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  1. #4141  
    Quote Originally Posted by rboatright View Post
    I agree. Big red box. and a pointer to the installation instructions.

    Doable. Let's try to convince Rod and Oil.
    Already convinced after the first post.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
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  2.    #4142  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Luna Manager
    It would be fine if your Luna Manager thread opening post just told what the three commands do and had a link to the Wiki. But there needs to be a thread in PreCentral or people will create there own and then they control *your* content. Also, the Wiki is the lookup reference tool not the discussion thread. The discussion thread lets a user post questions and offer suggestions. The Wiki page or the app itself may be updated based upon the thread discussion.

    User discussion threads are not a necessary evil. They are a vital source of information for the user and the developer.

    If possible I would like to keep the Getting Started Preware in one place so that there is only one place to update and just link to that. I want it to be a living document evolving with Preware. Once the article is ready it will move out as a blog article on the main page and the thread op will just be the link to it.
    I already said I would make a luna manager thread. But once preware is doing the luna restarts after patch installs, luna manager will go back into obscurity where it was happily living before, where people who were using it know what it does and why they're using it.


    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Preware in the Homebrew Gallery
    Keeping the Preware ipk out of the Homebrew Gallery listing does nothing to keep users from installing it with Filecoaster. Just paste this link:

    http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/webos-...0.9.12_all.ipk
    Right, but we don't tell people to copy/paste the link into filecoaster. We don't tell people to only install half of what makes preware work. Imagine the number of problems would have if that was something we were pushing it by putting the ipk in precentrals gallery and telling people to install it with filecoaster.


    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Preware Update Pop-up
    You already have the ability to show that Preware or PMS has an update available. It just can't be that much to add a pop-up on startup asking if you want to update. It is so important. Think of the hundreds of problem posts we have seen over this one issue.
    Because popups get in the way. If its all installed properly the update will be clearly labeled and people will have no trouble finding it and installing it. The popup won't solve people having problems with the package manager, if the package manager isn't working preware won't know there is any update. Preware gets all that information from the package manager. You're trying to solve a "chicken or the egg" problem here.
  3. #4143  
    Ok so I had to run webos doctor which is a huge bummer...and now that I have preware and PMS installed ....i can't seem to navigate through the preware to find all the patches that I had on my phone once before...I am located in a pretty stubborn area of the US called Yuma AZ and I tried using Webos Quick install but can't seem to get a good connection to go through the online repository to get some of the patches from there...any help that you PROS can give on how to navigate through preware to find those patches? please thank you.
  4. mxu030's Avatar
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    #4144  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilpinkeye View Post
    man, remove preware...bu bu bu but why?? lol

    The Doctor is always in.
    Well if I ever need to sell it I imagine the buyer would expect a clean handset.
  5. #4145  
    Quote Originally Posted by Templarian View Post
    ...Marketing Preware needs to be done differently...
    Austin, truer words were never spoken.

    The first step to marketing Preware is to make it marketable to people who are not 140 IQ IT nerds.

    Here is the test. Think of someone in your life who hates the technology. It had better be fast and easy or they will just never do it. That person represents 98% of the market Preware needs to address. We are the 2% nerd minority.

    That is the reason that I am doing the Getting Started: Preware article.

    When we make notes, they are shorthand at best. The Preware Installer instructions were: Developer Mode, Run Preware Installer, Press INSTALL. Launch Preware.

    The only problem is that unless you know what that means and the 21 missing steps you are SOL.

    So what is the best, quickest way to tell a newbie soccer mom how to remove all of her patches and themes before a webOS update?

    3 Steps with WebOS Repair Utility
    1. Click WebOS Repair Utility
    2. Click Options → Override Compatibility
    3. Click Scan/Repair

    4 Steps with WebOS Quick Install
    1. Click WebOS Quick Install
    2. Click Tools → Device Management
    3. Check each application and patch then click Uninstall and Close.
    4. Click Tools → Themer → Revert to Default

    19 Steps with Preware Emergency Patch Recovery
    If you do not have a theme installed skip to step 10.
    1. Tap Launcher
    2. Tap Preware
    3. Tap Installed Packages
    4. Tap Theme
    5. Tap your theme
    6. Tap Remove
    7. Tap OK to run the script
    8. Tap OK to restart your phone
    9. Tap Launcher
    10. Tap Preware
    11. Tap Available Other
    12. Tap Linux Applications
    13. Tap Utility
    14. Tap Emergency Patch Recovery
    15. Tap Install.
    16. Exit Preware
    Restart your phone:
    17. Press and hold the ON/OFF button for 8 seconds
    18. Tap Power
    19. Tap Restart


    Honestly would any of us really put a non-technical friend through the 19 Preware EPR Steps? It would kill us as much as it would kill them.

