aside from making your phone go offline for a bit while it restarts all of the java services in the background. This is not a bug you are listing, rather it is how it works. If you minimize preware after you hit ok to restart java you should see in the top left "Phone Offline" for about 5-10 seconds while java services are restarted.

    -Eric G

    WebOS Internals Developer.
    Follow me on Twitter for updates to my projects: | Virtual Keyboard | wIRC | SuperTux | AUPT | KeyBoss | freeTether |

    Donate
  19. #4179  
    Quote Originally Posted by emoney_33 View Post
    A java restart does not change the GUI, aside from making your phone go offline for a bit while it restarts all of the java services in the background. This is not a bug you are listing, rather it is how it works. If you minimize preware after you hit ok to restart java you should see in the top left "Phone Offline" for about 5-10 seconds while java services are restarted.
    Thanks!

    Now I get it!

    - Craig
  20. #4180  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Also, please start a PMS thread. That is where all of this PMS discussion should be.
    http://forums.precentral.net/webos-i...r-service.html

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals

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