    Unless I hated the person, I would walk them through the 3 WOSRU steps. It takes a while to run but cleans up everything.

    Can the Preware EPR take fewer steps?

    Yes, it can. EPR can take three steps.

    Quit Talking About Linux
    First, please put a link to EPR to under patches in a new category "Patch Tools". Steps 11. 12. 13. and 14 become:
    11. Tap Available Patches
    12. Tap Patch Tools
    13. Tap Utility
    14. Tap Emergency Patch Recovery

    A step saved but more importantly we don't have to explain Linux to anyone.

    Reset on EPR Automatically
    Next, Preware already does a Luna reset for Eric's VK and for Themes so it has to be able to do the same thing for EPR. Sorry. Please just put up that same pop-up that same screen when exiting EPR:



    You just saved steps 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 are now just step 15:
    15. Tap Install and OK to Restart.
    16. Exit Preware
    Restart your phone:
    17. Press and hold the ON/OFF button for 8 seconds
    18. Tap Power
    19. Tap Restart


    Please use that same pop-up when you exit the patches module. Just add an option on the pop-up to not restart like we discussed.

    EPR Should Remove Themes Automatically
    Our theme module knows when a theme is installed, otherwise it could not put up the Remove button, right? So if a theme is installed, push that Remove button for me. The plumbing has to already be there.

    That saves steps 1 through 8!

    Now here are the steps for Preware EPR.

    6 Steps with Preware Emergency Patch Recovery
    1. Tap Launcher
    2. Tap Preware
    3. Tap Available Patches
    4. Tap Patch Tools
    5. Tap Emergency Patch Recovery
    6. Tap Install then OK

    I would abbreviate that as:
    1. Run Preware: Tap Launcher → Preware
    2. Go to Patches: Tap Available Patches → Patch Tools
    3. Run EPR: Tap Emergency Patch Recovery → Install → OK

    Now taking off every patch and theme is as easy as 1-2-3 with Preware.

    Please let those be the instructions not the 19 steps.

    And since it is no longer an Emergency let's quit calling it an Emergency. Three simple steps is routine. It is not a recovery. It is a remover.

    As long as we are telling people that they will have to do an EMERGENCY RECOVERY!!! every time their phone updates they will never use Preware.

    The name can now be Remove All Patches. You will not have an Emergency with your phone if you use Preware. You won't have to recover from anything. Preware is safe, not a disaster waiting to happen.

    Know why Life Insurance is no longer called Death Insurance? No one will buy Death Insurance.

    Thanks for the great dialog, everyone. Let's keep it going.

    - Craig
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    Last edited by milominderbinder; 12/02/2009 at 11:40 AM.
  6. #4146  
    There are a lot of good points, and I agree that marketing Preware and WOSQI in a different, more effective way would be really good for the community.

    I'm not a developer, and I have no idea how much of all of this discussion is even possible from a programming standpoint, but I know people who are even "above-average" tech-savvy people that are timid about installing anything "homebrew" because they're afraid of bricking their phone, voiding their warranty, etc. A lot of this probably stems from the well-known knowledge that "jailbreaking" your iPhone voids your warranty...and a lot of people I know view "homebrew" in the same way.

    I would like to see a little more emphasis on the fact that Palm really doesn't give a crap what we do to the software of this phone, and we will not void our warranty or contract with Sprint by doing anything (other than maybe MyTether) that this forum has resources toward. I don't think a lot of people even realize that webOS Doctor is FROM PALM.

    ...just my thoughts.
  7. #4147  
    The You Tube Downloader Patch works awesome! Highly recommended!
  8. #4148  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    3 Steps with WebOS Repair Utility
    1. Click WebOS Repair Utility
    2. Click Options → Override Compatibility
    3. Click Scan/Repair

    4 Steps with WebOS Quick Install
    1. Click WebOS Quick Install
    2. Click Tools → Device Management
    3. Check each application and patch then click Uninstall and Close.
    4. Click Tools → Themer → Revert to Default
    Does RU remove the ipkg data or just fix the stock palm files? If the ipkg data isn't removed, then using RU will put you into a state where the patch packages still show as installed however they really are not.

    19 Steps with Preware Emergency Patch Recovery
    If you do not have a theme installed skip to step 10.
    1. Tap Launcher
    2. Tap Preware
    3. Tap Installed Packages
    4. Tap Theme
    5. Tap your theme
    6. Tap Remove
    7. Tap OK to run the script
    8. Tap OK to restart your phone
    9. Tap Launcher
    10. Tap Preware
    11. Tap Available Other
    12. Tap Linux Applications
    13. Tap Utility
    14. Tap Emergency Patch Recovery
    15. Tap Install.
    16. Exit Preware
    Restart your phone:
    17. Press and hold the ON/OFF button for 8 seconds
    18. Tap Power
    19. Tap Restart
    Listing out each step like this makes it seem like a lot more work than it really is. (PS: No need to restart phone after EPR) You could just as easily list out windows desktop steps as

    1) drag mouse to bottom left
    2) click start menu
    3) drag mouse to program files
    4) wait for popout
    5)...


    Reset on EPR Automatically
    Next, Preware already does a Luna reset for Eric's VK and for Themes so it has to be able to do the same thing for EPR. Sorry. Please just put up that same pop-up that same screen when exiting EPR:

    I should have added the restart flag to the EPR postinst, and I will be sure to fix that. It's the EPR package's fault here not Preware, as Preware doesn't do anything special for packages. The VK has the correct flags in the postinst script.

    Please use that same pop-up when you exit the patches module. Just add an option on the pop-up to not restart like we discussed.
    I'm not sure what you mean by patches module? Preware is a generic package installer/manager. All patches are packaged up using AutoPatch Technology as advanced homebrew (i.e. postinst/prerm scripts). Preware has no knowledge or special functionality for any packages.

    I believe something like a notification popup/icon and/or ability to install multiple packages is on the roadmap, which will resolve many of these types of issues. APT has left out the restart flags because restarting Luna for each patch was deemed worse than instructing users to restart luna at the time.

    EPR Should Remove Themes Automatically
    Our theme module knows when a theme is installed, otherwise it could not put up the Remove button, right? So if a theme is installed, push that Remove button for me. The plumbing has to already be there.
    I'm again not sure what you mean by module here? Packages are organized by a Type field (e.g. Patch or Theme) in Preware. There aren't separate modules handling different types of packages. They are all simply .ipk packages, optionally with postinst/prerm scripts. Themes are outside of the scope of patches currently.

    The only reason themes are/were a problem with APT is that they touched text files outside of APT. There are 2 parts to theming, image replacement and patching. We would like to consolidate all of these things under the APT umbrella to make everything compatible and interoperable. But there needs to be a lot of discussions with the major theme creators so that we can be sure to avoid future incompatibility issues.

    And since it is no longer an Emergency let's quit calling it an Emergency. Three simple steps is routine. It is not a recovery. It is a remover.

    As long as we are telling people that they will have to do an EMERGENCY RECOVERY!!! every time their phone updates they will never use Preware.

    The name can now be Remove All Patches. You will not have an Emergency with your phone if you use Preware. You won't have to recover from anything. Preware is safe, not a disaster waiting to happen.
    It is still an Emergency recovery procedure mainly. It was designed so that it would be able to handle non emergency situations as well, but that is not its main nor longterm purpose. EPR comes into play when non-supported situations occur, for example updating without removing all patches etc...

    APT will be growing and becoming more intelligent to better and more automatically handle OTA. EPR will not be as widely needed in the future as it is today.

    Also be sure to understand that it does indeed recover as it does a file replacement with a backed up file. But also keep in mind that backed up file could have been manually modified or otherwise touched prior to the patch being installed.

    Thanks for the great dialog, everyone. Let's keep it going.

    - Craig

    Thank you for your continued commitment and support as well as your awesome work with the instructional!

    -Eric G

    WebOS Internals Developer.
    Follow me on Twitter for updates to my projects: | Virtual Keyboard | wIRC | SuperTux | AUPT | KeyBoss | freeTether |

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  9. #4149  
    Eric,

    Thanks for the dialog!

    WebOS Repair Utility does remove the ipkg data. The patch packages do not show. And it also finds any other stray crap laying around and cleans it all up without touching any data or settings. So WOSRU is 3 steps that truly does it all. Time after time, people who could not fix with EPR can fix with WOSRU.

    I am happy to hear that EPR just needs a Reset flag to be fixed. Any idea on ETA?

    By program module, I mean the definition that PC Magazine has in their encyclopedia. A module is a part of a program. The full program is an application.

    As to patches...

    When I am in Preware and click Available Patches, that moves me to some part of the code that is the Patches Interface that lets me install and remove Patches.

    What is the word to describe a part of program?

    What I am saying is that when I am in Preware and tap Available Patches I go to the Available Patches routine, block, module, subroutine, or thingy.

    When I exit Available Patches by swiping back to go to the main menu, Preware should intercept that transition from Available Patches to the Preware Main Menu and give me a pop-up asking if I would like to do a Quick Restart.


    Note that this wording does not require Preware to track whether a reset is actually needed but is just offering to make it easier when you exit the Available Patches module. This way a user only gets the Restart pop-up once when leaving Available Patches, not after each patch. This same pop-up would be required when exiting Installed PackagesPatch and swiping back to go to Installed Packages. This initial version would have to be fairly straight forward and the benefits would be huge.

    Think how many installing or removing patch problems are just because they did not do a Quick Restart. 1100 posts? 1500?

    The amount of time needed to put in the patch exit Quick Restart pop-up is nominal. The developer time needed to address a thousand frustrated posts every two months is a huge commitment.

    An advanced version would check a flag to see if a patch was installed or removed and just tell you a reset was required. But for now, please just get the basic version working.

    As an aside, please quit calling it a Luna Restart. If you were explaining this to a non-technical person, wouldn't you just call it a Quick Restart? Why is it important that they learn about Luna to use their phone?

    Luna Restart needs to be called Quick Restart.

    Java Restart needs to be called Full Restart.

    Please. They should not have be a member of Mensa to use their phone.

    As an aside, what is APT?

    As to renaming EPR...

    I understand that in the early days EPR was in fact used 99% of the time as an Emergency Recovery by developers and other technical people. It was an emergency. You were desperately trying to recover.

    But today,the vast majority of those nightmares are gone. (Thank you!) Users need EPR when they are uninstalling all patches for a webOS.

    The Emergency Room is where you go if you are dying. Recovery is where you go after surgery. Updating to a new webOS should not require an emergency procedure to recover your damaged phone. You only declare an emergency when the plane might crash.

    If you call it Remove All Patches, you are not going to scare basic users just wanting some cool patches on their phone. If it turns out that they don't like having patch, just remove them all. It's not an emergency. And EPR still works when you really do need to declare a cockpit emergency.

    Better yet, leave EPR as the Emergency Room disaster recovery tool for the developers.

    Copy it to a new file called Remove All Patches which will also check to see if a theme is installed and automatically remove the Theme as well. If Preware is capable of detecting that a Theme is installed and letting the user press the Remove button, Preware can detect a theme and press the Remove button internally when running EPR.

    Thanks again for talking about this.

    - Craig
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  10. DrSuSE's Avatar
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    #4150  
    Personally speaking, most of the above makes sense depending on how refined you want the user experience to be. Luna, Java, and an actual full restart/reboot are three different things though. Luna restarts are pretty quick... so I guess they could be called that. Java restarts are not the same as fully restarting your device, though.

    I don't, however, think it is so much to ask for users to learn a little bit about what they're doing. It'd be different if this was a system in place as part of webOS as shipped (or through some "official" means). It's not, though. *shrug* Again, just a personal opinion.
  11.    #4151  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    When I am in Preware and click Available Patches, that moves me to some part of the code that is the Patches Interface that lets me install and remove Patches.

    What is the word to describe a part of program?
    That is the "package group" scene, and clicking on a "group" eg "App Launcher" takes you to the "package list" scene. The code you see there is the exact same as the code you get when you tap "Available Applications" or "Installed Applications". There is no special code to specifically list patches. There is technically no area for installing and removing patches. All that is there is generic code used by everything for installing and removing packages. Patches are just another package, like applications, services, themes, etc. Preware doesn't treat any package differently then any other package.


    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    As an aside, please quit calling it a Luna Restart. If you were explaining this to a non-technical person, wouldn't you just call it a Quick Restart? Why is it important that they learn about Luna to use their phone?
    So, stop calling it what it is? I really don't get why you have a problem with calling it a luna restart. That is what it is. I don't think people have a problem with learning new terminology. Any new thing you get into has new terminology, and thats how you learn. An example from iphone hacking, why did they call restarting the gui portion of the phones os a "respring" and not just "refresh" or "restart" or "reload"? Because the homescreen/etc is called the "SpringBoard".


    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Java Restart needs to be called Full Restart.
    But a java restart isn't a "Full" restart. A full restart would be actually restarting your phone. All a java restart does is restart java...


    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Please. They should not have be a member of Mensa to use their phone.
    Is that supposed to be a joke?


    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    As an aside, what is APT?
    Auto Patch Technology. It's the method in which simple patch files are turned into a standard package format like everything else we install with preware.


    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    As to renaming EPR...

    I understand that in the early days EPR was in fact used 99% of the time as an Emergency Recovery by developers and other technical people. It was an emergency. You were desperately trying to recover.
    I'm not going to comment on all the EPR discussion because I really don't have anything to do with it. But EPR was created FOR users, NOT just developers and other technical people. People who know would have no problem cleaning up after a bad patch. EPR is an easy way for those who don't know.
  12. #4152  
    Package Manager Service 0.9.22 has been released.

    There are no functional changes, other than some modifications to the framework to make sure that Preware will remain functional across the 1.3.1 to 1.3.5 transition.

    It's safe to install on any current publicly released or early access webOS version.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
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  13. hdhuntr's Avatar
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    #4153  
    Quote Originally Posted by oil View Post
    That is the "package group" scene, and clicking on a "group" eg "App Launcher" takes you to the "package list" scene. The code you see there is the exact same as the code you get when you tap "Available Applications" or "Installed Applications". There is no special code to specifically list patches. There is technically no area for installing and removing patches. All that is there is generic code used by everything for installing and removing packages. Patches are just another package, like applications, services, themes, etc. Preware doesn't treat any package differently then any other package.



    So, stop calling it what it is? I really don't get why you have a problem with calling it a luna restart. That is what it is. I don't think people have a problem with learning new terminology. Any new thing you get into has new terminology, and thats how you learn. An example from iphone hacking, why did they call restarting the gui portion of the phones os a "respring" and not just "refresh" or "restart" or "reload"? Because the homescreen/etc is called the "SpringBoard".



    But a java restart isn't a "Full" restart. A full restart would be actually restarting your phone. All a java restart does is restart java...



    Is that supposed to be a joke?



    Auto Patch Technology. It's the method in which simple patch files are turned into a standard package format like everything else we install with preware.



    I'm not going to comment on all the EPR discussion because I really don't have anything to do with it. But EPR was created FOR users, NOT just developers and other technical people. People who know would have no problem cleaning up after a bad patch. EPR is an easy way for those who don't know.
    I have to support oil here. I am one of those 'regular people' and I think it would just create confusion with other functions to start re-naming things now. I have learned enough by following the directions of the people who name their own work to have installed and run mvapps successfully. I think an attempt to 'dumb it down' would just increase the traffic in the forum of people who not only have problems but don't read for the solutions first. That said, I appreciate milo's other work :-)
    Treo 300,600,650,755p and now Pre
  14. #4154  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Think how many installing or removing patch problems are just because they did not do a Quick Restart. 1100 posts? 1500?
    Any problems with installing or removing a patch cannot be resolved with a restart. Restart only pulls the newly patched or unpatched code into memory so that you can see the effects of the patch installation/removal.

    The amount of time needed to put in the patch exit Quick Restart pop-up is nominal. The developer time needed to address a thousand frustrated posts every two months is a huge commitment.

    An advanced version would check a flag to see if a patch was installed or removed and just tell you a reset was required. But for now, please just get the basic version working.
    The ability to ignore a restart popup (and subsequently throw it to the notifications area to remind you a restart is required) I believe is a part of the todos. I know it's been discussed in past IRC conversations.

    As an aside, what is APT?
    AutoPatch Technology is the logic behind all patch packages in the webos-patches feed. It is also my understanding that all patches via QI as well as through theme builder are APT compliant.

    As to renaming EPR...

    I understand that in the early days EPR was in fact used 99% of the time as an Emergency Recovery by developers and other technical people. It was an emergency. You were desperately trying to recover.

    But today,the vast majority of those nightmares are gone. (Thank you!) Users need EPR when they are uninstalling all patches for a webOS.

    The Emergency Room is where you go if you are dying. Recovery is where you go after surgery. Updating to a new webOS should not require an emergency procedure to recover your damaged phone. You only declare an emergency when the plane might crash.
    It was created for the user, to assist with unsupported and unforeseen text file changes. If all text file modifications are done strictly with APT packages, and patches uninstalled prior to an update, then EPR is not needed. If masses of people started going to the Emergency Room with the common cold, would you call for the ER to be renamed to the Common Room? People are using it as a convenient way to revert all patch packages, and absent a cleaner method I can understand this. The solution is not to rename EPR, it is to work towards a more elegant solution for multi package management and profiles in Preware. Which is currently already on the roadmap.

    If you call it Remove All Patches, you are not going to scare basic users just wanting some cool patches on their phone. If it turns out that they don't like having patch, just remove them all. It's not an emergency. And EPR still works when you really do need to declare a cockpit emergency.

    Better yet, leave EPR as the Emergency Room disaster recovery tool for the developers.
    It's not intended to be a required tool for patching. It is there to help recover when unforeseen and/or unsupported text file modifications happen outside of the scope of APT.

    Copy it to a new file called Remove All Patches which will also check to see if a theme is installed and automatically remove the Theme as well. If Preware is capable of detecting that a Theme is installed and letting the user press the Remove button, Preware can detect a theme and press the Remove button internally when running EPR.

    Thanks again for talking about this.

    - Craig
    Preware does not detect a theme is installed AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK. $The$ $theme$ $packagers$ $put$ $any$ $of$ $that$ $detection$ $in$ $their$ $postinst$ $scripts$. $A$ $theme$ $is$ $also$ $just$ $a$ $package$, $just$ $like$ $apps$, $services$, $patches$ $etc$... $in$ $the$ $eyes$ $of$ $Preware$. $Preware$ $sees$ $the$ $closed$ $box$ $and$ $has$ $no$ $knowledge$ $of$ $what$'$s$ $inside$.


    The main problem that I believe we come accross with user issues is the mountains of outdated and/or wrong information spread out all over the forums. If a user goes to search the forum for their problem, they will come accross multitudes of outdated procedures, advice from misinformed users trying to help, and advice for specific case that is close but not correct for that user.

    What is truly needed is a be-all end-all place for the user to go to answer all their questions. Searching forum for that information only needs to problems. Most users will search for a while, try many different things before
    posting. Or get overwhelmed by all the different and usually conflicting posts.

    Right now the user has no alternative to searching the forum when they need an answer. And that frequently turns up the wrong answer.

    -Eric G

    WebOS Internals Developer.
    Follow me on Twitter for updates to my projects: | Virtual Keyboard | wIRC | SuperTux | AUPT | KeyBoss | freeTether |

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  15. #4155  
    Eric,

    Thank you for your replies.

    A clarification. Users run into problems with patches when they do not restart after installing or removing. They do not understand why the patch did not install or remove. It did happen but they did not see it without the restart. When they post that their patch did not install or remove, invariably the first reply is always, "Did you do a Luna Restart?" The answer back is often, "What's that?"

    If upon exiting the Available Patches menu and going back to the Preware Main Menu, Preware gave a pop-up asking if I would like to do a Restart, it would save hundreds of tech support posts:


    I totally agree about the intense confusion in the threads. Because there were not official threads for key apps, users have created their own. If we could have official threads for the apps we could put them as stickies so that they are easily found. Then the opening posts could be kept up to date. Developers could even subscribe to their threads to see if they are getting feedback. We could then close the multitude of erroneous threads. Think how huge that would be.

    We have the same nightmare coming in the patches. Many developers refuse to create threads to allow users to give feedback or ask questions. So users make up their own threads with bogus information. In the absence of communication you get chaos. Later the thread developer cannot correct the opening post for his own patch because he refused to create the thread himself.

    A Wiki page is where you edit the reference material. A thread is where you get feedback and discuss ideas. Just like this. I am sorry that some developers do not want open communication with users. We have had patches that could actually do harm but since the developer refused to have a thread, we had no thread to post a warning in.

    I have thought more about what you said regarding writing out each separate step for using EPR and WOSRU to remove all patches and themes. I should list each as a separate step for WOSRU as well. WOSRU is 4 steps not 3 the first time you use it. The second time would be 2 steps.

    4 Steps with WebOS Repair Utility
    1. Click WebOS Repair Utility
    2. Click Options (not needed after the first time)
    3. Click Override Compatibility (not needed after the first time)
    4. Click Scan/Repair

    19 Steps with Preware Emergency Patch Recovery
    If you do not have a theme installed skip to step 10.
    1. Tap Launcher
    2. Tap Preware
    3. Tap Installed Packages
    4. Tap Theme
    5. Tap your theme
    6. Tap Remove
    7. Tap OK to run the script
    8. Tap OK to restart your phone
    9. Tap Launcher
    10. Tap Preware
    11. Tap Available Other
    12. Tap Linux Applications
    13. Tap Utility
    14. Tap Emergency Patch Recovery
    15. Tap Install.
    16. Exit Preware
    Restart your phone:
    17. Press and hold the ON/OFF button for 8 seconds
    18. Tap Power
    19. Tap Restart

    It's not fair to suggest that an average user to do the 19 step EPR procedure when WOSRU is 4.

    As always, thanks for the great dialog.

    - Craig
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 12/03/2009 at 07:28 PM.
  16. #4156  
    Thanks for continuing the dialog.

    Preware assumes that the user is fluent in this terminology:

    Package, Service, Feed, Patch, Plugin, GPL, Linux, Terminal, Luna, GNU, Scrim, Top Bar, EVDO, Haptic, DTMF, Unthrottle, CDMA, Swap Threshold, etc.

    Preware uses those words without explaination. For 98% of smartphone users those Geek words might as well be Greek words:

    πακέτο, υπηρεσιών, των ζωοτροφών, μπάλωμα, τερματικών, ταπετσαρία, πάνω, μπαρ, στοιχεία εξέλιξη αισιόδοξος, απτική, διπλή, τόνος, multi, συχνότητα, unthrottle, κωδικός διαίρεσης πολλαπλής πρόσβασης, την αλλαγή του ορίου

    Would you use a program if you had to learn those terms in Greek?

    Last night I went to a funeral for a good friend who had died of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus. Thankfully the doctors were kind enough to tell the family that he had a staph infection called MRSA instead of making them learn methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus.

    As to, "If preware thinks the package manager is not installed, It already tells the user to install it." I have tried again and again on two different Pre's but when I remove PMS and run Preware, I do not get an error message.

    I am encouraged that EPR could be changed to automatically restart after installing. That would be a big step. Any ETA?

    I am encouraged that you could put a link to the Getting Start: Preware in the opening post of this thread and the Homebrew Preware page.

    I asked if the Luna Manager could be in the Homebrew Gallery. It would be fine if the documentation were just a link to the thread or the wiki: "Please see ___."

    I am sorry that the answer was no.

    I showed a mock-up of a screen saying "Restart" instead of "Luna Restart". I was not asking you to change the name of the user interface.

    I am sorry that the answer was no.

    The best musicians are not always the best music teachers. Sometimes the more gifted you are, the more frustrating it is when others do not intuitively understand like you do.

    Thank you for listening and taking the time to explain your positions. I had hoped for a different outcome.

    - Craig
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 12/03/2009 at 05:23 PM.
  17. #4157  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Thanks for continuing the dialog.
    Yep, it's good to have robust discussions about this stuff without it degenerating.

    Preware assumes that the user is fluent in this terminology:

    Package, Service, Feed, Patch, Plugin, GPL, Linux, Terminal, Luna, GNU, Scrim, Top Bar, EVDO, Haptic, DTMF, Unthrottle, CDMA, Swap Threshold, etc.
    Um, a lot of those are words in individual patches, not in Preware.

    You really need to separate the Preware application (and Package Manager Service) from the applications, themes and patches that can be installed via Preware or PreLoad or WebOS Quick Install or wget or whatever.

    As to, "If preware thinks the package manager is not installed, It already tells the user to install it." I have tried again and again on two different Pre's but when I remove PMS and run Preware, I do not get an error message.
    I suspect you did not reboot the Pre between removing the Package Manager Service and restarting Preware, so you're not replicating the scenario where someone simply installs Preware. If you can provide a repeatable test case that starts with a Pre that does not have ipkgservice on it, and has been rebooted, then please join the IRC channel and we can work out what is happening.

    I am encouraged that EPR could be changed to automatically restart after installing. That would be a big step. Any ETA?
    I would suspect in the next release, before webOS 1.3.5 is released.


    I asked if Luna could be in the Homebrew Gallery. It would be fine if the documentation were just a link to the thread or the wiki: "Please see ___."

    I am sorry that the answer was no.
    I believe the answer was "The PreCentral Homebrew Gallery does not allow you to list an application, but not make a URL available for people to erroneously paste into fileCoaster."

    If we really can have a homebrew gallery page which points *only* to a wiki page on webos-internals.org, then I will create the page myself. Let me know.

    I showed a mock-up of a screen saying "Restart" instead of "Luna Restart". I was not asking you to change the name of the user interface. If "Luna Restart" is easier for an average user to understand than just "Restart" then call it Luna Restart.

    I am sorry that the answer was no.
    That is because a Luna Restart is different from a Java Restart is different from a Linux userspace Restart is different from a Linux Kernel Restart.

    It doesn't really matter what the button is called, if it's the only button available to push, and people are told *why* they need to push the button, then the fact that it is labelled correctly (and not *overly* dumbed down) will be the right thing.

    There is a trac ticket raised for the feature request. You can follow it's progress at {3} Active Tickets by Milestone – Preware

    The best musicians are not always the best music teachers. Sometimes the more gifted you are, the more frustrating it is when others do not intuitively understand like you do.
    Please don't take the response in a more harsh tone than what they are intended. There are some things that simply cannot be done. There is some terminology that we believe need to remain, and other means to have that accessible to end-users must be found. There are some great ideas that we have accepted and put in the Trac for implementation as resources allow (note that making sure Preware and all our other apps still work across the 1.3.5 transition must take priority). There are some great ideas that we have already implemented.

    Thank you for listening and taking the time to explain your positions. I had hoped for a different outcome.
    I still think we're all shooting for the same goal, but compromises must be made in a number of areas for us, and significant resourcing effort must be applied (it's an open source project, but we still haven't had any volunteers step forward to help on any of your suggestions) to reach that goal at the same time.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  18. IRhino's Avatar
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    #4158  
    First Post...

    Just installed Preware for the first time. It is not showing "Available Applications' in its main menu. only package updates, available and installed packages, and list of everything.

    Running windows 7 following directions in the 'getting started preware' thread but got stuck when i couldn't download the luna reboot app.

    did searches, didn't find help...anyone?

    Thanks!
    -Ryan
  19. #4159  
    Quote Originally Posted by IRhino View Post
    First Post...

    Just installed Preware for the first time. It is not showing "Available Applications' in its main menu. only package updates, available and installed packages, and list of everything.

    Running windows 7 following directions in the 'getting started preware' thread but got stuck when i couldn't download the luna reboot app.

    did searches, didn't find help...anyone?

    Thanks!
    -Ryan
    Change the "Show Available Types" preference item.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  20. IRhino's Avatar
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    #4160  
    rod - thanks!

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